ESPN's 30 for 30

[Michigan Girl]

. Noone is disputing that Sanders is one of the best ever

I'm reasonably certain that even with my public school education that I can connect the dots here and say that Dan is absolutely "disputing" Sanders' greatness. The argument that Detroit won a few more games after Sanders left is moronic. I'm pretty sure that both the Texas Rangers and Seattle Mariners both won more games when Alex Rodriguez left. Dan obviously hates Sanders and that's more than okay with me. I'm not from Detroit (thank God) but don't respect anyone's football knowledge who truly believes that Barry Sanders wasn't a great football player. Last I checked, Dan Marino still seems to be retired with zero Super Bowl rings and Marino played on MUCH better teams than Sanders ever played on!

I am LMAO ...Detroit dig and all!!

[Saint John]

I'm reasonably certain that even with my public school education that I can connect the dots here and say that Dan is absolutely "disputing" Sanders' greatness. The argument that Detroit won a few more games after Sanders left is moronic. I'm pretty sure that both the Texas Rangers and Seattle Mariners both won more games when Alex Rodriguez left. Dan obviously hates Sanders and that's more than okay with me. I'm not from Detroit (thank God) but don't respect anyone's football knowledge who truly believes that Barry Sanders wasn't a great football player. Last I checked, Dan Marino still seems to be retired with zero Super Bowl rings and Marino played on MUCH better teams than Sanders ever played on!

Sanders is one of the top 10, and maybe top 5, running backs ever. I'm disputing that he's the best, nothing more. Quit putting words in my mouth and making stupid inferences because you're getting smacked around in this argument. You're straying from the argument. I'm giving reasons, and a lot of them, for why he is not the best running back ever. That public school education is showing. You can't even stay on topic.

PS Dan Marino had 8 times as many wins in the playoffs as Sanders and got his team to the second round or farther 7 times. I think it's safe to say the guy tried and cared about winning, his teammates and the fans. That's evidenced by him playing 17 years with the same team and them making the playoffs at only a lit bit better of a percentage than the quitter, but without the pouting or quitting.

[S2M]

His 3.3% career INT % isn't really all that bad. Considering how long he's played, I'm not sure the 166 fumbles are all that bad. I wonder what his % of fumbling the ball compared to numbers of times handled it would be compare to other QBs?

By the way, I looked it up and there are probably more than 100 NFL QB's who have a lower career Int% than Favre. Favre's 3.3% ties him with the immortals like Stan Humphries, Tony Eason (who John Hannah said should wear a skirt), Patrick Ramsey, Steve Dils, Roman Gabriel, Elvis Grbac, Daunte Culpepper, and Joey Harrington. There is a list you want to be keeping company with!

You focus on the INT's....where OG threw the ball more, a lot more than anyone ever did.

Funny though, I never hear you cite Favres NFL career leading 72,000 passing yareds and SB ring? Be fair at least Jonathan.

I consider that SB more Desmond Howard's than Favre's...

[Enigma869]

Funny though, I never hear you cite Favres NFL career leading 72,000 passing yareds and SB ring? Be fair at least Jonathan.

Dean...don't get me started on Favre's ONE RING! Do I have to remind you how many guys have won a single ring or would now be a good time to remind you that it's inexcusable that a guy like Favre didn't win more than one? My stance on Favre will NEVER change. He was an above average NFL QB, who was a complete attention whore, and didn't know when to stop playing. Furthermore, the guy puked on his shoes in big games more than any QB I've ever seen play. Those are the fact's on your beloved "OG". I love you, man, but you're a Favre ball washer with the rest of the ESPN crowd, and the dude simply wasn't nearly as good when you watched him play. The Wrangler commercials were interesting. Sending Jen Sterger a picture of his cock and balls was interesting. Even his "aw shucks" farmboy attitude was interesting. The bottom line is that he lost a lot more games than he should have and is a complete fraud of a human being!

[Enigma869]

I'm disputing that he's the best, nothing more.

That's a different argument. For the record, it wasn't I who said he was the best ever. That was S2M's premise. That said, he was probably the best running back that I ever saw play. I think Bo Jackson could have been that guy, but health simply wasn't on his side.

[YoungJRNY]

His 3.3% career INT % isn't really all that bad. Considering how long he's played, I'm not sure the 166 fumbles are all that bad. I wonder what his % of fumbling the ball compared to numbers of times handled it would be compare to other QBs?

By the way, I looked it up and there are probably more than 100 NFL QB's who have a lower career Int% than Favre. Favre's 3.3% ties him with the immortals like Stan Humphries, Tony Eason (who John Hannah said should wear a skirt), Patrick Ramsey, Steve Dils, Roman Gabriel, Elvis Grbac, Daunte Culpepper, and Joey Harrington. There is a list you want to be keeping company with!

You focus on the INT's....where OG threw the ball more, a lot more than anyone ever did.

Funny though, I never hear you cite Favres NFL career leading 72,000 passing yareds and SB ring? Be fair at least Jonathan.

I consider that SB more Desmond Howard's than Favre's...

Then I consider pretty much all of Brady's Super Bowls to Vinatieri's!

[RedWingFan]

I think Bo Jackson could have been that guy, but health simply wasn't on his side.

The only guy I've seen who could run over a linebacker and outrun every guy in the secondary.....on the same play.

[conversationpc]

I think Bo Jackson could have been that guy, but health simply wasn't on his side.

The only guy I've seen who could run over a linebacker and outrun every guy in the secondary.....on the same play.

Dude had a hell of a throwing arm in baseball also. I seem to remember he could throw a ball from the outfield to home plate while standing flat-footed.

[RedWingFan]

Enjoyed the "Once Brothers" episode. But that is because I was a Divac fan.

Yeah, that one was really good too. The only one I couldn't sit through was "One Night in Vegas", about the night Tupac got shot in Vegas after the Tyson fight.

They tried doing it in some kind of comic book form like Tupac was some kind of superhero or something.

[Saint John]

Barry Sanders: The Ultimate Player To Ruin Drives

Recently there has been a running conversation about Barry Sanders. Someone in the All Time Draft said Barry Sanders was the greatest RB to ever play. I disagreed; adamantly. Barry Sanders was very possibly the flashiest player to ever touch the pigskin, but I can't put him that high on a list because he wasn't truly a great running back. He was just a big play homerun hitter. A great running back doesn't lose 2 yards on 6 consecutive runs and then bust a big one. That's great; that's one long touchdown and 3 or 4 ruined drives.

That's what the guy did his whole career. Afraid of contact, he always took chances in the backfield. Rather than putting his team in a 2nd and 8 situation, he'd dance around and lose 2-5 yards. Nobody put their team in 3rd and long more than Bary Sanders.

Here's more:

This is the recent response that I can't go along with; "over the course of 20-25 carries, that works, but over the course of an entire career that resulted in 15000+ yds that is not the case. His ypg and ypc are things of consistency, and on a weekly basis he was better than anyone else at the position he played. 5 ypc for a career, during this era, is absolutely insane"

5 ypc is great, if it was in any way truly accurate. In his career, Sanders ran 3062 times for 15,269 yards. However, of those 3062 carries, 42 carries were for over 40 yards. So we'll look at those 1.3% of his career carries and show why 5 ypc over his career in no way shows consistency.

1990- 45 yds
1991- 42, 69, 40, 40, 45, 51 yds
1992- 43, 41, 55, 44 yds
1993- 42 yds
1994- 85, 84, 62, 40, 69, 63, 64 yds
1995- 44, 47, 40, 75, 55, 53 yds
1996- 54, 40, 54 yds
1997- 46, 40, 82, 80, 51, 80, 40, 60, 53 yds
1998- 67, 44, 40, 73, 44 yds

Those 42 carries take up 2286 yards. Taking those 42 carries out of his career numbers leaves him with 3020 carries for 12,983 yards, which means for 98.7% of his career he averaged 4.29 ypc. That's a solid number, sure, but that's nothing special in terms of anything. 4.29 ypc would have been the 24th best among RBs in the NFL in 2007.

So Barry Sanders had 42 very long runs in 153 career games, and averaged 4.29 ypc for the rest of his career. That comes down to breaking a long run every 4th game and being an average back the rest of the time. Barry Sanders substantially helped score a TD on one drive every 4th game, and the rest of the time, he was a mediocre back in the NFL. He was very flashy, but he didn't help his team drive the ball down the field like a great back does.

I feel as though this in itself shows Barry Sanders was no where near the top, so I won't even get to the part where he regularly disappeared in big games, and struggled in the postseason...but that's all true too. Barry Sanders MIGHT have been a top 10 RB in the NFL history, but I'm not even convinced of that.

Let's also put to rest the myth that the guy played behind an atrocious line. They were at least average. Lomas Brown was a 7 time Pro-Bowler. Kevin Glover 3 time Pro Bowler, and Jeff Hartings was the Center the last few years there for the Quitter 336 carries for -952 yards crippled his teams. You'd be far better off with a "downhill runner" that gave you 4 yards every play and kept you with constant 3rd and 2 scenarios. Sanders would run for 1, 3, 2, -4, 2, 5, -3, 2, -2, 4, 2, -1 and then 50. That kept his average at or over 5, but it also destroyed 5 drives, while only helping score on one. The guy was simply not the best, not in the top 3, but perhaps in the top 5.

[No Surprize]

Enjoyed the "Once Brothers" episode. But that is because I was a Divac fan.

Yeah, that one was really good too. The only one I couldn't sit through was "One Night in Vegas", about the night Tupac got shot in Vegas after the Tyson fight.

They tried doing it in some kind of comic book form like Tupac was some kind of superhero or something.

I agree with the "One night in Vegas", the worst. I DVR everyone of the 30/30's so here's my pick.

1.The best that never was. Marcus Dupree was a fucking beast!
2.Once Brothers. Great story.
3.Pony Express. Man, them motherfucking redneck spared no expense!
4.The "U". The rise and fall of Hurricane football
5.Without Bias. Sad & tragic story
6.Run, Ricky, Run. It's better to burn out, than to fade away.
7.Muhammad and Larry. Anything about Ali, I'm watching.
8.Small Potatoes, who killed the USFL.
9.The legend of Jimmy the Greek
10.Guru of go.

[RedWingFan]

Barry Sanders: The Ultimate Player To Ruin Drives

Dude, you can subtract whatever the hell you want to get whatever result you want!

But the fact remains, Sanders total numbers are his total numbers and this even though every team that played the Lions had gameplanned with 1 goal. Shut down Sanders! And he STILL would have blown away everyones career rushing totals.

[conversationpc]

Barry Sanders: The Ultimate Player To Ruin Drives

Recently there has been a running conversation about Barry Sanders. Someone in the All Time Draft said Barry Sanders was the greatest RB to ever play. I disagreed; adamantly. Barry Sanders was very possibly the flashiest player to ever touch the pigskin, but I can't put him that high on a list because he wasn't truly a great running back. He was just a big play homerun hitter. A great running back doesn't lose 2 yards on 6 consecutive runs and then bust a big one. That's great; that's one long touchdown and 3 or 4 ruined drives.

That's what the guy did his whole career. Afraid of contact, he always took chances in the backfield. Rather than putting his team in a 2nd and 8 situation, he'd dance around and lose 2-5 yards. Nobody put their team in 3rd and long more than Bary Sanders.

Correction...Their offensive line put them in 3rd and long for the most part, not Sanders. The guy HAD to take chances to even get out of the backfield. This is a crap argument.

Those 42 carries take up 2286 yards. Taking those 42 carries out of his career numbers leaves him with 3020 carries for 12,983 yards, which means for 98.7% of his career he averaged 4.29 ypc. That's a solid number, sure, but that's nothing special in terms of anything. 4.29 ypc would have been the 24th best among RBs in the NFL in 2007.

So Barry Sanders had 42 very long runs in 153 career games, and averaged 4.29 ypc for the rest of his career. That comes down to breaking a long run every 4th game and being an average back the rest of the time. Barry Sanders substantially helped score a TD on one drive every 4th game, and the rest of the time, he was a mediocre back in the NFL. He was very flashy, but he didn't help his team drive the ball down the field like a great back does.

4.3/carry is above average. Most backs in the NFL don't average that.

[SF-Dano]

I think Bo Jackson could have been that guy, but health simply wasn't on his side.

The only guy I've seen who could run over a linebacker and outrun every guy in the secondary.....on the same play.

I don't know if you remember Earl Campbell (Oilers), but that guy could run over and through anybody. That dude was a badass.

[conversationpc]

I think Bo Jackson could have been that guy, but health simply wasn't on his side.

The only guy I've seen who could run over a linebacker and outrun every guy in the secondary.....on the same play.

I don't know if you remember Earl Campbell (Oilers), but that guy could run over and through anybody. That dude was a badass.

Campbell was darn near unstoppable his first three years in the league.

[Saint John]

Correction...Their offensive line put them in 3rd and long for the most part, not Sanders. The guy HAD to take chances to even get out of the backfield. This is a crap argument.

Um, no. Your argument is is crap. The guy was generally afraid of contact and danced around to avoid it. I already debunked the bullshit argument about him having poor lines and pointed out that they had several pro bowlers on their line, including a perennial beast in Lomas Brown.

4.3/carry is above average. Most backs in the NFL don't average that.

Please try to follow along, Dave. I'm not saying that the guy wasn't above average! I've always maintained he was great, and probably one of the 5 greatest backs ever, but there's no way that an emotionless dancer that put his team in many third and longs, showed no fire and never seem interested in winning is the greatest running back of all-time. These are glaring deficiencies that (off the top of my head) Brown, Payton and Smith didn't have. But, hey, that big run every 4th game really catapulted his team deep in the playoffs! Again, they got rid of him and were better the next 2 seasons with no major acquisitions. I've yet to hear anyone explain how losing the "greatest running back ever" made them better each of the next 2 seasons. But thanks for trying, ladies.

[conversationpc]

Um, no. Your argument is is crap. The guy was generally afraid of contact and danced around to avoid it. I already debunked the bullshit argument about him having poor lines and pointed out that they had several pro bowlers on their line, including a perennial beast in Lomas Brown.

Afraid of contact? I don't know about that. I do know with his body type that if he danced around to avoid contact as much as possible, he was smart to do so. With his build, there's no way he could've sustained the kind of contact that other running backs took.

As for the offensive line, I would venture to say that ALL great running backs had at least one pro bowl lineman playing in front of them at any given time. Even having two and possibly three pro bowlers on the O-line at a time doesn't necessarily mean the line was even average altogether, especially considering most teams were almost exclusively focused on stopping Sanders in almost every game played against that team.

...but there's no way that an emotionless dancer that put his team in many third and longs, showed no fire and never seem interested in winning is the greatest running back of all-time.

Well, by that standard, there are even quite a few HOF NFL coaches that never showed "fire", either (Tom Landry, anyone?). Just because your emotions don't show it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

[S2M]

Dan...here's the thing. You just don't like Barry Sanders.

And here's why you are wrong. Even you would not say that A-Rod, or The Big Unit sucked, right? They had, and in the case of A-rod, still having great careers...

The year RJ left, 1998 - Seattle won 76 games....you'd think by losing him they would drop off considerably, right? Nope. The next five years they won 79, 91, 116, 93, and 93. But let's not forget that A-rod left in 2000. WOW! Seattle must've really sucked after losing him, right? Nope! Wrong again. After he left they won 116, 93, and 93....games respectively....oh, and just so you don't think this is all about Seattle - A-rod left Texas in 2003. His 3 years there they won 71, 73, and 72 games....after he left - 89, 90, and 91.

Again, you wouldn't claim these two guys sucked, right? So explain both teams getting better after these two HALL OF FAMERS left...


Might it be possible that teams just get better, and it doesn't mean a plyer that left just before the upswing.... sucked? Ya think?

[Saint John]

Might it be possible that teams just get better, and it doesn't mean a player that left just before the upswing.... sucked?

That's why you shouldn't be a fucking quitter. And none of those teams and scenarios you mentioned had a player quit on them. They were traded or allowed to visit free agency so their team could get better (free up money to sign people, fill holes at positions, etc.). He quit and allowed them no time to do any of that. Yet, they got better.

[S2M]

Might it be possible that teams just get better, and it doesn't mean a player that left just before the upswing.... sucked?

That's why you shouldn't be a fucking quitter. And none of those teams and scenarios you mentioned had a player quit on them. They were traded or allowed to visit free agency so their team could get better (free up money to sign people, fill holes at positions, etc.). He quit and allowed them no time to do any of that. Yet, they got better.

Oh really? Who could Seattle possibly get that was equal or better than Arod or Unit?!

Still not buying it. Favre kept GB hostage every off season...and I think they've done pretty well since he's left. Teams can get better. Doesn't mean players suck....but in this instance I can truly say that Favre had all the heart in the world....his talent was mediocre.

[Saint John]

Oh really? Who could Seattle possibly get that was equal or better than Arod or Unit?!

Part of the Randy Johnson trade to Houston saw Freddy Garcia come from the Astros to the Mariners and in his first full year with them, 1999, he won 17 games ... the same amount Johnson won that year. After an injury slowed him to 9 wins in a shortened by injury season in 2000, he went on to win 18 games in 2001 and 16 in 2002. They also got John Halama who won 11, 14 and 10 from 1998-2000. They also got Carlos Guillen. This appears to be a lot more than the Lions got for the Quitter.

ARoid? He was replaced with Ichiro Suzuki and for much cheaper than the 25 million ARoid wanted! Suzuki hit .350, stole 56 bases, won a Gold Glove and had 242 hits. And, like I said, freeing up that money allowed them to pursue free agents and help the team in a lot of other areas.

Keep trying!

[conversationpc]

Oh really? Who could Seattle possibly get that was equal or better than Arod or Unit?!

Part of the Randy Johnson trade to Houston saw Freddy Garcia come from the Astros to the Mariners and in his first full year with them, 1999, he won 17 games ... the same amount Johnson won that year. After an injury slowed him to 9 wins in a shortened by injury season in 2000, he went on to win 18 games in 2001 and 16 in 2002. They also got John Halama who won 11, 14 and 10 from 1998-2000. They also got Carlos Guillen. This appears to be a lot more than the Lions got for the Quitter.

ARoid? He was replaced with Ichiro Suzuki and for much cheaper than the 25 million ARoid wanted! Suzuki hit .350, stole 56 bases, won a Gold Glove and had 242 hits. And, like I said, freeing up that money allowed them to pursue free agents and help the team in a lot of other areas.

Keep trying!

This is fun as hell, arguing about stuff that doesn't matter in the slightest.

[Saint John]

Oh really? Who could Seattle possibly get that was equal or better than Arod or Unit?!

Part of the Randy Johnson trade to Houston saw Freddy Garcia come from the Astros to the Mariners and in his first full year with them, 1999, he won 17 games ... the same amount Johnson won that year. After an injury slowed him to 9 wins in a shortened by injury season in 2000, he went on to win 18 games in 2001 and 16 in 2002. They also got John Halama who won 11, 14 and 10 from 1998-2000. They also got Carlos Guillen. This appears to be a lot more than the Lions got for the Quitter.

ARoid? He was replaced with Ichiro Suzuki and for much cheaper than the 25 million ARoid wanted! Suzuki hit .350, stole 56 bases, won a Gold Glove and had 242 hits. And, like I said, freeing up that money allowed them to pursue free agents and help the team in a lot of other areas.

Keep trying!

This is fun as hell, arguing about stuff that doesn't matter in the slightest.

I know.

[RedWingFan]

Here's an article about the fab 5 episode.
http://www.freep.com/article/20110306/S ... y-thorough