Eclipse Billboard - Flop

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Postby Don » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:17 am

Gideon wrote:
Don wrote:
Gideon wrote:Those statements aren't mutually exclusive. It's possible to care less about sales and still be disappointed at the lack of interest by the public when one feels one has a quality record.


Of course.
I'm just confused about the whole exclusivity thing. With iTunes and Amazon selling some form of the product, Maybe Wal-mart didn't feel that it was their responsibility to promo this thing as they did with Revelation.
In my own way of thinking, I would rather have a failure at retail because of the product itself, not because of other reasons, such as lack of promo or late distribution or what not.
Obviously I don't know what the real deal here is and it may truly be, as Monker has stated that people just don't give a shit about new material from Journey anymore.


I'm only interested in sales when it comes to influencing the odds of Journey releasing another CD, otherwise I couldn't care less.
Journey's members are all, I believe, millionaires and set for life, so why should I care?
But regardless, management and the band definitely fumbled the ball bigtime. If it tanks, I don't have any sympathy for them: Neal and co. should have been making some noise about it.


See, you and I are on the same page there. I'm looking at sales and wondering if there is a threshold that needs to be obtained in order to have some retailer finance another original release again.

I mean, as much as I and others bitched about Revelation, we still bought it. I understand that part of the game about rewarding a favorite artist with a sale in order for them to continue on giving you a product. Not to the extent of Rip and others who have no qualms about making multiple purchases but still.
Last edited by Don on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gideon » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:20 am

You know, in a hilariously ironic way, this sort of shit makes me appreciate Perry's and Herbie's contributions to the band even more. There's no doubt that both of them were competing for the title of Patron Saint of Pricks, but Neal and Jon have gotten much more reckless and careless when it comes to Journey since then. Sometimes it works out (Eclipse's quality) and sometimes it doesn't (Eclipse's success).
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Postby Jubilee » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:37 am

Don wrote:Of course.
I'm just confused about the whole exclusivity thing. With iTunes and Amazon selling some form of the product, Maybe Wal-mart didn't feel that it was their responsibility to promo this thing as they did with Revelation.
In my own way of thinking, I would rather have a failure at retail because of the product itself, not because of other reasons, such as lack of promo or late distribution or what not.
Obviously I don't know what the real deal here is and it may truly be, as Monker has stated that people just don't give a shit about new material or a new direction or really anything different from Journey anymore.


What I'm confused about is who is supposed to have been handling the promo, anyway. My understanding has always been that the record lable (in this case, NOMOTA) is responsible for promotions, not the distributor (Wal*Mart). Wally world may have a lot of ills, but I don't know if we can hang this debacle on them.

Also, I don't know if I can go along with Monker's assertion that people don't care about the band's new material & new direction. It's hard to quantify at this point if people are not responding to the new music because they're not interested in it, or if they're not responding to the new music because they don't know of it's availability. We've seen several MR members post anecdotes about friends, family, co-workers, well-wishers, etc., who have purchased tickets well in advance to upcoming Journey shows, yet were completely unaware there was any new music. :?
Last edited by Jubilee on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Don » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:38 am

This is sort of funny. All those 10 dollar discs laying in Wal-Mart's inventory and then you have this.



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Postby SF-Dano » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:47 am

Don wrote:This is sort of funny. All those 10 dollar discs laying in Wal-Mart's inventory and then you have this.



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WTF??????? :shock: :lol:
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Postby S2M » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:56 am

SF-Dano wrote:
Don wrote:This is sort of funny. All those 10 dollar discs laying in Wal-Mart's inventory and then you have this.



Image



WTF??????? :shock: :lol:


I saw this. They used some blood from SP's hip-replacement surgery in the ink. Very expensive procedure.
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Postby RedWingFan » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:02 am

Rockindeano wrote:
Saint John wrote:Just reported 8k. Ouch. Gonna be tough to crack 10k for the week it appears.


8K? If Journey can't sell more units than Everett makes in a years salary, it's time to go boys.


:lol: LMAO!!! :lol:
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Postby Tito » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:03 am

Don wrote:When does it change from
"We're not really concerned with how many albums we sell at this stage of our careers anyway"
to
"We are a bit disappointed with sales because we truly feel that this is one the best records we've done"


Final numbers from Hits Daily Double.

Image


I blame the economy for the poor sales. Just kidding.

I'll go on record right now and say, I'm embarrassed about the sales figures for the two weeks.

I wasn't expecting Revelation numbers but I was still thinking 70-75,000 first week, a Top 5 debut perhaps. On the flipside, I thought an absolute worst case scenario of 35,000 sold first week. Well, after two weeks we haven't hit that and I'm not sure next week's and the following week's totals will get us to that worst case number. I was complaining to others about the (lack of) promotion on this CD, so in hindsight I shouldn't be totally surprised by the numbers but I am. I, and apparently management and Walmart as well, thought there were more die-hard Journey fans out there that could move 35,000 CDs no problem, but for whatever reason apparently not. All I'll say, thank god I didn't bet anyone on albums sold, because if someone would've have said the debut week they wouldn't sell 35,000; hell 25,000 CDs, I would've bet the house. Needless to say, I would be homeless and someone would be a homeowner in white suburbia.
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Postby S2M » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:05 am

Tito wrote:
Don wrote:When does it change from
"We're not really concerned with how many albums we sell at this stage of our careers anyway"
to
"We are a bit disappointed with sales because we truly feel that this is one the best records we've done"


Final numbers from Hits Daily Double.

Image


I blame the economy for the poor sales. Just kidding.

I'll go on record right now and say, I'm embarrassed about the sales figures for the two weeks.

I wasn't expecting Revelation numbers but I was still thinking 70-75,000 first week, a Top 5 debut perhaps. On the flipside, I thought an absolute worst case scenario of 35,000 sold first week. Well, after two weeks we haven't hit that and I'm not sure next week's and the following week's totals will get us to that worst case number. I was complaining to others about the (lack of) promotion on this CD, so in hindsight I shouldn't be totally surprised by the numbers but I am. I, and apparently management and Walmart as well, thought there were more die-hard Journey fans out there that could move 35,000 CDs no problem, but for whatever reason apparently not. All I'll say, thank god I didn't bet anyone on albums sold, because if someone would've have said the debut week they wouldn't sell 35,000; hell 25,000 CDs, I would've bet the house. Needless to say, I would be homeless and someone would be a homeowner in white suburbia.


I would say we didn't send Tim Thomas to the border quick enough..... :lol:
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Postby Monker » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:06 am

Don wrote:Here's a point to ponder. Do low sales of Eclipse doom Arnel's documentary? The film makers ran a three month campaign for donations that netted $7,000. They had requested $50,000 to simply start the film editing. Three years on, no money to finish the movie and Journey not really getting any play from their new release, is this film dead?


Of course it is dead. If it were going to happen, it would have been out last year.
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Postby Monker » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:09 am

Eric wrote:
Don wrote:Here's a point to ponder. Do low sales of Eclipse doom Arnel's documentary? The film makers ran a three month campaign for donations that netted $7,000. They had requested $50,000 to simply start the film editing. Three years on, no money to finish the movie and Journey not really getting any play from their new release, is this film dead?


In hindsight, maybe putting their effort into promoting Eclipse would have been more fruitful.[/quote

Why would anybody want to risk investing in this? Just as so many other things, I'm sure Perry will not allow his image to be a part of this film...so NO significant Perry era footage...and Arnel is no where near a big enough 'star' to sell this thing. Think about it, not even the band is willing to invest enough to get it made.
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Postby Monker » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:11 am

Don wrote:
Tito wrote:Do we have official/final week 2 numbers, yet?


Later today, we'll have close to official numbers. Expect Wal-Mart to do as they did last week and pull a couple thousand sales out of their ass before the official new Billboard chart on Thursday to move the album up a spot or three.


Unless Wal-Mart doubles the 'real' sales, it's still going to be pathetic.
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Postby Tito » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:13 am

Say what you will about Mr. Cain, but he's no dumb cookie. I think he saw the writing on the wall. He saw no promotion. He saw the inexpensive packaging and knew this was going to be a low expense, half-ass CD release. Don't get me wrong, he was still a team player, as usual, and did his part by doing interviews to promote the CD, etc. But, he said from the get go, this was Neal's CD. Hence, he knew what was coming and removed himself from the blame and put it right at the feet of Neal. Smart move.
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Postby RedWingFan » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:13 am

Don wrote:When does it change from
"We're not really concerned with how many albums we sell at this stage of our careers anyway"
to
"We are a bit disappointed with sales because we truly feel that this is one the best records we've done"


Final numbers from Hits Daily Double.

Image


When does "nomota" go to "nomosa" for nomoresales? :lol:
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Postby Don » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:14 am

RedWingFan wrote:
Don wrote:When does it change from
"We're not really concerned with how many albums we sell at this stage of our careers anyway"
to
"We are a bit disappointed with sales because we truly feel that this is one the best records we've done"


Final numbers from Hits Daily Double.

Image


When does "nomota" go to "nomosa" for nomoresales? :lol:


Now, that was funny. :lol:
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Postby Tito » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:16 am

RedWingFan wrote:
Don wrote:When does it change from
"We're not really concerned with how many albums we sell at this stage of our careers anyway"
to
"We are a bit disappointed with sales because we truly feel that this is one the best records we've done"


Final numbers from Hits Daily Double.

Image


When does "nomota" go to "nomosa" for nomoresales? :lol:


I would laugh but it's still too embarrassing right now. Maybe in a year or two.
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Postby RedWingFan » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:49 am

Eric wrote:
Rockindeano wrote:
Melissa wrote:
POINT is, Mirrorball WILL outsell Eclipse. 8)


Doesn't make it better. Gaga will outsell BOTH of them by a couple million. Point? Def Leppard is garbage.

My point is numbers always don't tell the story. There is NO way Def Lippard should be closing with Bryan Adams, as there is a HUGE difference in talent between those two bands. Lippard can't stand on the same stage as BA and his band.....but...


When they did their minor league baseball stadium tour several summers ago, Adams closed the show I attended. He wasn't good that night - 3 ballad encore. 2/3 nobody knew but his hardcore. I found it an odd performance...not if he were doing a solo tour mind you, but when closing for the Lippard.

You must have been VERY early in the tour. After a few dates of Leppard fans streaming for the exits and Adams playing to half a crowd. Both acts agreed that Adams should open the rest of the tour to keep that from happening further.

Dean was the only one leaving early after that! :lol:
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Postby steveo777 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:34 am

Tito wrote:
Don wrote:When does it change from
"We're not really concerned with how many albums we sell at this stage of our careers anyway"
to
"We are a bit disappointed with sales because we truly feel that this is one the best records we've done"


Final numbers from Hits Daily Double.

Image


I blame the economy for the poor sales. Just kidding.

I'll go on record right now and say, I'm embarrassed about the sales figures for the two weeks.

I wasn't expecting Revelation numbers but I was still thinking 70-75,000 first week, a Top 5 debut perhaps. On the flipside, I thought an absolute worst case scenario of 35,000 sold first week. Well, after two weeks we haven't hit that and I'm not sure next week's and the following week's totals will get us to that worst case number. I was complaining to others about the (lack of) promotion on this CD, so in hindsight I shouldn't be totally surprised by the numbers but I am. I, and apparently management and Walmart as well, thought there were more die-hard Journey fans out there that could move 35,000 CDs no problem, but for whatever reason apparently not. All I'll say, thank god I didn't bet anyone on albums sold, because if someone would've have said the debut week they wouldn't sell 35,000; hell 25,000 CDs, I would've bet the house. Needless to say, I would be homeless and someone would be a homeowner in white suburbia.


It looks like George W. Bush has fucked up, yet, something else. :lol:

Neal, ya better call your good friend Herbie. This is not looking good.
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Postby Monker » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:40 am

steveo777 wrote:
Tito wrote:
Don wrote:When does it change from
"We're not really concerned with how many albums we sell at this stage of our careers anyway"
to
"We are a bit disappointed with sales because we truly feel that this is one the best records we've done"


Final numbers from Hits Daily Double.

Image


I blame the economy for the poor sales. Just kidding.

I'll go on record right now and say, I'm embarrassed about the sales figures for the two weeks.

I wasn't expecting Revelation numbers but I was still thinking 70-75,000 first week, a Top 5 debut perhaps. On the flipside, I thought an absolute worst case scenario of 35,000 sold first week. Well, after two weeks we haven't hit that and I'm not sure next week's and the following week's totals will get us to that worst case number. I was complaining to others about the (lack of) promotion on this CD, so in hindsight I shouldn't be totally surprised by the numbers but I am. I, and apparently management and Walmart as well, thought there were more die-hard Journey fans out there that could move 35,000 CDs no problem, but for whatever reason apparently not. All I'll say, thank god I didn't bet anyone on albums sold, because if someone would've have said the debut week they wouldn't sell 35,000; hell 25,000 CDs, I would've bet the house. Needless to say, I would be homeless and someone would be a homeowner in white suburbia.


It looks like George W. Bush has fucked up, yet, something else. :lol:

Neal, ya better call your good friend Herbie. This is not looking good.


Nah, it's Perry's fault. Everything is Perry's fault...even W is Perry's fault.
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Postby Monker » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:51 am

[quote="Tito"]Say what you will about Mr. Cain, but he's no dumb cookie. I think he saw the writing on the wall. He saw no promotion. He saw the inexpensive packaging and knew this was going to be a low expense, half-ass CD release. Don't get me wrong, he was still a team player, as usual, and did his part by doing interviews to promote the CD, etc. But, he said from the get go, this was Neal's CD. Hence, he knew what was coming and removed himself from the blame and put it right at the feet of Neal. Smart move.[/quote

Jonathan did the same as he did for ROR, followed what his leader wanted.

"To be surrounded by yes-men is a dangerous thing." Who said that?
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Postby brywool » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:56 am

Monker wrote:

"To be surrounded by yes-men is a dangerous thing." Who said that?


Jon Anderson?
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Postby S2M » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:04 am

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Postby Argus » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:08 pm

brywool wrote:
Monker wrote:

"To be surrounded by yes-men is a dangerous thing." Who said that?


Jon Anderson?


LOL

I don't want any "yes-men" around me. I want everybody to tell me the truth even if it costs them their jobs.
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And Monker said it back during TG :wink:
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Postby Tito » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:48 pm

steveo777 wrote:
Neal, ya better call your good friend Herbie. This is not looking good.


If Herbie was managing this band, this CD would have done better. Not top 5 probably but doubling sales would not be out of the question. Speaking of management, as I've discussed with others, this debacle is a firable offense for Azoff. Unfortunately, because of the monopoly he has in the industry, they're stuck with him and can't fire him. It almost makes my want a write a letter to my congressman and tell them to break up this racket/monopoly.
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Postby Monker » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:15 pm

Argus wrote:
brywool wrote:
Monker wrote:

"To be surrounded by yes-men is a dangerous thing." Who said that?


Jon Anderson?


LOL

I don't want any "yes-men" around me. I want everybody to tell me the truth even if it costs them their jobs.
-Samuel Goldwyn

And Monker said it back during TG :wink:


Actually a dictator and a lead singer is pretty good....

It was Steve Perry in a MTV interview after the release of Street Talk but before ROR was started.
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Postby Monker » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:28 pm

Tito wrote:
steveo777 wrote:
Neal, ya better call your good friend Herbie. This is not looking good.


If Herbie was managing this band, this CD would have done better. Not top 5 probably but doubling sales would not be out of the question. Speaking of management, as I've discussed with others, this debacle is a firable offense for Azoff. Unfortunately, because of the monopoly he has in the industry, they're stuck with him and can't fire him. It almost makes my want a write a letter to my congressman and tell them to break up this racket/monopoly.


Herbie managing this band? Come on....he's smarter then that.

Why manage something that nobody wants to buy?

Herbie was a part of this band back in the day...not just a manager. I doubt he would want to be involved in this debacle where everybody involved seems to think they know more then everybody else. He would have taken control of the the goofy direction of this band and there would be none of this craziness that has become of Journey the past five years or more. Eclipse would be something he could sell, not something that only stroked Neal's ego. If he didn't think he could get it on radio, and believed in the product, he would have walked. In fact, I think he's happy to NOT be involved...and has not taken the job for that very reason.

BTW, what happened to SJ's talk of Herbie being involved behind the scenes with Neal in a larger way then he has been since he split from the band? Yeah, it looks like he was soooo involved. If he was, I'd like to know specifically HOW? So much talk, so little truth.
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Postby Eric » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:09 pm

Monker wrote:
Tito wrote:
steveo777 wrote:
Neal, ya better call your good friend Herbie. This is not looking good.


If Herbie was managing this band, this CD would have done better. Not top 5 probably but doubling sales would not be out of the question. Speaking of management, as I've discussed with others, this debacle is a firable offense for Azoff. Unfortunately, because of the monopoly he has in the industry, they're stuck with him and can't fire him. It almost makes my want a write a letter to my congressman and tell them to break up this racket/monopoly.


Herbie managing this band? Come on....he's smarter then that.

Why manage something that nobody wants to buy?

Herbie was a part of this band back in the day...not just a manager. I doubt he would want to be involved in this debacle where everybody involved seems to think they know more then everybody else. He would have taken control of the the goofy direction of this band and there would be none of this craziness that has become of Journey the past five years or more. Eclipse would be something he could sell, not something that only stroked Neal's ego. If he didn't think he could get it on radio, and believed in the product, he would have walked. In fact, I think he's happy to NOT be involved...and has not taken the job for that very reason.

BTW, what happened to SJ's talk of Herbie being involved behind the scenes with Neal in a larger way then he has been since he split from the band? Yeah, it looks like he was soooo involved. If he was, I'd like to know specifically HOW? So much talk, so little truth.


Journey has been incredibly successful the past 4-5 years.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:43 pm

Monker wrote:Herbie managing this band? Come on....he's smarter then that.

Why manage something that nobody wants to buy?


Times have changed, and so has the musical landscape. Not to take anything away from Herbie's guiding hand during the band's formative years, but some fans seem to have as rose-colored a view of him, as others do of Perry. Even if Herbie came back, what would he do? When was the last time he actively managed so much as a hot dog stand?
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Postby jrny84 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:58 am

For me this sorta proves that Journey isnt as relevent as I thought they were in American Music. For the last few years I thought they finally made the full circle and picked up alot of their fans again, having sold out concerts, and successful albums. I really thought they might have turned the corner. Even though they have sold around 50 million albums in the states, they dont seem to have a hardcore loyal fanbase like Aerosmith, The Eagles, Van Halen, Metallica, and many others who have similar album sales numbers. Even Rush who has sold half the amount of albums Journey has, has one heck of a loyal fan base.

Didnt Foreigner's Cant Slow Down album have a better sales debut than Eclipse?

Its still surprising and a bit daunting that Journey doesnt even have enough loyal fans to sell 35-40,000 albums with a debut. I dont think the fans that are left are really interested in new Journey music...they want the classic Journey.
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Postby madsplash » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:08 am

Sad, dissapointing and embarrasing, indeed.
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