Eclipse - the worst Journey album ever?

[Gideon]

Now see...I, myself, am much more interested in the why, and way less interested in the what....I always want to know why somebody thinks a certain way. More times than not people have no idea why they hold certain beliefs....they just sort of pick them up by osmosis.

I not only understand you, but agree with you. (Which is why I've changed my focus from political science to sociology.)
The irony of the situation is that while you harbor suspicions towards a perceived sect of this forum -- the idea that there are sycophants among us who will readily accept and endlessly praise a new Journey release simply because it's a new Journey release -- there are suspicions being leveled towards posters like you: That there are misanthropes who hate new Journey releases simply because they lack a certain element (usually Perry).

I'm not saying it is the case, but the guys and gals on both sides need to take a good look in the mirror before hurling accusations at one another.

[steveo777]

in order for the bias to go BOTH ways, wouldn't the person have to not latch on to Journey,

That's rather superficial thinking, isn't it?
The notion that 'bias' must be clearly projected by users across a message board isn't sensible. A person can be biased without declaring everything to be lame or everything to be great. Andrew can be biased in favor of the band even though he assures us he's not (which is what you seem to think). Likewise, you can be biased against the band even though you claim otherwise.

My point is that while it might seem as though there are people who will laud every and anything Journey puts out, there also seem to be those who will "bitch and moan" about every and anything too.

Now see...I, myself, am much more interested in the why, and way less interested in the what....I always want to know why somebody thinks a certain way. More times than not people have no idea why they hold certain beliefs....they just sort of pick them up by osmosis.

Hey, I've stopped trying to figure you out. I'd have to take the top of your skull off, delve into your childhood, being careful not to
irritate that brain bruise you sustained while being dropped on your head.

[S2M]

Now see...I, myself, am much more interested in the why, and way less interested in the what....I always want to know why somebody thinks a certain way. More times than not people have no idea why they hold certain beliefs....they just sort of pick them up by osmosis.

I not only understand you, but agree with you. (Which is why I've changed my focus from political science to sociology.)
The irony of the situation is that while you harbor suspicions towards a perceived sect of this forum -- the idea that there are sycophants among us who will readily accept and endlessly praise a new Journey release simply because it's a new Journey release -- there are suspicions being leveled towards posters like you: That there are misanthropes who hate new Journey releases simply because they lack a certain element (usually Perry).

I'm not saying it is the case, but the guys and gals on both sides need to take a good look in the mirror before hurling accusations at one another.

Hmmm....in my case this is not true. Cause with the exception of the lame, sappy ballads on Arrival - I find it a really strong release...I'm not a SP ballwasher....we all know what the guy did. SA was great for what he was....

Personally, I think that Jon and Neal have done the same thing to Journey as JY and Tommy have done to Styx....ruin the legacy. THAT'S what I hate.

[Gideon]

Personally, I think that Jon and Neal have done the same thing to Journey as JY and Tommy have done to Styx....ruin the legacy. THAT'S what I hate.

In what regard? Hiring Arnel?

[S2M]

Personally, I think that Jon and Neal have done the same thing to Journey as JY and Tommy have done to Styx....ruin the legacy. THAT'S what I hate.

In what regard? Hiring Arnel?

It's a bunch of things....using SA like that. Tapegate. The way the JSS thing went down. Saying that Jeff didn't fit in with singing the D12(didn't Neal & co. know this before they hired him?...unless he was never truly IN the band), then hiring a singer who was in a band that covered Journey(Steve Perry) - but spouting from the other side of their mouths that they didn't want a doppelganger...putting out ONE cookie-cutter, nod to nostagia - release.....then immediately started working on a supposed rocker of an album(which could have been released with JSS on board)....just reeks of underhandedness.

[steveo777]

Now see...I, myself, am much more interested in the why, and way less interested in the what....I always want to know why somebody thinks a certain way. More times than not people have no idea why they hold certain beliefs....they just sort of pick them up by osmosis.

I not only understand you, but agree with you. (Which is why I've changed my focus from political science to sociology.)
The irony of the situation is that while you harbor suspicions towards a perceived sect of this forum -- the idea that there are sycophants among us who will readily accept and endlessly praise a new Journey release simply because it's a new Journey release -- there are suspicions being leveled towards posters like you: That there are misanthropes who hate new Journey releases simply because they lack a certain element (usually Perry).

I'm not saying it is the case, but the guys and gals on both sides need to take a good look in the mirror before hurling accusations at one another.

Hmmm....in my case this is not true. Cause with the exception of the lame, sappy ballads on Arrival - I find it a really strong release...I'm not a SP ballwasher....we all know what the guy did. SA was great for what he was....

Personally, I think that Jon and Neal have done the same thing to Journey as JY and Tommy have done to Styx....ruin the legacy. THAT'S what I hate.

They didn't ruin the legacy, dimwit, they honored it and preserved it by having someone in the band who can still carry the songs out to the audiences
and assimilate their sound.....the sound that most of us fell in love with.

[Gideon]

It's a bunch of things....using SA like that. Tapegate. The way the JSS thing went down. Saying that Jeff didn't fit in with singing the D12(didn't Neal & co. know this before they hired him?...unless he was never truly IN the band), then hiring a singer who was in a band that covered Journey(Steve Perry) - but spouting from the other side of their mouths that they didn't want a doppelganger...putting out ONE cookie-cutter, nod to nostagia - release.....then immediately started working on a supposed rocker of an album(which could have been released with JSS on board)....just reeks of underhandedness.

I appreciate the clarification, but with this in mind, I have to disagree with you when you say you're not biased.
I agree with many of the things you said and equally disagree with many of the stunts Perry pulled during his tenure with the band. But why on Earth would we let that cloud our judgment of the music? Personal ethics have nothing to do with playing the guitar, hitting certain notes, or writing a song. That I might believe Steve Perry, Neal Schon, and Jonathan Cain have been (at various points) world class assholes doesn't mean that I enjoy their work any less.

[Rick]

It's a bunch of things....using SA like that. Tapegate. The way the JSS thing went down. Saying that Jeff didn't fit in with singing the D12(didn't Neal & co. know this before they hired him?...unless he was never truly IN the band), then hiring a singer who was in a band that covered Journey(Steve Perry) - but spouting from the other side of their mouths that they didn't want a doppelganger...putting out ONE cookie-cutter, nod to nostagia - release.....then immediately started working on a supposed rocker of an album(which could have been released with JSS on board)....just reeks of underhandedness.

I appreciate the clarification, but with this in mind, I have to disagree with you when you say you're not biased.
I agree with many of the things you said and equally disagree with many of the stunts Perry pulled during his tenure with the band. But why on Earth would we let that cloud our judgment of the music? Personal ethics have nothing to do with playing the guitar, hitting certain notes, or writing a song. That I might believe Steve Perry, Neal Schon, and Jonathan Cain have been (at various points) world class assholes doesn't mean that I enjoy their work any less.

I agree. I've had to let go of all the crap so I could remain a fan. Would have been cool to at least get a CD with Soto singing on it though.

[S2M]

It's a bunch of things....using SA like that. Tapegate. The way the JSS thing went down. Saying that Jeff didn't fit in with singing the D12(didn't Neal & co. know this before they hired him?...unless he was never truly IN the band), then hiring a singer who was in a band that covered Journey(Steve Perry) - but spouting from the other side of their mouths that they didn't want a doppelganger...putting out ONE cookie-cutter, nod to nostagia - release.....then immediately started working on a supposed rocker of an album(which could have been released with JSS on board)....just reeks of underhandedness.

I appreciate the clarification, but with this in mind, I have to disagree with you when you say you're not biased.
I agree with many of the things you said and equally disagree with many of the stunts Perry pulled during his tenure with the band. But why on Earth would we let that cloud our judgment of the music? Personal ethics have nothing to do with playing the guitar, hitting certain notes, or writing a song. That I might believe Steve Perry, Neal Schon, and Jonathan Cain have been (at various points) world class assholes doesn't mean that I enjoy their work any less.

Easy. All those things add up to the fact that I don't like the direction the band has taken. That's not bias, that's fact. What it all comes down to, to me, is this...Neal called JSS up and asked him to go out saturday night. jeff said yes. Then between tuesday and Saturday, Neal saw Arnel - and asked him out for Saturday when Neal already had plans - then kindly told Jeff that he had forgotten that he had made other plans.....that's fucked up. Neal has no honor, and absolutely no integrity.

[Gideon]

I agree. I've had to let go of all the crap so I could remain a fan.

I'm honestly bewildered by the idea that people can't let it go.
But my only interest in Journey is as musicians and recording artists, nothing else.

Would have been cool to at least get a CD with Soto singing on it though.

We got W.E.T., which is close enough and rivals Eclipse.

[Gideon]

Easy. All those things add up to the fact that I don't like the direction the band has taken. That's not bias, that's fact.

Yes, but what you've articulated is a problem with the direction of the band's moral compass, not their ability to create music. And it may be a fact that you dislike that direction, but it's still bias if their personal ethics are decisive in your assessment of the music. Neal's honor or lack thereof has nothing to do with his ability to play his instrument.*









*Go ahead and make the joke, fuckers.

[S2M]

Easy. All those things add up to the fact that I don't like the direction the band has taken. That's not bias, that's fact.

Yes, but what you've articulated is a problem with the direction of the band's moral compass, not their ability to create music. And it may be a fact that you dislike that direction, but it's still bias if their personal ethics are decisive in your assessment of the music. Neal's honor or lack thereof has nothing to do with his ability to play his instrument.*

*Go ahead and make the joke, fuckers.

I disagree, and I'll tell you why. Say you support a sports team. And in the off-season, the owner decides not to resign the star player because he doesn't want to pay him the money he's asking....so the player walks, the team signs a lesser player...and the team stinks. Now I'm fully allowed to make a judgement on my liking of this team based on the owner choosing money over wins(moral compass). I'm basing my opinion on team results...results that were based on an owners backwards moral compass....

[Jana]

Personally, I think that Jon and Neal have done the same thing to Journey as JY and Tommy have done to Styx....ruin the legacy. THAT'S what I hate.

In what regard? Hiring Arnel?

It's a bunch of things....using SA like that. Tapegate. The way the JSS thing went down. Saying that Jeff didn't fit in with singing the D12(didn't Neal & co. know this before they hired him?...unless he was never truly IN the band), then hiring a singer who was in a band that covered Journey(Steve Perry) - but spouting from the other side of their mouths that they didn't want a doppelganger...putting out ONE cookie-cutter, nod to nostagia - release.....then immediately started working on a supposed rocker of an album(which could have been released with JSS on board)....just reeks of underhandedness.

They put out a rocker with a tenor voice which makes it reminescent of Journey evern with the harder edge of the songs.

[Gideon]

I disagree, and I'll tell you why. Say you support a sports team. And in the off-season, the owner decides not to resign the star player because he doesn't want to pay him the money he's asking....so the player walks, the team signs a lesser player...and the team stinks. Now I'm fully allowed to make a judgement on my liking of this team based on the owner choosing money over wins(moral compass). I'm basing my opinion on team results...results that were based on an owners backwards moral compass....

If you feel that the band's moral compass impedes their ability to put out good music, then that's one thing. But even then, it could still be a bias, which is nothing more than "a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question."
Were you not predicting that the album would be horrendous before it had been released?

[Deb]

We got W.E.T., which is close enough and rivals Eclipse.

WET Eclipse's it, IMO.

Saying that, I've just listened to the whole thing twice and as per the thread title I wouldn't say this is their worst album, this definitely beats Generations and Revelations in my opinion. Love Neal's guitar work through out. But being an MB fan I have a high standard when it comes to guitar and bass (and vocals for that matter). Like I said, love Neals guitar work on this and it's about time, but it's missing some great heavy bass for me. Arnel sounds real good on this album, but gotta wonder what JSS's powerful pipes and delivery could have brought to some of the rockers.

After a couple of listens the ones I like so far are City Of Hope, Resonate and Someone. But for me there was no stand outs that caught my attention on first listen like Undertow, Stranger in My Life and I Get The Feeling.

[Gideon]

But being an MB fan I have a high standard when it comes to guitar and bass

You must have hated Raised on Radio then.

[S2M]

I disagree, and I'll tell you why. Say you support a sports team. And in the off-season, the owner decides not to resign the star player because he doesn't want to pay him the money he's asking....so the player walks, the team signs a lesser player...and the team stinks. Now I'm fully allowed to make a judgement on my liking of this team based on the owner choosing money over wins(moral compass). I'm basing my opinion on team results...results that were based on an owners backwards moral compass....

If you feel that the band's moral compass impedes their ability to put out good music, then that's one thing. But even then, it could still be a bias, which is nothing more than "a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question."
Were you not predicting that the album would be horrendous before it had been released?

Absolutely. Cause I think Arnel is the wrong choice. And i don't think(overall) that they have put out good music. And since when is a particular bias a bad thing? If Russell Crowe spits in my face, and I develop a bias towards him which results in me not patronizing his films - is that unwarranted?

[steveo777]

I disagree, and I'll tell you why. Say you support a sports team. And in the off-season, the owner decides not to resign the star player because he doesn't want to pay him the money he's asking....so the player walks, the team signs a lesser player...and the team stinks. Now I'm fully allowed to make a judgement on my liking of this team based on the owner choosing money over wins(moral compass). I'm basing my opinion on team results...results that were based on an owners backwards moral compass....

If you feel that the band's moral compass impedes their ability to put out good music, then that's one thing. But even then, it could still be a bias, which is nothing more than "a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question."
Were you not predicting that the album would be horrendous before it had been released?

Absolutely. Cause I think Arnel is the wrong choice. And i don't think(overall) that they have put out good music. And since when is a particular bias a bad thing? If Russell Crowe spits in my face, and I develop a bias towards him which results in me not patronizing his films - is that unwarranted?

Folks, therein lies the problem.

I could probably drink a beer or two with you, fucker. It would be a fun night.

[Gideon]

Absolutely. Cause I think Arnel is the wrong choice. And i don't think(overall) that they have put out good music.

But if you absolutely and actively support or oppose a release from any band before hearing it, you are most certainly biased.

And since when is a particular bias a bad thing? If Russell Crowe spits in my face, and I develop a bias towards him which results in me not patronizing his films - is that unwarranted?

There's a difference between taking a moral stand against something and deriding it. In your example, if you're a fan of Russell Crowe and he spits in your face and you opt to never see another movie of his again out of anger, that's a personal choice and one I'd have a hard time disagreeing with. But if you're a fan of Russell Crowe and he spits in your face and not only do you opt to never see another movie of his again out of anger and you assert that he's a subpar actor or ugly or whatever, then it's unwarranted.

Because then you'd be making judgments about a particular topic that has nothing to do with what you dislike about him.

[Deb]

But being an MB fan I have a high standard when it comes to guitar and bass

You must have hated Raised on Radio then.

Perry's stunning vocals on ROR made up for it, and Neal did have his moments on that album. LOL, but yeah, I guess once you go Sheehan/Gilbert it's hard to go back.

[steveo777]

Absolutely. Cause I think Arnel is the wrong choice. And i don't think(overall) that they have put out good music.

But if you absolutely and actively support or oppose a release from any band before hearing it, you are most certainly biased.

And since when is a particular bias a bad thing? If Russell Crowe spits in my face, and I develop a bias towards him which results in me not patronizing his films - is that unwarranted?

There's a difference between taking a moral stand against something and deriding it. In your example, if you're a fan of Russell Crowe and he spits in your face and you opt to never see another movie of his again out of anger, that's a personal choice and one I'd have a hard time disagreeing with. But if you're a fan of Russell Crowe and he spits in your face and not only do you opt to never see another movie of his again out of anger and you assert that he's a subpar actor or ugly or whatever, then it's unwarranted.

Because then you'd be making judgments about a particular topic that has nothing to do with what you dislike about him.

Gideon...it's happening again!

[Gideon]

I'm being banned?

[S2M]

Absolutely. Cause I think Arnel is the wrong choice. And i don't think(overall) that they have put out good music.

But if you absolutely and actively support or oppose a release from any band before hearing it, you are most certainly biased.

And since when is a particular bias a bad thing? If Russell Crowe spits in my face, and I develop a bias towards him which results in me not patronizing his films - is that unwarranted?

There's a difference between taking a moral stand against something and deriding it. In your example, if you're a fan of Russell Crowe and he spits in your face and you opt to never see another movie of his again out of anger, that's a personal choice and one I'd have a hard time disagreeing with. But if you're a fan of Russell Crowe and he spits in your face and not only do you opt to never see another movie of his again out of anger and you assert that he's a subpar actor or ugly or whatever, then it's unwarranted.

Because then you'd be making judgments about a particular topic that has nothing to do with what you dislike about him.

Again, I disagree with your assertions. A person could make a judgment on a person based on ONE choice that person made. I know this is extreme, but it proves the point....What would you think about a man who consistently gives to charities, reads to the blind, and cares for his down's syndrome child - without bitching.....but come to find out, in his spare time, liked to diddle the next door neighbor? Does that one bad act erase all the good he's done?

Society would love to tell you that they guy is a creep no matter what positive things he's done in the past....just because Neal can shred, has been in Journey for like forever....and people think he shits gold....doesn't mean a bad decision(like hiring Arnel) can't color someone's impression of him, his decisions, and his tainted band.....

[steveo777]

I'm being banned?

No, those voices....they're happening again. I thought you went away to get well!

[Gideon]

Society would love to tell you that they guy is a creep no matter what positive things he's done in the past....just because Neal can shred, has been in Journey for like forever....and people think he shits gold....doesn't mean a bad decision(like hiring Arnel) can't color someone's impression of him, his decisions, and his tainted band.....

Bad decisions would certainly taint your impression of him as a person.
But if your views of his talents as a musician or his creative output is assessed solely because of your perceptions of his moral compass, you're biased.
It's no different from me meeting a rather nice moron and saying, because he's nice he must be a genius. Even if Neal is a bad person who has made bad decisions, prejudging their creative work based on those reasons is still illogical.

[Don]

Bumping because the forum looks too boring without at least one thread title dogging Eclipse.

[S2M]

Society would love to tell you that they guy is a creep no matter what positive things he's done in the past....just because Neal can shred, has been in Journey for like forever....and people think he shits gold....doesn't mean a bad decision(like hiring Arnel) can't color someone's impression of him, his decisions, and his tainted band.....

Bad decisions would certainly taint your impression of him as a person.
But if your views of his talents as a musician or his creative output is assessed solely because of your perceptions of his moral compass, you're biased.
It's no different from me meeting a rather nice moron and saying, because he's nice he must be a genius. Even if Neal is a bad person who has made bad decisions, prejudging their creative work based on those reasons is still illogical.

But it's not though....cause HIS moral decision changed the STYLE of Journey....a STYLE that I don't like. He is still a great guitarist. Never said he wasn't. He changed Journey with his decisions, and their style has suffered. See, no bias...

[steveo777]

Bumping because the forum looks too boring without at least one thread title dogging Eclipse.

I think they're trying to do that downstairs. This time around Arnel brings his own game.

[S2M]

Bumping because the forum looks too boring without at least one thread title dogging Eclipse.

I think they're trying to do that downstairs. This time around Arnel brings his own game.

Yep....his JV game.....

[Gideon]

But it's not though....cause HIS moral decision changed the STYLE of Journey....a STYLE that I don't like. He is still a great guitarist. Never said he wasn't. He changed Journey with his decisions, and their style has suffered. See, no bias...

But even that is flawed.
You claim that his moral decision changed Journey's style, right? Producing a "cookie-cutter album" in Revelation.
But, if I'm not mistaken, you were outspokenly opposed to this album before its release, correct? Though it's quality is certainly subjective, I think we can all agree that the style of Eclipse is absolutely different from Revelation.
How can you justify your prejudice when the styles, approaches, and content of the two album are clearly different? As I said, what it comes down to is that supporting or opposing an album ardently before hearing it in full is indicative of bias. There's no avoiding it.