Vocal Questions??

General Intelligent Discussion & One Thread About That Buttknuckle

Moderator: Andrew

Postby SusieP » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:34 am

Deb,

It's complicated unless you read music and/or have trained. I haven't trained, and I don't read music but let's see if I can help.

Don't try and understand chords and octaves and stuff or you will go crazy. You don't need to know all that.



An octave is a group of the 8 notes. And think of the notes on a piano keyboard, as you move along from one side to the other each octave gets higher.
The music keys are G, A, B, C, D, E, F, and back up to G [into the next octave.] And then there's stuff like Chord sequences and stuff. But again, that's too complicated and you don't need to know.

So A is lower than B, B is higher than A, C is higher than B in that octave..... with me so far?



Each key [A, B, C] is called a 'tone' or a 'step.'
Then in between each tone is a semi tone or half step.

And those steps in between are sharps and/or flats.
Sharps are shown as '#' and Flats as 'b'

BUT
and this is where it gets tricky to explain........... G sharp and A flat sound enharmonically the same.

Think like school grades.

B minus is the same as C plus.

A
A-/B+
B
B-/C+
C
C-/D+

geddit?




I work with an Alto Sax player and I sing in Alto [lower female voice] range - and you'd think we would sing and play in the same key, but that's not so.
The sax key will be three semi tones below the copy key I will sing in. So he will be playing stepped down from me - yet we will be in tune.

Here's a list which I have worked out for myself so that when I find a song in a key I can sing comfortably I can then work out what key the sax will have to play it in.
It's not universal because for sax certain notes do not exist, but you'll get the idea.

Higher note at top of list, lower note at bottom, just like school grades.....



Ab/G#

G

Gb/F#

F

[no Fb or E sharp for alto sax]

E

Eb/D#

D

Db/C#

C

[no Cb or B# for alto sax]

B

Bb/A#

A

Ab/G#


G




If G is too high, a semi tone down from that would be in Gb/ F#
and a full tone or step down would be in F.
Two steps down would be in E.


If the copy key for me to sing in was too high, the music would need to be stepped down [transposed] into a key which is comfortable for me.

Sometimes, a semi tone will make all the difference and the listener will not notice too much.
But if it has to be played in a whole key [two semi tones] lower you would start to hear a difference.
And if it's stepped down lower than that you will really know it!



As you know, I sing covers, so the song is already written and it's key is known.
The singer will sing the song in that key. That key is called the 'copy key.'

The alto sax player's key will be three semi tones below the copy key. That's just because an alto sax is naturally tuned to Eb - you don't need to understand why. It just IS! :) :) And that means I'll be singing three semi tones above what the sax is playing in but it will be in tune and sound right.








I hope that helps a bit.
It all gets complicated with guitars because they have strings and can play more than one note at the same time.
A voice can't.




For falsetto, just think Bee Gees and Minnie Ripperton although that's really 'whistle' register and women have that rather than falsetto.

Steve Perry sang high enough without going into falsetto much.

I can't do falsetto OR whistle.

So I can't even attempt to explain any of that.


But I hope I've helped you understand what 'stepping down' means?????




xxx


As I've said before, I just open my mouth and sing.





This might help....................
http://www.josef-k.net/mim/MusicSystem.html
Last edited by SusieP on Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
..................................


http://www.smoothduo.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/SuzeFromSmoothDuo/ Twitter @smoothduo
..................................
Rest In Peace Deano.
User avatar
SusieP
Stereo LP
 
Posts: 2931
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:13 am
Location: up to no good in rainy Nottinghamshire, England

Postby conversationpc » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:49 am

The best example of Perry singing in falsetto that I can think of off the top of my head are those vocal "sounds" at the end of "Mother, Father".
My blog = Dave's Dominion
User avatar
conversationpc
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 17830
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:53 am
Location: Slightly south of sanity...

Postby Don » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:50 am

conversationpc wrote:The best example of Perry singing in falsetto that I can think of off the top of my head are those vocal "sounds" at the end of "Mother, Father".


Lay It Down has some also.
Don
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 24896
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:01 pm

Postby conversationpc » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:51 am

Don wrote:
conversationpc wrote:The best example of Perry singing in falsetto that I can think of off the top of my head are those vocal "sounds" at the end of "Mother, Father".


Lay It Down has some also.


Good call...Couldn't remember but I can hear it in my head now.
My blog = Dave's Dominion
User avatar
conversationpc
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 17830
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:53 am
Location: Slightly south of sanity...

Postby Saint John » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:52 am

conversationpc wrote:The best example of Perry singing in falsetto that I can think of off the top of my head are those vocal "sounds" at the end of "Mother, Father".


I think he did the same in the famous Wheel In The Sky vocal acrobatics.
User avatar
Saint John
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 21723
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:31 pm
Location: Uranus

Postby kgdjpubs » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:36 am

Saint John wrote:
kgdjpubs wrote: Listen to the chorus progression starting at 1:20. He does the chorus in 3 separate keys. It's pretty obvious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_kMPVeuOOM


I'm not big on glass shattering notes and don't like much of Perry's pre-Escape stuff, but that was just fucking awesome. Just incredible. He sang with sincerity, emotion and at an astounding vocal leverl. Wow. That's one of the best vocals I've ever heard. Thank you for posting that!


Johnny Cook was an absolutely outstanding singer. If he had done pop, I'm sure he'd have a huge reputation. He was one of the few, along with Perry, who was almost effortless at singing. Here's another one which shows off his "lower" range (comparable to Frontiers-era Perry) on a more pop ballad. Even when he goes higher at the very end (which is pretty high), he's not even close to the top of his range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lKHwz06EAs
kgdjpubs
Cassette Tape
 
Posts: 2177
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:32 am
Location: NC

Postby Rick » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:59 am

kgdjpubs wrote:
Saint John wrote:
kgdjpubs wrote: Listen to the chorus progression starting at 1:20. He does the chorus in 3 separate keys. It's pretty obvious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_kMPVeuOOM


I'm not big on glass shattering notes and don't like much of Perry's pre-Escape stuff, but that was just fucking awesome. Just incredible. He sang with sincerity, emotion and at an astounding vocal leverl. Wow. That's one of the best vocals I've ever heard. Thank you for posting that!


Johnny Cook was an absolutely outstanding singer. If he had done pop, I'm sure he'd have a huge reputation. He was one of the few, along with Perry, who was almost effortless at singing. Here's another one which shows off his "lower" range (comparable to Frontiers-era Perry) on a more pop ballad. Even when he goes higher at the very end (which is pretty high), he's not even close to the top of his range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lKHwz06EAs


I remember watching the Happy Goodman Family when I was a kid at my grandparents house.
User avatar
Rick
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 16726
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:29 am
Location: Texas

Postby Saint John » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:53 am

kgdjpubs wrote:
Saint John wrote:
kgdjpubs wrote: Listen to the chorus progression starting at 1:20. He does the chorus in 3 separate keys. It's pretty obvious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_kMPVeuOOM


I'm not big on glass shattering notes and don't like much of Perry's pre-Escape stuff, but that was just fucking awesome. Just incredible. He sang with sincerity, emotion and at an astounding vocal leverl. Wow. That's one of the best vocals I've ever heard. Thank you for posting that!


Johnny Cook was an absolutely outstanding singer. If he had done pop, I'm sure he'd have a huge reputation. He was one of the few, along with Perry, who was almost effortless at singing. Here's another one which shows off his "lower" range (comparable to Frontiers-era Perry) on a more pop ballad. Even when he goes higher at the very end (which is pretty high), he's not even close to the top of his range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lKHwz06EAs


I'm just totally blown away by this dude's voice. It might the clearest I've ever heard. High, low, changing keys on the fly, holding notes, power, he could do it all. This guy could sing with anyone. Shame he died at 53 from cancer.

This "competition" from 1974 showcases 2 super-tenors. What a cool listen! It's worth mentioning that there's also a clip from 1993 of both of them still hitting the exact same notes effortlessly.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf8f32cD ... re=related
User avatar
Saint John
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 21723
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:31 pm
Location: Uranus

Postby kgdjpubs » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:47 pm

Saint John wrote:
I'm just totally blown away by this dude's voice. It might the clearest I've ever heard. High, low, changing keys on the fly, holding notes, power, he could do it all. This guy could sing with anyone. Shame he died at 53 from cancer.


Johnny Cook was up there with the Perry, and Roy Orbison and a few select others--which puts him in VERY esteemed company. Talents like that don't come around very often. It's a shame that someone that good wasn't more well known, but I'll give him all the respect in the world if he didn't want to leave Gospel for mainstream pop.
kgdjpubs
Cassette Tape
 
Posts: 2177
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:32 am
Location: NC

Postby Deb » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:00 pm

SusieP wrote:

But I hope I've helped you understand what 'stepping down' means?????

xxx




Bigtime, thanks Suz. Don't know how to read music, so it's still a little confusing, but it definitely makes more sense now. :)
Deb
MP3
 
Posts: 14934
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:23 am
Location: Gotta Love The Ride!

Postby Deb » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:02 pm

kgdjpubs wrote:
Saint John wrote:
kgdjpubs wrote: Listen to the chorus progression starting at 1:20. He does the chorus in 3 separate keys. It's pretty obvious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_kMPVeuOOM


I'm not big on glass shattering notes and don't like much of Perry's pre-Escape stuff, but that was just fucking awesome. Just incredible. He sang with sincerity, emotion and at an astounding vocal leverl. Wow. That's one of the best vocals I've ever heard. Thank you for posting that!


Johnny Cook was an absolutely outstanding singer. If he had done pop, I'm sure he'd have a huge reputation. He was one of the few, along with Perry, who was almost effortless at singing. Here's another one which shows off his "lower" range (comparable to Frontiers-era Perry) on a more pop ballad. Even when he goes higher at the very end (which is pretty high), he's not even close to the top of his range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lKHwz06EAs


Great voice. And I like it better on this one than the first one.
Deb
MP3
 
Posts: 14934
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:23 am
Location: Gotta Love The Ride!

Postby kgdjpubs » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:17 pm

Deb wrote:
kgdjpubs wrote:
Saint John wrote:
kgdjpubs wrote: Listen to the chorus progression starting at 1:20. He does the chorus in 3 separate keys. It's pretty obvious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_kMPVeuOOM


I'm not big on glass shattering notes and don't like much of Perry's pre-Escape stuff, but that was just fucking awesome. Just incredible. He sang with sincerity, emotion and at an astounding vocal leverl. Wow. That's one of the best vocals I've ever heard. Thank you for posting that!


Johnny Cook was an absolutely outstanding singer. If he had done pop, I'm sure he'd have a huge reputation. He was one of the few, along with Perry, who was almost effortless at singing. Here's another one which shows off his "lower" range (comparable to Frontiers-era Perry) on a more pop ballad. Even when he goes higher at the very end (which is pretty high), he's not even close to the top of his range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lKHwz06EAs


Great voice. And I like it better on this one than the first one.



so do I....but the other one made more sense to post in this thread. gushing over vocal abilities wasn't the question...at least not initially ;) You, of all people, should know I prefer soulful singing as opposed to vocal acrobatics.
kgdjpubs
Cassette Tape
 
Posts: 2177
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:32 am
Location: NC

Postby Deb » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:09 pm

kgdjpubs wrote:
Deb wrote:
kgdjpubs wrote:
Saint John wrote:
kgdjpubs wrote: Listen to the chorus progression starting at 1:20. He does the chorus in 3 separate keys. It's pretty obvious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_kMPVeuOOM


I'm not big on glass shattering notes and don't like much of Perry's pre-Escape stuff, but that was just fucking awesome. Just incredible. He sang with sincerity, emotion and at an astounding vocal leverl. Wow. That's one of the best vocals I've ever heard. Thank you for posting that!


Johnny Cook was an absolutely outstanding singer. If he had done pop, I'm sure he'd have a huge reputation. He was one of the few, along with Perry, who was almost effortless at singing. Here's another one which shows off his "lower" range (comparable to Frontiers-era Perry) on a more pop ballad. Even when he goes higher at the very end (which is pretty high), he's not even close to the top of his range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lKHwz06EAs


Great voice. And I like it better on this one than the first one.



so do I....but the other one made more sense to post in this thread. gushing over vocal abilities wasn't the question...at least not initially ;) You, of all people, should know I prefer soulful singing as opposed to vocal acrobatics.


:lol: Yep. I recall in one thread discussing emoting or something you posted a Mark Anthony live clip too, I think it was You Sang To Me or something, and yep you totally get emoting. Can't remember which one, but it was a great clip, had never even noticed his delivery before.
Deb
MP3
 
Posts: 14934
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:23 am
Location: Gotta Love The Ride!

Postby kgdjpubs » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:30 pm

Deb wrote:
kgdjpubs wrote:
Deb wrote:
Great voice. And I like it better on this one than the first one.



so do I....but the other one made more sense to post in this thread. gushing over vocal abilities wasn't the question...at least not initially ;) You, of all people, should know I prefer soulful singing as opposed to vocal acrobatics.


:lol: Yep. I recall in one thread discussing emoting or something you posted a Mark Anthony live clip too, I think it was You Sang To Me or something, and yep you totally get emoting. Can't remember which one, but it was a great clip, had never even noticed his delivery before.


maybe. Textbook example of how to transfer a pop song into a melodic rock song also with an increased tempo and a bunch of ad libs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PLQ2_bC9Nc

My Baby You was the REALLY emotional one. Raw emotion in front of 40,000 of your closest friends doesn't happen all that often--and even less when you are being filmed professionally. How in the world he ever agreed to release that song on a dvd/HBO special is pretty surprising. Not sure I would have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9PAxnks0tA (watch the entire video!)
kgdjpubs
Cassette Tape
 
Posts: 2177
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:32 am
Location: NC

Postby SusieP » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:57 pm

Deb wrote:
SusieP wrote:

But I hope I've helped you understand what 'stepping down' means?????

xxx




Bigtime, thanks Suz. Don't know how to read music, so it's still a little confusing, but it definitely makes more sense now. :)




You don't need to read music, Deb.

And it's WAY more complicated than I've made it. Chords, enharmonics, diatonic scales etc.

I tried to make it as basic as I could involving an instrument which always plays stepped down from what I sing. I can only tell what i know.
Really hope it helped 'cause it took me AGES to write.
..................................


http://www.smoothduo.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/SuzeFromSmoothDuo/ Twitter @smoothduo
..................................
Rest In Peace Deano.
User avatar
SusieP
Stereo LP
 
Posts: 2931
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:13 am
Location: up to no good in rainy Nottinghamshire, England

Postby Deb » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:09 am

SusieP wrote:
Deb wrote:
SusieP wrote:

But I hope I've helped you understand what 'stepping down' means?????

xxx




Bigtime, thanks Suz. Don't know how to read music, so it's still a little confusing, but it definitely makes more sense now. :)




You don't need to read music, Deb.

And it's WAY more complicated than I've made it. Chords, enharmonics, diatonic scales etc.

I tried to make it as basic as I could involving an instrument which always plays stepped down from what I sing. I can only tell what i know.
Really hope it helped 'cause it took me AGES to write.


Each key [A, B, C] is called a 'tone' or a 'step.'
Then in between each tone is a semi tone or half step.

And those steps in between are sharps and/or flats.
Sharps are shown as '#' and Flats as 'b'




It did, especially that part........as I was going to come back with a question from an earlier post.....of how you can have a note of Eb, but I now know the b isn't a B it means flat. So from my original post question......a full D would be D? And going down a half step down would be D# and full step would be Db?

Thanks a bunch all for your input. Anybody want to tackle the difference between tone/timbre/resonance? :lol:
Deb
MP3
 
Posts: 14934
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:23 am
Location: Gotta Love The Ride!

Postby Deb » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:29 am

kgdjpubs wrote:
Deb wrote:
kgdjpubs wrote:
Deb wrote:
Great voice. And I like it better on this one than the first one.



so do I....but the other one made more sense to post in this thread. gushing over vocal abilities wasn't the question...at least not initially ;) You, of all people, should know I prefer soulful singing as opposed to vocal acrobatics.


:lol: Yep. I recall in one thread discussing emoting or something you posted a Mark Anthony live clip too, I think it was You Sang To Me or something, and yep you totally get emoting. Can't remember which one, but it was a great clip, had never even noticed his delivery before.


maybe. Textbook example of how to transfer a pop song into a melodic rock song also with an increased tempo and a bunch of ad libs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PLQ2_bC9Nc

My Baby You was the REALLY emotional one. Raw emotion in front of 40,000 of your closest friends doesn't happen all that often--and even less when you are being filmed professionally. How in the world he ever agreed to release that song on a dvd/HBO special is pretty surprising. Not sure I would have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9PAxnks0tA (watch the entire video!)


A-friggin-mazing. That was for his daughter? I can see how he says at the end that he doesn't think he'll ever perform that one live again, that that was probably the only time that one would be done live. :shock: Now that is feeling a song, great delivery.

Usually kind of indifferent to Mark Anthony, but really like that first song you posted. And regarding ad libs, I know some people hate them and I don't know if it's a chick thing or not, but I absolutely love them in a song if done right. The random 'mm mm' or 'ooh ohh' thrown into a song can make the delivery just THAT much better IMO. I find R&B influenced singers exceptional at this, usually......of not just throwing in vocal acrobatics but an ear pleasing whooo ooo, moan, groan, etc. One of my favorite vocal qualities in Perry, Martin and Soto is their R&B influenced delivery on the more Motown or Bluesy flavored songs.
Deb
MP3
 
Posts: 14934
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:23 am
Location: Gotta Love The Ride!

Postby SusieP » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:02 am

Deb wrote:
Each key [A, B, C] is called a 'tone' or a 'step.'
Then in between each tone is a semi tone or half step.

And those steps in between are sharps and/or flats.
Sharps are shown as '#' and Flats as 'b'




It did, especially that part........as I was going to come back with a question from an earlier post.....of how you can have a note of Eb, but I now know the b isn't a B it means flat. So from my original post question......a full D would be D? And going down a half step down would be D# and full step would be Db?

Thanks a bunch all for your input. Anybody want to tackle the difference between tone/timbre/resonance? :lol:











Not quite.

D is the key of D. And is shown as a Capital [upper case] letter.

The key is a full tone, and between one full tone [D] and the next full tone [E] is a semi tone [Eb or D#]

The semi tones are denoted as the key with sharps and/or flats next to it.

Db [D flat] is a semi tone [half a step] down from D, C is a full step down from D

D# [D sharp] is a semi tone [half a step] up from D, E is a full step up from D






So if a song in G is too high, you can have it transposed down. And if you want it down by a full tone it will drop to F, or if only a semi tone drop is needed it will drop to Gb or F#. [or like school grades a full tone down from G would be F and a half tone down would be G minus, or F plus.]






Let me try and think of another way of explaining.

Think of a Ruler which measures inches.
The first number on it is one, followed by number two but between those numbers are marks to denote half inches.
Think of the one, two, three etc as A B C D [full note/full inch]
and think of the half inch mark as the sharp/flats [semi tone/half inch]

So there is one step between each main number or tone, and they are divided up with half steps/inches between.


C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E

0.5 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5


C# and Db are different keys but they sound enharmonically the same, so on the scale they appear in the same place.




Any clearer?




To me resonant means clear and ringing out like a bell. You've heard the phrase 'clear as a bell?' - well that's resonance.

So - let's try and think of examples.
Hayley Westenra [one of Gunbot's faves] has a clear and resonant voice.
Bob Dylan mumbles and growls, so he's NOT resonant.

And again, timbre and tone mean more or less the same thing.
Using the bell analogy again, timbre and tone is the sound of the bell. A deep bell like tone/timbre or a high tinkly tone/timbre.



Can I give up yet?

You getting this Miss Debs?
..................................


http://www.smoothduo.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/SuzeFromSmoothDuo/ Twitter @smoothduo
..................................
Rest In Peace Deano.
User avatar
SusieP
Stereo LP
 
Posts: 2931
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:13 am
Location: up to no good in rainy Nottinghamshire, England

Postby Deb » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:37 am

SusieP wrote:Any clearer?

To me resonant means clear and ringing out like a bell. You've heard the phrase 'clear as a bell?' - well that's resonance.

So - let's try and think of examples.
Hayley Westenra [one of Gunbot's faves] has a clear and resonant voice.
Bob Dylan mumbles and growls, so he's NOT resonant.

And again, timbre and tone mean more or less the same thing.
Using the bell analogy again, timbre and tone is the sound of the bell. A deep bell like tone/timbre or a high tinkly tone/timbre.



Can I give up yet?

You getting this Miss Debs?


Yep, I got it now, was a little mixed up on the "sharp" and full key. LOL thanks for your patience. :) See, and I thought vocal resonance had something to do with vibrations, but I guess that is more vibrato?
Deb
MP3
 
Posts: 14934
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:23 am
Location: Gotta Love The Ride!

Postby SusieP » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:01 am

Well I suppose resonant could mean echoey too.

But I tend to think of resonance as clarity and purity of tone.

And I'd use timbre to describe someone with a rich tone.

But hey...........I don't know it all.

SO glad you got it now.


When I started working with a sax player and at rehearsals he'd say 'what keys this in?' and I'd say whatever, then he'd be muttering, 'ok so that's means I'll have to play a minor third below ....'
I was totally lost.
He tried to explain it in 'I can read music speak' and I was even more lost.

So I just pushed aside all the chords and complicated stuff and just broke down the keys and semi tones into a language I could understand.

The rest................ who needs it!







:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
..................................


http://www.smoothduo.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/SuzeFromSmoothDuo/ Twitter @smoothduo
..................................
Rest In Peace Deano.
User avatar
SusieP
Stereo LP
 
Posts: 2931
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:13 am
Location: up to no good in rainy Nottinghamshire, England

Previous

Return to Snowmobiles For The Sahara

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests