Muslim cleric caught sneaking into the U.S.

[Behshad]

“You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe”

Sounds like a good description of a lot of people who believe only in evolution.

"How can you not believe in it, you dumbass! Scientists believe in that, so should you, moron" PeePeeBarfait

[conversationpc]

“You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe”

Sounds like a good description of a lot of people who believe only in evolution.

"How can you not believe in it, you dumbass! Scientists believe in that, so should you, moron" PeePeeBarfait

[Don]

“You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe”

Sounds like a good description of a lot of people who believe only in evolution.

That would be me to a point. I believe in Evolution but the jury is still out on that being the only thing I believe in. As evidence is presented, so to will be my ability to evaluate any other theory that presents itself.

[steveo777]

“You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe”

Sounds like a good description of a lot of people who believe only in evolution.

Yeah, man, Evolution was a pretty good album but I like Infinity better.

[verslibre]

The King James version of the bible is actually a decent read.

The KJV is the worst translation/edition. It has the most inconsistencies, due in no small part to the very "English" style in which it's rewritten.

I'm not protecting a book.

One doesn't have to read the Q'uran/Koran to understand Islam is intrinsically a "religion of the sword," i.e. its primary aspect is "convert or die — non-Muslims are on the same level as dogs." This is not in the Bible. People say it is, but that's inaccurate.

The trouble today is humanity's toxic "Us vs. Them" mentality with a violent extreme hurled at Muslims as an entire group. I wonder what's so different about their religious extremists today as compared to... oh, I don't know... Christian crusaders in the middle ages? Conquistadors? The Inquisition? Salem Witch Trials?

You just stated the difference. Those events happened back then (hundreds of years ago). Islamic extremism is now. (Btw, the Crusades started up initially as a response to the growing Islamic threat in those times.) Yes, there are dangerous (or semi-dangerous) Christian groups, but these are just that — smaller splinter groups, ones that don't encompass hundreds of thousands of members on different continents that hate the West. The Muslims that don't see things this way are secularized and really aren't into the mindset of their religion's preachings. I doubt any of them really want a nuclear holocaust like that dumbass in Iran, though.

[StevePerryHair]

Ok, I have a few things to say. Especially regarding the "extinguishing" of a religion. Let's see how good your reading skills are for MY book!!

1. You can not just EXTERMINATE a religion. Hitler tried. It's impossible. You can't just snuff out beliefs people have in their minds and hearts. Jews hid from Hitler, Jews pretended to be Christians... just how would you propose that a whole religion can even seriously BE exterminated? It's just RIDICULOUS to even think that is an intelligent answer to terrorism.

2. I believe talk like this perpetuates more hate, and more fear, and does nothing to fix the problem at all. I am a Catholic. I know for a FACT that there are many other Christian churches that teach their congregations about what Catholics believe as opposed to what "their" churches believe. I sat in on a non-denominational bible study that did JUST that. What amazes me is how these people are teaching things about MY religion, that aren't even fact. At times, they have it all wrong. And people have SO MANY misconceptions!! They aren't even all true. And even in some cases where they ARE right, they will LUMP all Catholics together saying we ALL believe these things, and that we ALL want these rules of the church followed to a tee, and some of these churches even try to say we are not "real" Christians because the church won't say the bible is a literal book. So if other CHRISTIANS can't even perceive ANOTHER CHRISTIAN RELIGION accurately, am I to believe they are dead right about Muslims as a whole?

I believe that PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE, humans are humans. And even WITHIN my OWN Catholic Christian religion, we have factions of people who believe more strictly than others, or some people choose which rules they want to follow, and which ones they believe and don't believe, that there are people in ALL religions that have differing degrees in how they follow too. You can NOT lump all Muslims saying they ALL believe the same thing. There are different factions of people in ALL RELIGIONS. Even in the Jewish religion, you have strict and non-strict. Are you going to try to make me believe that MILLIONS of people in this world ALL carry the same EXACT BELIEFS?? When there is not ONE OTHER PART of society that can do such a thing? Not even under one ROOF can a family all believe EXACTLY the same things! You CAN'T generalize a religion.

3. Looking at the Jewish religion. They follow the old testament. Some more strictly than others. Are you going to tell me that some of the STRICT Jews aren't still following the old testament laws for their women? I can guarantee you that some are! They just aren't as LARGE of a population, so no one sees it. But they ARE there. I know that some synagogues, and even some European catholic churches to this DAY don't allow women back in the church after giving birth, until they stop "bleeding" because they are unclean. They STILL follow old rules and tradition. Seems kind of sexist and wrong to me, but it's "in the bible" so it must be followed right? Well wrong. The American Catholic church doesn't follow this practice. Some modern Jewish synagogues probably dont' either! So if Jews and Catholics can divide that much on following LITERAL things in the bible, depending on geography, then why is it SO HARD to believe that such things exist in the Muslim religion also? That maybe some of them don't follow things so strictly either. All people, no matter what they believe, have good and bad, and you can't lump every muslim under one ideal. It's as dumb as trying to lump every Christian as believing the same exact thing. I know that's not true.

4.What is happening over there is you have a population of people who want to gain power and they are using religion to do it. They prey on these countries with poor people who have nothing to live for. They take young people and brain wash them. It's not that hard to do. Not every Muslim is capable of being brainwashed and not every muslim wants us dead. I will NEVER believe that. The Jews at one time did all the same violent things to people who broke religious law. The only difference is they evolved and changed the things they found to be outdated, and there is a percentage of muslims who won't change, and unfortunately they have power because violence ALWAYS breeds power!! But I think many would reject it. Most of the dictator leaders too! Sadam was NOT religious at all! But he KNEW he needed the crazy extremists to help him push the people down, and keep them in check as to not get over thrown! Same with the leader of Iran!! Do you REALLY think he is religious??? He KNOWS he needs those violent leaders to spread fear to keep his place in that government! It is a symbiotic relationship! Why can't people see that? It has NOTHING to do with religion when it comes to the masses.

When Iran was having it's sort of revolution over a year ago, I watched a lot of the news coverage. And actually, about 2 weeks prior, I saw a special with Ann Curry from NBC where she went to Iran and spent time traveling and talking to the people. It was very sympathetic to the people, and that is what struck me the most, is how NOT political this news special was. And it was convincing to me that the PEOPLE don't want any of it forced on it the way it is. A majority feels that way. And it's not that they'd reject the entire religion, but just being forced to follow the Quran word for word.

I paid close attention though. And no matter how violent and no matter how many terrible things happen, because of the religious government, those people are not happy and if anything, the violence is pushing them AWAY from religion. There are a whole lot of young people who don't want any of what is being forced on them. JUST the way people are pushed from Christianity because of some of it's followers strict beliefs! That happens in this country, so I believe that it IS happening there, with some of these Muslim people. It does not bring people closer to the religion, when you treat people badly, like sinners, like they are trash if they can't follow every rule. It pushes them away when it's being used for a lifestyle that some believe in and want to force on others.

The youth in the civilized muslim countries are NOT stupid. They are educated, and smart, and they understand.They are just helpless to do anything right now. I believe Iran is not the only country experiencing this. I'm sure that Iraq was the same way. But now it's big huge MESS thanks to the US and NOW it is open to becoming another Afghanistan! I doubt it will ever prosper from within again. At least not for many years. Not with all the Taliban there, ready to take some sort of power.

I just will never believe that all the people care that much about a religion to want to follow it's every rule and live by it word for word. I know that can't be possible because if it was, then every one of the christians I know would all be evangelical born again christians! And most christians can't live by those rules and have no desire to. What makes them think that all people raised as muslims want to follow it THAT strict!

5. I liken it to this with these people out there preaching crap about exterminating a religion. Or even that they KNOW the hate being taught in every Muslim home, and why we all need to see every Muslim as the enemy. If we have a bible sitting here, I am not going to tell you I believe everything in it literally, word for word, because I don't. Another Christian may, but I won't. Yet I do believe it was inspired by God through people to teach us things about life. I believe PEOPLE mess that up though, and its caused divisions. People wrote the bible and quran, so it stands to reason THAT is why it has some of the authors beliefs at the time, are mixed in. I believe the Quran has the same intention. And I would never say it word for word should be followed either.

So why would I believe the rantings of some journalist, author, or person who has "studied" Muslims and written a book or gone on the news....that book is THEIR opinion and interpretation. People in this country read what these people spew, and make it their authority, and truth. How can they trust another human that much with their words? When parfait being an atheist, will be so quick to shoot down religious books ALSO written by people. But what some guy says regarding an ENTIRE group of people is gospel? And to be believed 100%? That book then becomes YOUR bible.

Answer me this. Why is OUR GOVERNMENT such an ally of Saudi Arabia? They are considered our "friend" because we NEED THEM. But yet THEIR WOMEN are treated more horribly by their religious leaders with their rules, than many other countries over there. It seems to me it's more about POLITICS than it has anything to do with religion itself. I think politics is as much to blame if not more than religion is. Sorry!

Well my bible teaches not to hate anyone. And if that kills me someday, so be it. I will not fill my heart with hate. Just as in racism, or sexual orientations, or anything in this world, I refuse to spend one SECOND of my life wasting it on hate. Life is TOO short. I know a guy who died of a pulmonary embolism last week, 43 years old! Another girl from high school is 42, with a 10year old boy, on her death bed with cancer waiting to die. So yeah, I'm going to sit here and worry about being the next terrorist target? And hate muslims and hope we exterminate all of them? I'd rather make the most of the life I have and be thankful for it. Hate perpetuates fear, fear perpetuates the violence, and violence solves nothing.

[Behshad]

One doesn't have to read the Q'uran/Koran to understand Islam is intrinsically a "religion of the sword," i.e. its primary aspect is "convert or die — non-Muslims are on the same level as dogs." This is not in the Bible. People say it is, but that's inaccurate.

.

Wrong! One SHOULD read it to understand that there is a huge difference in what the real muslims believe in , vs what the terrorists claim as words of Islam.

With 2 billions mulims in the world, the act of 100s or thousands morons, barely represent the actual religion. If Islam was a religion of sword, dont you think by now , there would be a massive amount of attacks on non-muslims, instead of a hand full the last decade or two ?

Learning from other's opinion and the news media is not the answer!

[Don]

To a person of religion, is life really TOO short? If Heaven delivers us from all the evil and sorrows of the world, wouldn't life be almost considered too long? Like waiting at the bus stop or the doctor's office, you wait because you have to, not because you want to.

[StevePerryHair]

To a person of religion, is life really TOO short? If Heaven delivers us from all the evil and sorrows of the world, wouldn't life be almost considered too long? Like waiting at the bus stop or the doctor's office, you wait because you have to, not because you want to.

I'm not going to debate religion vs. atheism. I've been down that road before Yes, life can be too short, even if you believe in an afterlife. We all hope to live to be old. But unfortunately not all of our bodies agree and shit happens. It doesn't mean that we don't accept death and look forward to an afterlife. There is still sadness in losing people. It's part of being HUMAN. There are stories in the bible on death, and mourning is always involved. So this argument won't work on me, sorry!

[Rip Rokken]

Well my bible teaches not to hate anyone. And if that kills me someday, so be it. I will not fill my heart with hate. Just as in racism, or sexual orientations, or anything in this world, I refuse to spend one SECOND of my life wasting it on hate. Life is TOO short. I know a guy who died of a pulmonary embolism last week, 43 years old! Another girl from high school is 42, with a 10year old boy, on her death bed with cancer waiting to die. So yeah, I'm going to sit here and worry about being the next terrorist target? And hate muslims and hope we exterminate all of them? I'd rather make the most of the life I have and be thankful for it. Hate perpetuates fear, fear perpetuates the violence, and violence solves nothing.

Right on... I feel the same. It's the reason I stay relatively unplugged from the news except for stuff I need to know, and have pretty much taken my hands off of politics too. Hating anyone, or even fighting for an ideal or belief will only cause me to age prematurely and die an early death. Been there, done that, not again. I kinda keep to myself and find ways to enjoy life these days instead of trying to carry the weight of the world on my shoulders. What a damned miserable way to live.

People say one person can make a difference and that people like me who "disconnect" are part of the problem, but I disagree wholeheartedly. There have been outstanding leaders who have done do, but not everyone is wired to initiate great social change, and for those of us who aren't, the chances of finding enough people who actually can agree and put aside their self interests aside to work as a group, and then actually effect the massive changes our world needs (which come from within) are next to nothing -- I consider them impossible. Peace only occurs when everyone chooses not to fight, and instead respect the rights, beliefs, and property of other people. Rambo said it best -- "You can't change what is", lol. No way we'll ever get people to stop hating or stop fighting, even if they think they are right. Can't stop corruption in government either, etc. I've started let everyone else do their thing, and concentrate on doing my own thing. There are more than enough things in this world to keep us miserable if we want to be miserable, or make us happy if we want to be happy. It's a personal choice. I'm much happier these days.

[verslibre]

Answer me this. Why is OUR GOVERNMENT such an ally of Saudi Arabia?

You already know the answer to that one.

[verslibre]

With 2 billions mulims in the world, the act of 100s or thousands morons, barely represent the actual religion. If Islam was a religion of sword, dont you think by now , there would be a massive amount of attacks on non-muslims, instead of a hand full the last decade or two ?

I think being arrested and thrown into the slammer (and possibly deported) for running around in the street with a sword is a solid deterrent for some whackjobs.

So, since there have been "only a handful" of attacks, you're saying that there are far fewer muslims that adhere, or at least gravitate, towards that mindset. (Are sleeper cells a myth?)

Why don't you tell us what you're getting at, i.e. what is in the Q'uran?

[StevePerryHair]

Answer me this. Why is OUR GOVERNMENT such an ally of Saudi Arabia?

You already know the answer to that one.

Yeah, and I did answer it! Because we NEED them. The oil...the airspace, the landing strips....they are of use. So I am to believe my government and villify them ALL based on their religion, when the government isn't even an example to it's own preachings? I really believe even our own government tells us only the things that will benefit THEM if we know it. I think we are fed a lot of things so we will be afraid. I think they might even want us afraid. Guess I'll be called anti-American now. I am far from it. I just think politics is a big game of chess, and we are all pawns!

[verslibre]

Rambo said it best -- "You can't change what is"

Yup!

[RossValoryRocks]

You were talking about Muslims mistreating their woman, and my point is women get mistreated even here in US, regardless of RELIGION.

At least in the US and the rest of the civilized world the woman who is raped has some recourse through the courts and law enforcement, in most Muslim countries she would be convicted of a crime, namely adultery and be stoned to death.

Here is some excellent stuff: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Yeah...GREAT religion.

[verslibre]

Answer me this. Why is OUR GOVERNMENT such an ally of Saudi Arabia?

You already know the answer to that one.

Yeah, and I did answer it! Because we NEED them. The oil...the airspace, the landing strips....they are of use. So I am to believe my government and villify them ALL based on their religion, when the government isn't even an example to it's own preachings? I really believe even our own government tells us only the things that will benefit THEM if we know it. I think we are fed a lot of things so we will be afraid. I think they might even want us afraid. Guess I'll be called anti-American now. I am far from it. I just think politics is a big game of chess, and we are all pawns!

Business, i.e. capitalism overrules anything and everything. Look at the fucked-up shit right here that the FDA and Big Pharma do, the incredible influence they and other entities have. They engage in activities that are at the very least unethetical, if not illegal. Deep pockets can hold a lot of people.

[Don]

To a person of religion, is life really TOO short? If Heaven delivers us from all the evil and sorrows of the world, wouldn't life be almost considered too long? Like waiting at the bus stop or the doctor's office, you wait because you have to, not because you want to.

I'm not going to debate religion vs. atheism. I've been down that road before Yes, life can be too short, even if you believe in an afterlife. We all hope to live to be old. But unfortunately not all of our bodies agree and shit happens. It doesn't mean that we don't accept death and look forward to an afterlife. There is still sadness in losing people. It's part of being HUMAN. There are stories in the bible on death, and mourning is always involved. So this argument won't work on me, sorry!

Your programming seems to have made allowances for every contingency or query thrown at it.
Bill Gates would be proud.

[Behshad]

With 2 billions mulims in the world, the act of 100s or thousands morons, barely represent the actual religion. If Islam was a religion of sword, dont you think by now , there would be a massive amount of attacks on non-muslims, instead of a hand full the last decade or two ?

I think being arrested and thrown into the slammer (and possibly deported) for running around in the street with a sword is a solid deterrent for some whackjobs.

So, since there have been "only a handful" of attacks, you're saying that there are far fewer muslims that adhere, or at least gravitate, towards that mindset. (Are sleeper cells a myth?)

Why don't you tell us what you're getting at, i.e. what is in the Q'uran?

Thats where your problem is,,, you shouldnt have ME or anyone else tell you what is in Quran... YOU should find out on your own and for yourself... If I or anyone else for that matter try to EXPLAIN a book , specially a book that is what millions believe in, dont you think you would get all different twisted views instead of what the actual message is? Why is it hard for people to try to get educated instead of have someone give them THEIR version of what THEY gathered the book was from ( whether its Quran, Bible or Andrew McNiece's One Night In LA books)


And whackjobs dont get scared of gettin arrested, deported or even killed.

[StevePerryHair]

You were talking about Muslims mistreating their woman, and my point is women get mistreated even here in US, regardless of RELIGION.

At least in the US and the rest of the civilized world the woman who is raped has some recourse through the courts and law enforcement, in most Muslim countries she would be convicted of a crime, namely adultery and be stoned to death.

Here is some excellent stuff: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Yeah...GREAT religion.

So Stu, you HONESTLY think that EVERY Muslim in EVERY country wants to see an adulterer stoned to death? Do you honestly think that every single one of them who considers them self a Muslim, wants to see that happen? There is no way. If that was the case, adultery wouldn't even EXIST. You make no sense. Yes, the "religious extreme government" SUCKS.

[Behshad]

You were talking about Muslims mistreating their woman, and my point is women get mistreated even here in US, regardless of RELIGION.

At least in the US and the rest of the civilized world the woman who is raped has some recourse through the courts and law enforcement, in most Muslim countries she would be convicted of a crime, namely adultery and be stoned to death.

Here is some excellent stuff: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Yeah...GREAT religion.

in US only 6% of those who commit a rape , stay behind the bars for a day or longer.

[Babyblue]

“You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe”

Sounds like a good description of a lot of people who believe only in evolution.

Yeah, man, Evolution was a pretty good album but I like Infinity better.

[RossValoryRocks]

You were talking about Muslims mistreating their woman, and my point is women get mistreated even here in US, regardless of RELIGION.

At least in the US and the rest of the civilized world the woman who is raped has some recourse through the courts and law enforcement, in most Muslim countries she would be convicted of a crime, namely adultery and be stoned to death.

Here is some excellent stuff: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Yeah...GREAT religion.

So Stu, you HONESTLY think that EVERY Muslim in EVERY country wants to see an adulterer stoned to death? Do you honestly think that every single one of them who considers them self a Muslim, wants to see that happen? There is no way. If that was the case, adultery wouldn't even EXIST. You make no sense. Yes, the "religious extreme government" SUCKS.

I could post all sorts of links from just this VERY thing happening in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc etc RECENTLY...well Afghanistan was during the Taliban government, and being CONVICTED in the courts there. Women raped and convicted of adultery for it, but you should look it up yourself.

[StevePerryHair]

To a person of religion, is life really TOO short? If Heaven delivers us from all the evil and sorrows of the world, wouldn't life be almost considered too long? Like waiting at the bus stop or the doctor's office, you wait because you have to, not because you want to.

I'm not going to debate religion vs. atheism. I've been down that road before Yes, life can be too short, even if you believe in an afterlife. We all hope to live to be old. But unfortunately not all of our bodies agree and shit happens. It doesn't mean that we don't accept death and look forward to an afterlife. There is still sadness in losing people. It's part of being HUMAN. There are stories in the bible on death, and mourning is always involved. So this argument won't work on me, sorry!

Your programming seems to have made allowances for every contingency or query thrown at it.
Bill Gates would be proud.

I'm not programmed. You have no idea what I believe and don't believe. I just am not going to sit here and be made to feel that I can't really BELIEVE in an afterlife if I am not happy to die. That makes no sense.

[StevePerryHair]

You were talking about Muslims mistreating their woman, and my point is women get mistreated even here in US, regardless of RELIGION.

At least in the US and the rest of the civilized world the woman who is raped has some recourse through the courts and law enforcement, in most Muslim countries she would be convicted of a crime, namely adultery and be stoned to death.

Here is some excellent stuff: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Yeah...GREAT religion.

So Stu, you HONESTLY think that EVERY Muslim in EVERY country wants to see an adulterer stoned to death? Do you honestly think that every single one of them who considers them self a Muslim, wants to see that happen? There is no way. If that was the case, adultery wouldn't even EXIST. You make no sense. Yes, the "religious extreme government" SUCKS.

I could post all sorts of links from just this VERY thing happening in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc etc RECENTLY...well Afghanistan was during the Taliban government, and being CONVICTED in the courts there. Women raped and convicted of adultery for it, but you should look it up yourself.

So they took a POLL on the WHOLE MUSLIM POPULATION and they ALL agreed it was just punishment??? I don't think you are getting what I'm saying

[RossValoryRocks]

You were talking about Muslims mistreating their woman, and my point is women get mistreated even here in US, regardless of RELIGION.

At least in the US and the rest of the civilized world the woman who is raped has some recourse through the courts and law enforcement, in most Muslim countries she would be convicted of a crime, namely adultery and be stoned to death.

Here is some excellent stuff: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Yeah...GREAT religion.

in US only 6% of those who commit a rape , stay behind the bars for a day or longer.

Where is your source? I could make a statistic, lets say 100% of Beshad's posts are anti-American...it wouldn't make it true. Also are you talking about someone CONVICTED of rape...or had a rape allegation made against them?

And even if it is a day, it's better than in a large percentage of muslim countries, where the victim becomes a CRIMINAL for being raped.

[Behshad]

You were talking about Muslims mistreating their woman, and my point is women get mistreated even here in US, regardless of RELIGION.

At least in the US and the rest of the civilized world the woman who is raped has some recourse through the courts and law enforcement, in most Muslim countries she would be convicted of a crime, namely adultery and be stoned to death.

Here is some excellent stuff: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Yeah...GREAT religion.

So Stu, you HONESTLY think that EVERY Muslim in EVERY country wants to see an adulterer stoned to death? Do you honestly think that every single one of them who considers them self a Muslim, wants to see that happen? There is no way. If that was the case, adultery wouldn't even EXIST. You make no sense. Yes, the "religious extreme government" SUCKS.

I could post all sorts of links from just this VERY thing happening in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc etc RECENTLY...well Afghanistan was during the Taliban government, and being CONVICTED in the courts there. Women raped and convicted of adultery for it, but you should look it up yourself.

Youre talkin about nations being surpressed by dictators who will use Islam to run the country and do anything in name of Islam to benefit themselves and their pockets.

[conversationpc]

You were talking about Muslims mistreating their woman, and my point is women get mistreated even here in US, regardless of RELIGION.

At least in the US and the rest of the civilized world the woman who is raped has some recourse through the courts and law enforcement, in most Muslim countries she would be convicted of a crime, namely adultery and be stoned to death.

Here is some excellent stuff: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Yeah...GREAT religion.

So Stu, you HONESTLY think that EVERY Muslim in EVERY country wants to see an adulterer stoned to death? Do you honestly think that every single one of them who considers them self a Muslim, wants to see that happen? There is no way. If that was the case, adultery wouldn't even EXIST. You make no sense. Yes, the "religious extreme government" SUCKS.

I could post all sorts of links from just this VERY thing happening in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc etc RECENTLY...well Afghanistan was during the Taliban government, and being CONVICTED in the courts there. Women raped and convicted of adultery for it, but you should look it up yourself.

I think what she's trying to say, and what I am saying, is that there's a huge difference between a majority of Islam's adherents and what their Imams, other religious leaders, and those who actually have the power believe and perpetuate. Most moderate Muslims I know of don't think a woman who was raped should be sentenced to death.

[RossValoryRocks]

You were talking about Muslims mistreating their woman, and my point is women get mistreated even here in US, regardless of RELIGION.

At least in the US and the rest of the civilized world the woman who is raped has some recourse through the courts and law enforcement, in most Muslim countries she would be convicted of a crime, namely adultery and be stoned to death.

Here is some excellent stuff: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Yeah...GREAT religion.

So Stu, you HONESTLY think that EVERY Muslim in EVERY country wants to see an adulterer stoned to death? Do you honestly think that every single one of them who considers them self a Muslim, wants to see that happen? There is no way. If that was the case, adultery wouldn't even EXIST. You make no sense. Yes, the "religious extreme government" SUCKS.

I could post all sorts of links from just this VERY thing happening in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc etc RECENTLY...well Afghanistan was during the Taliban government, and being CONVICTED in the courts there. Women raped and convicted of adultery for it, but you should look it up yourself.

So they took a POLL on the WHOLE MUSLIM POPULATION and they ALL agreed it was just punishment??? I don't think you are getting what I'm saying

I do get what you are saying, I am saying the Muslim dominated governments that use Sharia law as a basis of their civil law condone it. I am sure a fairly large percentage of the pipulation of Nazi Germany didn't want all jews killed...but when the GOVERNMENT is behind it, there is nothing that can be done by the people at that point, unless they want to be killed too.

Look at the judge in Pakistan who TRIED to help a Christian women who was accused of the crime of talking about her religion, the extremists killed him for what he did, namely trying to let her off.

[Behshad]

You were talking about Muslims mistreating their woman, and my point is women get mistreated even here in US, regardless of RELIGION.

At least in the US and the rest of the civilized world the woman who is raped has some recourse through the courts and law enforcement, in most Muslim countries she would be convicted of a crime, namely adultery and be stoned to death.

Here is some excellent stuff: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Yeah...GREAT religion.

in US only 6% of those who commit a rape , stay behind the bars for a day or longer.

Where is your source? I could make a statistic, lets say 100% of Beshad's posts are anti-American...it wouldn't make it true. Also are you talking about someone CONVICTED of rape...or had a rape allegation made against them?

And even if it is a day, it's better than in a large percentage of muslim countries, where the victim becomes a CRIMINAL for being raped.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/st ... -offenders

http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html

[Saint John]

1. You can not just EXTERMINATE a religion. Hitler tried. It's impossible. You can't just snuff out beliefs people have in their minds and hearts. Jews hid from Hitler, Jews pretended to be Christians... just how would you propose that a whole religion can even seriously BE exterminated? It's just RIDICULOUS to even think that is an intelligent answer to terrorism.

No one is talking about killing anyone. They're a useless entity in the United States and, much like that maggot Fred Phelps but on a much larger scale, should be shown the fucking door. They don't embrace our freedoms, Lynn. They mock them and exploit them. They're not woven into the fabric of this country at all. They're here to lead a minimally "American" life, funnel money, spread their bullshit word and erect mosques. You don't see them in the "party room" at McDonald's, little league games, art exhibits, museums or any other of a host of normal everyday events that one would, at the very least, accidentally stumble upon and like. Nope, not them, because they fucking quietly despise us.

You CAN'T generalize a religion.

Religion is for people soft in the fucking head. Let's be real here. It's basically what you've been taught and subjected to (brainwashed) for many, many years. I went to a Catholic grade school, high school and college, and finally said, "This stand, kneel, sit, stand kneel, sit bullshit is nothing more than brainwashing!" I sat for years in front of a guy that probably had visions of his prick inside little boys (the catholic church is the biggest institution of child molestation in this planet's history) and when I was old enough to stop, reflect, separate myself from what I had been taught over many, many years, realized it's all bullshit! Religion invented "Faith" to plug the gaping hole about their being a "God" in the sky. They simply needed something to explain the need to continue to follow customs/rules A, B, C, etc.

Listen, the premise here is simple. Take care of yourself, your family and then your community. I don't need a 2,000 page book of bullshit examples or some creep named Allah to tell me how to live my life. Some people simply need an answer or something to believe in to keep moving forward. I just need my family and friends. To each their own. But I will not stand idly by and condone a group of recluse people whose disdain for me not being a Muslim is written all over their faces. Moreover, I will not extend any form of courtesy, be it through a simple "hello" or holding a door open like I do for the non-barbaric people in this country.

3. Looking at the Jewish religion.

This one's easy. No fucking thanks. On to the next question!

Answer me this. Why is OUR GOVERNMENT such an ally of Saudi Arabia? They are considered our "friend" because we NEED THEM. But yet THEIR WOMEN are treated more horribly by their religious leaders with their rules, than many other countries over there. It seems to me it's more about POLITICS than it has anything to do with religion itself. I think politics is as much to blame if not more than religion is. Sorry!

Politics is a tricky bag of deceit, necessity, convenient alliances and material bribery mixed in with a tiny bit of genuine care for the greater good. Our alliance with the Saudies is as much necessary as it is hypocritical. Or as you so appropriately nailed it, political.

Well my bible teaches not to hate anyone.

Throw that fucker away today then! If you don't have a raging anger and hatred for killers, rapists and child molesters, you might wanna rethink your philosophies! I'm guessing you're going to come back and say that you "hate their actions" but I don't have time to split hairs!

I will not fill my heart with hate.

Nor will I, Lynn. But sometimes you have to take a good look around you and realize that not here everyone appreciates life. This countries liberties and freedoms were created for the well being, goodness and quality of life they allow ... not to be manipulated and used for what I believe to be dangerous, freedom and existence-threatening teachings. And these barbarians can't be swayed, so they must be removed.