Eclipse Billboard - Flop

[Saint John]

My guess would be that Herbie has more money than them all put together. If he, Neal and Jon (and Perry if we would just apologize for his actions from 1987-1998) were able to buy back the catalog I think the possible revenue streams would be infinite. But my guess this would be a post-retirement project for the guys I mentioned. Kind of like it is for Perry now. I have a feeling he's a big player in the movie industry and probably the main reason the old Journey songs are so prominent in shows and movies. He can't sing anymore so he does it by proxy. And that would be great if he would stop with the annual bullhorn reports. But most rational people have come to view those reports about as credible as Baghdad Bob's.

[RedWingFan]

Mirrorball doesn't appear to be selling well. MAYBE a Top 20 on debut. Man, Wal-mart exclusives sure ain't what they used to be.

Because it's shit, from most accounts.

Ah, the ONLY thing Eclipse can outsell is Obama's Chevy Volt and that's only because no marketing!!! It's Eclipse that is shit to what's left of Journey fans.

Lep's live cd sounds great, as do the 3 new tracks, all very good yet sound very different from each other.

Just finished watching the dvd as well. Also very good.

[Don]

My guess would be that Herbie has more money than them all put together. If he, Neal and Jon (and Perry if we would just apologize for his actions from 1987-1998) were able to buy back the catalog I think the possible revenue streams would be infinite. But my guess this would be a post-retirement project for the guys I mentioned. Kind of like it is for Perry now. I have a feeling he's a big player in the movie industry and probably the main reason the old Journey songs are so prominent in shows and movies. He can't sing anymore so he does it by proxy. And that would be great if he would stop with the annual bullhorn reports. But most rational people have come to view those reports about as credible as Baghdad Bob's.

If it's just the Audio, they don't necessarily need Perry in on this stuff but for any video related material it would be better to have him on board. Regardless,whether Sony or the band itself owns everything, the same rules regarding licensing to third parties and video duplication and distribution will still apply and the same permissions still needed by individual members/ ex-members of the band for things to be released or used in media.

Copyright usually doesn't change unless a holder agrees to a lump sum compensation package for projected future earnings from licensing , sales, etc.. If Perry didn't take a buyout when Journey wasn't a hot item ten years ago, I doubt he'd accept one now.

[parfait]

My guess would be that Herbie has more money than them all put together. If he, Neal and Jon (and Perry if we would just apologize for his actions from 1987-1998) were able to buy back the catalog I think the possible revenue streams would be infinite. But my guess this would be a post-retirement project for the guys I mentioned. Kind of like it is for Perry now. I have a feeling he's a big player in the movie industry and probably the main reason the old Journey songs are so prominent in shows and movies. He can't sing anymore so he does it by proxy. And that would be great if he would stop with the annual bullhorn reports. But most rational people have come to view those reports about as credible as Baghdad Bob's.

[Don]

I honestly can't foresee a big demand for this kind of stuff on the market right now. The band's who have have had moderate success moving this kind of product usually have their most identifiable members still in the band.
There is no commercial slam dunk here.

[Monker]

My guess would be that Herbie has more money than them all put together. If he, Neal and Jon (and Perry if we would just apologize for his actions from 1987-1998) were able to buy back the catalog I think the possible revenue streams would be infinite. But my guess this would be a post-retirement project for the guys I mentioned. Kind of like it is for Perry now. I have a feeling he's a big player in the movie industry and probably the main reason the old Journey songs are so prominent in shows and movies. He can't sing anymore so he does it by proxy. And that would be great if he would stop with the annual bullhorn reports. But most rational people have come to view those reports about as credible as Baghdad Bob's.

This just isn't going to happen. Herbie isn't going to sink any money into Journey. Perry only gets involved when Sony is going to release something. Those were Sony's projects, not his. I doubt Neal and Jonathan have the capital to do it on their own.

There was talk years ago about a 'video box set'...but it's up to Sony and Perry...if it's Perry's 'time of the month', he could axe the idea...and if Sony isn't interested, the entire idea is irrelevant. Everybody else involved was OK with the idea.

Perry is no 'big player' in the movies. Sony is...and probably Azoff too. Perry probably has less then nothing to do with the movie soundtracks of recent years.

[slucero]

Now your off your rocker... the reason Vegas 2001 and Manila sold well is because both DVD's were the band doing the greatest hits.

No shit. That's why I explicitly said Eclipse should've been packaged with another "hits" dvd, and the band should've "gamed the system" (again). Learn how to read.

the only other "hits" they have are the DD... get a clue...

Eclipse would have sold like hot cakes - in 1985 when they had an audience that would buy anything they put out... now its just another CD that only appeals to a very select, dedicated listener of the MR genre... even some hardcore Journey fans dislike it.. that's how "non-Journey" it is..

Andrew is one of the most hardcore Journey fans I know. He loves it. I think most fans, who own more than just the Greatest Hits, will dig it too. Like Frontiers, Eclipse has some commercial AOR on it, and takes a few chances as well. The term "non-Journey" is meaningless. The only fans that sling that phrase around are those who think every new album should be 12 tracks of DSB and AWYWI rip-offs.

You're delusional... this thing is already selling like Generations... no is gonna buy it so no one is gonna hear it...

...Cain can likely make more money writing and producing than touring in Journey...

Schon is a guitar player... first and foremost... playing live and rocking is what he loves... he needs the road...

Cain doesn't....

Riiiight. Cain is going to throw away a surefire meal ticket like Journey to risk it all on producing upstarts in a music landscape dominated by Biebers, Gagas, and glamorized thugs. Cain is a prolific writer and an ok producer, but he’s no David Foster, or some industry heavy-hitter like T-Bone Burnette, Desmond Child, or Rob Cavallo. The artists he writes for are not contemporary. They are dinosaur acts like himself. He needs Journey just like Schon.

This meal ticket is the DD... and that's gonna be done after this tour... as will them playing any Eclipse cuts... all they have is the DD and they'll wind up being played at state fairs... and Cain will choose home over the fair circuit...

[steveo777]

Now your off your rocker... the reason Vegas 2001 and Manila sold well is because both DVD's were the band doing the greatest hits.

No shit. That's why I explicitly said Eclipse should've been packaged with another "hits" dvd, and the band should've "gamed the system" (again). Learn how to read.

the only other "hits" they have are the DD... get a clue...

Eclipse would have sold like hot cakes - in 1985 when they had an audience that would buy anything they put out... now its just another CD that only appeals to a very select, dedicated listener of the MR genre... even some hardcore Journey fans dislike it.. that's how "non-Journey" it is..

Andrew is one of the most hardcore Journey fans I know. He loves it. I think most fans, who own more than just the Greatest Hits, will dig it too. Like Frontiers, Eclipse has some commercial AOR on it, and takes a few chances as well. The term "non-Journey" is meaningless. The only fans that sling that phrase around are those who think every new album should be 12 tracks of DSB and AWYWI rip-offs.

You're delusional... this thing is already selling like Generations... no is gonna buy it so no one is gonna hear it...

...Cain can likely make more money writing and producing than touring in Journey...

Schon is a guitar player... first and foremost... playing live and rocking is what he loves... he needs the road...

Cain doesn't....

Riiiight. Cain is going to throw away a surefire meal ticket like Journey to risk it all on producing upstarts in a music landscape dominated by Biebers, Gagas, and glamorized thugs. Cain is a prolific writer and an ok producer, but he’s no David Foster, or some industry heavy-hitter like T-Bone Burnette, Desmond Child, or Rob Cavallo. The artists he writes for are not contemporary. They are dinosaur acts like himself. He needs Journey just like Schon.

This meal ticket is the DD... and that's gonna be done after this tour... or wind up being played at state fairs... Cain will choose home over the fair circuit...

The world, according to Garp. Negative Nancys are everywhere. Once people have gotten their hands on this album and heard these songs live, there are all kinds
of positive reviews. There are 10% negative, some of those very negative, but that is normal. 90% that have given this album an honest chance love most of it. This album did not fail. When there is time to finally reflect back, this album will be a monumental step in history......and a good one.

[slucero]

Now your off your rocker... the reason Vegas 2001 and Manila sold well is because both DVD's were the band doing the greatest hits.

No shit. That's why I explicitly said Eclipse should've been packaged with another "hits" dvd, and the band should've "gamed the system" (again). Learn how to read.

the only other "hits" they have are the DD... get a clue...

Eclipse would have sold like hot cakes - in 1985 when they had an audience that would buy anything they put out... now its just another CD that only appeals to a very select, dedicated listener of the MR genre... even some hardcore Journey fans dislike it.. that's how "non-Journey" it is..

Andrew is one of the most hardcore Journey fans I know. He loves it. I think most fans, who own more than just the Greatest Hits, will dig it too. Like Frontiers, Eclipse has some commercial AOR on it, and takes a few chances as well. The term "non-Journey" is meaningless. The only fans that sling that phrase around are those who think every new album should be 12 tracks of DSB and AWYWI rip-offs.

You're delusional... this thing is already selling like Generations... no is gonna buy it so no one is gonna hear it...

...Cain can likely make more money writing and producing than touring in Journey...

Schon is a guitar player... first and foremost... playing live and rocking is what he loves... he needs the road...

Cain doesn't....

Riiiight. Cain is going to throw away a surefire meal ticket like Journey to risk it all on producing upstarts in a music landscape dominated by Biebers, Gagas, and glamorized thugs. Cain is a prolific writer and an ok producer, but he’s no David Foster, or some industry heavy-hitter like T-Bone Burnette, Desmond Child, or Rob Cavallo. The artists he writes for are not contemporary. They are dinosaur acts like himself. He needs Journey just like Schon.

This meal ticket is the DD... and that's gonna be done after this tour... or wind up being played at state fairs... Cain will choose home over the fair circuit...

The world, according to Garp. Negative Nancys are everywhere. Once people have gotten their hands on this album and heard these songs live, there are all kinds
of positive reviews. There are 10% negative, some of those very negative, but that is normal. 90% that have given this album an honest chance love most of it. This album did not fail. When there is time to finally reflect back, this album will be a monumental step in history......and a good one.

Yup... I"m sure it'll be a revelation...

[Don]

The world, according to Garp. Negative Nancys are everywhere. Once people have gotten their hands on this album and heard these songs live, there are all kinds
of positive reviews. There are 10% negative, some of those very negative, but that is normal. 90% that have given this album an honest chance love most of it. This album did not fail. When there is time to finally reflect back, this album will be a monumental step in history......and a good one.

Whose history? This album will be in the top three of worse selling Journey albums ever since Fleischman was sent packing.

Eclipse had no need to be under the radar. Distributed by the top three music sellers in the U.S., coming on the heels of an 18 month prolonged media frenzy around DSB, there is NO excuse for the retail numbers here.
Journey can sing to the heavens that this is their greatest work ever but if no one is buying it, then the only history that will smile kindly upon it will be the band's own revisionist view of their past.

Talk about opportunities lost.. if this was the album to bring Pineda out of Perry's shadow and into the general public's consciousness, best grab some candles because all I'm seeing is a blackout.

[strangegrey]

Well, I'm not one to dance a jig at the funeral.....wait, fuck it, sure I am!

I'll be short. I skimmed through the first 3 pages of this thing....and the last 3 pages. Perhaps I missed it in the middle, but I'm not sure anyone has really recognized some of the real reasons this album is putting up shitty numbers:

First, it's not revelation. Take that as you may. It's not 3 discs wrapped into one, getting counted twice. The band cant parlay the 'poor arnel' story into any more album sales (you can't take more than one drag from that cigarette). That's a simple as you can put it. I'm not digging on arnel, I've actually come to appreciate the little fucker. I just think you guys were expecting eclipse to, well, eclipse (pun intended) revelation....and crack pipes were puffin a plenty.

Here's the thing....the other thing I haven't really seen, except from those that I've expected to see it from....is...and lets face it.

This new album is a piece of tightly wrapped, thinly encrusted dog shit. I've waited a good 2 weeks before coming on here to say this, but I've given the album more than enough of a chance to win me over.

It sucks. It's a total piece of shit. you people that dumped on generations should not be defending this turd....because hypocrisy would runneth over. I have never heard a worse record out of this band.....seriously. Holy crap. I dont even recognize half these songs as Journey songs. The other half are fucking damaged goods due to Fro's abusive guitar solos....and holy shit, what the fuck is up with his playing!?!!?!?! He's got arthritis or something? You know, Neal. if your playing is going to take a fucking dirt nap, you might do well to *reduce* the amount of solos on the record....not greatly expand them.

Sorry, I call it like I see it. Revelation was a bubble....a fucking sales bubble. Inflated sales figures designed to create some false momentum.....that people have decided to burst, because the second album is a turd. plain and simple.

One more thing, before the Arneliots start firing.....I actually think Arnel is the only shining part of eclipse....sad, because he fucking sang his little pinoy guts out...and Neal shat all over it by causing this record to be a complete fucking embarrassment.


Great Job, Fro. You gave us just what I thought you would. Like the little nealpoleonic fucker that you are, you took control of the whole recording process and the result was elephant shit.


I had read, earlier in this thread, that Friga may jump. More power to him. Here's hoping that Arnel does as well.....because, Arnel, I hope you're reading this......Neal wont look out for your best interests when things get bad....and they will, in short order.

[Ehwmatt]

Well, I'm not one to dance a jig at the funeral.....wait, fuck it, sure I am!

I'll be short. I skimmed through the first 3 pages of this thing....and the last 3 pages. Perhaps I missed it in the middle, but I'm not sure anyone has really recognized some of the real reasons this album is putting up shitty numbers:

First, it's not revelation. Take that as you may. It's not 3 discs wrapped into one, getting counted twice. The band cant parlay the 'poor arnel' story into any more album sales (you can't take more than one drag from that cigarette). That's a simple as you can put it. I'm not digging on arnel, I've actually come to appreciate the little fucker. I just think you guys were expecting eclipse to, well, eclipse (pun intended) revelation....and crack pipes were puffin a plenty.

Here's the thing....the other thing I haven't really seen, except from those that I've expected to see it from....is...and lets face it.

This new album is a piece of tightly wrapped, thinly encrusted dog shit. I've waited a good 2 weeks before coming on here to say this, but I've given the album more than enough of a chance to win me over.

It sucks. It's a total piece of shit. you people that dumped on generations should not be defending this turd....because hypocrisy would runneth over. I have never heard a worse record out of this band.....seriously. Holy crap. I dont even recognize half these songs as Journey songs. The other half are fucking damaged goods due to Fro's abusive guitar solos....and holy shit, what the fuck is up with his playing!?!!?!?! He's got arthritis or something? You know, Neal. if your playing is going to take a fucking dirt nap, you might do well to *reduce* the amount of solos on the record....not greatly expand them.

Sorry, I call it like I see it. Revelation was a bubble....a fucking sales bubble. Inflated sales figures designed to create some false momentum.....that people have decided to burst, because the second album is a turd. plain and simple.

One more thing, before the Arneliots start firing.....I actually think Arnel is the only shining part of eclipse....sad, because he fucking sang his little pinoy guts out...and Neal shat all over it buy causing this record to be a complete fucking embarrassment.


Great Job, Fro. You gave us just what I thought you would. Like the little nealpoleonic fucker that you are, you took control of the whole recording process and the result was elephant shit.


I had read, earlier in this thread, that Friga may jump. More power to him. Here's hoping that Arnel does as well.....because, Arnel, I hope you're reading this......Neal wont look out for your best interests when things get bad....and they will, in short order.

One thing I will agree is that Eclipse IS very similar musically to Generations. Very, very similar. I thought that from the get-go. So I agree in one sense, people who shit on Generations shouldn't be loving Eclipse (ok, the 4 lead singers factor is a difference, but still).

But, I always did appreciate the good stuff from Generations and still think that the production ruined that album a lot more than the songs did. That's not to say there weren't some absolute dog shit numbers on Gens, like Butterfly, Believe, and the like, but I enjoy the stronger efforts on there.

Eclipse is probably a 6/10 for me at this point. It just is what it is-and that's somewhat decent. This iteration of the band just doesn't have the same effect on me as even the Augeri version did.

[strangegrey]

The big difference between Ecplise and Generations is that there are some good songs on generations....granted there are bad ones.

On ecplise, there's not one good song. not one. Some songs have great parts within them, but they are fucking ruined by an extended solo section or some stupid change to the feel of the song as the song is morphed into something else.

[Ehwmatt]

The big difference between Ecplise and Generations is that there are some good songs on generations....granted there are bad ones.

On ecplise, there's not one good song. not one. Some songs have great parts within them, but they are fucking ruined by an extended solo section or some stupid change to the feel of the song as the song is morphed into something else.

I think Resonate and Anything Is Possible will be in my Journey playlist from now on... still think those are very good songs.

[parfait]

Well, I'm not one to dance a jig at the funeral.....wait, fuck it, sure I am!

I'll be short. I skimmed through the first 3 pages of this thing....and the last 3 pages. Perhaps I missed it in the middle, but I'm not sure anyone has really recognized some of the real reasons this album is putting up shitty numbers:

First, it's not revelation. Take that as you may. It's not 3 discs wrapped into one, getting counted twice. The band cant parlay the 'poor arnel' story into any more album sales (you can't take more than one drag from that cigarette). That's a simple as you can put it. I'm not digging on arnel, I've actually come to appreciate the little fucker. I just think you guys were expecting eclipse to, well, eclipse (pun intended) revelation....and crack pipes were puffin a plenty.

Here's the thing....the other thing I haven't really seen, except from those that I've expected to see it from....is...and lets face it.

This new album is a piece of tightly wrapped, thinly encrusted dog shit. I've waited a good 2 weeks before coming on here to say this, but I've given the album more than enough of a chance to win me over.

It sucks. It's a total piece of shit. you people that dumped on generations should not be defending this turd....because hypocrisy would runneth over. I have never heard a worse record out of this band.....seriously. Holy crap. I dont even recognize half these songs as Journey songs. The other half are fucking damaged goods due to Fro's abusive guitar solos....and holy shit, what the fuck is up with his playing!?!!?!?! He's got arthritis or something? You know, Neal. if your playing is going to take a fucking dirt nap, you might do well to *reduce* the amount of solos on the record....not greatly expand them.

Sorry, I call it like I see it. Revelation was a bubble....a fucking sales bubble. Inflated sales figures designed to create some false momentum.....that people have decided to burst, because the second album is a turd. plain and simple.

One more thing, before the Arneliots start firing.....I actually think Arnel is the only shining part of eclipse....sad, because he fucking sang his little pinoy guts out...and Neal shat all over it by causing this record to be a complete fucking embarrassment.


Great Job, Fro. You gave us just what I thought you would. Like the little nealpoleonic fucker that you are, you took control of the whole recording process and the result was elephant shit.


I had read, earlier in this thread, that Friga may jump. More power to him. Here's hoping that Arnel does as well.....because, Arnel, I hope you're reading this......Neal wont look out for your best interests when things get bad....and they will, in short order.

Literary greatness right there

Sounds inorganic and soulless at times but there's some good songs in there too. The drums ruin it for me though. Deen's bland, soulless metal drumming doesn't belong in Journey. Valory may be a good bassist, fuck do I know; since we never hear him on any album or live anyways, but the same cannot be said of the makeup wearing, troll doll punching the drums.

TBF is worth the price alone just for Smith's drumming and Neal's great tone and tasteful licks.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Now your off your rocker... the reason Vegas 2001 and Manila sold well is because both DVD's were the band doing the greatest hits.

No shit. That's why I explicitly said Eclipse should've been packaged with another "hits" dvd, and the band should've "gamed the system" (again). Learn how to read.

the only other "hits" they have are the DD... get a clue...

You've got some major reading comprehension problems, dude. Pray tell, just what other hits do you think I'm talking about? Both Vegas 2001 and Manilla featured the same DD hits and both sold (even without promotion). Other legacy acts (STYX etc) put out new hits compilations every year.

You're delusional... this thing is already selling like Generations... no is gonna buy it so no one is gonna hear it...

This is a red herring and has nothing to do with what I said. Eclipse made a bigger mark on the charts than Arrival, an album which is mostly loved by the hardcore fans. I guess Arrival was "non-Journeyish" too, right? If you’re using sales to make your argument, you’ve already lost.

This meal ticket is the DD... and that's gonna be done after this tour... as will them playing any Eclipse cuts... all they have is the DD and they'll wind up being played at state fairs... and Cain will choose home over the fair circuit...

At its lowest point, the band was already doing the corndog circuit with Augeri, and Cain didn’t budge. Worse still, Cain endured (or is it encouraged?) the indignity of hearing his songs being fraudulently mimed. From where they were a decade ago, the band is riding high. Try again...

[The_Noble_Cause]

The big difference between Ecplise and Generations is that there are some good songs on generations....granted there are bad ones.

On ecplise, there's not one good song. not one. Some songs have great parts within them, but they are fucking ruined by an extended solo section or some stupid change to the feel of the song as the song is morphed into something else.

I think Resonate and Anything Is Possible will be in my Journey playlist from now on... still think those are very good songs.

"Someone" and "Ritual" are as strong as anything off "Arrival." "Generations" had 3 good tracks and a bunch of B-sides (Ross singing? Jan Hammer covers?). I wouldn't give Eclipse a 100% like Andrew, but I think it's their personal best since Frontiers. TBF & Arrival were strong, but too much filler.

[Rick]

The big difference between Ecplise and Generations is that there are some good songs on generations....granted there are bad ones.

On ecplise, there's not one good song. not one. Some songs have great parts within them, but they are fucking ruined by an extended solo section or some stupid change to the feel of the song as the song is morphed into something else.

I think Resonate and Anything Is Possible will be in my Journey playlist from now on... still think those are very good songs.

"Someone" and "Ritual" are as strong as anything off "Arrival." "Generations" had 3 good tracks and a bunch of B-sides (Ross singing? Jan Hammer covers?). I wouldn't give Eclipse a 100% like Andrew, but I think it's their personal best since Frontiers. TBF & Arrival were strong, but too much filler.

Totally agree. I'm not sure what the naysayers aren't liking about it. It's a very strong record. I would like to have been able to hear what Shirley's version of Eclipse was like, just for comparison's sake, but I absofuckinglutely respect Schon for taking this record in his direction. But with that, will he have to concede to a whole album of sap from Cain?

[steveo777]

The big difference between Ecplise and Generations is that there are some good songs on generations....granted there are bad ones.

On ecplise, there's not one good song. not one. Some songs have great parts within them, but they are fucking ruined by an extended solo section or some stupid change to the feel of the song as the song is morphed into something else.

I think Resonate and Anything Is Possible will be in my Journey playlist from now on... still think those are very good songs.

"Someone" and "Ritual" are as strong as anything off "Arrival." "Generations" had 3 good tracks and a bunch of B-sides (Ross singing? Jan Hammer covers?). I wouldn't give Eclipse a 100% like Andrew, but I think it's their personal best since Frontiers. TBF & Arrival were strong, but too much filler.

Totally agree. I'm not sure what the naysayers aren't liking about it. It's a very strong record. I would like to have been able to hear what Shirley's version of Eclipse was like, just for comparison's sake, but I absofuckinglutely respect Schon for taking this record in his direction. But with that, will he have to concede to a whole album of sap from Cain?

Schon got his way on this and also has two solo albums coming. I'd say the next one, if there is one, is definitely gonna have a large Cain foot print on it.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Eclipse had no need to be under the radar. Distributed by the top three music sellers in the U.S., coming on the heels of an 18 month prolonged media frenzy around DSB, there is NO excuse for the retail numbers here.

TOTO's Africa just re-entered the charts. If the band released a new album tommorow, would anyone buy it? Just because one song is an evergreen doesn't mean the new stuff will sell itself. Gotta promote, promote, promote...

If this was the album to bring Pineda out of Perry's shadow and into the general public's consciousness, best grab some candles because all I'm seeing is a blackout.

Who gives a fuck? The past two albums of 100% new material (w/out any hits) didn't even debut in the top ten, much less the top 50! Some of you new Arnel fans have some seriously unreal expectations.

[steveo777]

Eclipse had no need to be under the radar. Distributed by the top three music sellers in the U.S., coming on the heels of an 18 month prolonged media frenzy around DSB, there is NO excuse for the retail numbers here.

TOTO's Africa just re-entered the charts. If the band released a new album tommorow, would anyone buy it? Just because one song is an evergreen doesn't mean the new stuff will sell itself. Gotta promote, promote, promote...

If this was the album to bring Pineda out of Perry's shadow and into the general public's consciousness, best grab some candles because all I'm seeing is a blackout.

Who gives a fuck? The past two albums of 100% new material (w/out any hits) didn't even debut in the top ten, much less the top 50! Some of you new Arnel fans have some seriously unreal expectations.

I don't. I just like some of the music and most of the new album, infact love half of the new album. For me it's better than anything after Frontiers.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I would like to have been able to hear what Shirley's version of Eclipse was like, just for comparison's sake.

I heard that Cain came in with his usual stack of wedding ballads - you know the type, think AATY - and Schon put his foot down and refused to put them on the cd. And Cain was pissed. I love how the ballads (Tantra, To Whom It May Concern) on Eclipse at least try to deviate from the schmaltzy norm.

[Loneman1]

I'll say a few tracks on "Eclipse" sort of caught my attention, but overall there is definitely some "x-factor" missing IMO. With "Revelation", I was definitely a little more into the album as a whole. I'll even go so far as to say "Where Did I Lose Your Love" ranks up there with one of my favorite Journey songs period. I don't know, "Eclipse" just seems to be missing something I can't really put my finger on. Without thinking about it in terms of Journey's history, if a no-name band put it out I think I would feel much differently about it since it would seem pretty outstanding, but the bar has been raised pretty damn high with this band. Maybe it will grow on me, who knows, I tend to have that happen from time to time. A buddy of mine whom I actually introduced to Journey years back loves the new album, and he tends to lean more towards the psycho-billy stuff nowadays, so that may say something. I might have finally just become jaded after all the years I've spent listening to the band and trading countless bootlegs.

Another thing "Revelation" had as previously mentioned was the whole Arnel story, and a bit more promotion with being on various shows which "Eclipse" was kind of lacking. All I saw were the occasional promo for their upcoming tour featuring the new album cover, and that was pretty much it. I'll never really understand Azoff's way of promoting the band.

[Monker]

The big difference between Ecplise and Generations is that there are some good songs on generations....granted there are bad ones.

On ecplise, there's not one good song. not one. Some songs have great parts within them, but they are fucking ruined by an extended solo section or some stupid change to the feel of the song as the song is morphed into something else.

That's just not true. There are good songs on Eclipse...it's all a matter of opinion an yway.

the 'big' difference is in production quality. Generations was a hack job and Eclipse obviously was an album the band actually cared about.

[Ehwmatt]

This is a red herring and has nothing to do with what I said. Eclipse made a bigger mark on the charts than Arrival, an album which is mostly loved by the hardcore fans. I guess Arrival was "non-Journeyish" too, right? If you’re using sales to make your argument, you’ve already lost.

TNC, you're a strong debater but isn't this a bit disingenuous? In numerical terms, Arrival has still outsold Eclipse thus far, correct? Not sure it's fair to make that comparison considering album sales figures were somewhat relevant back then. Of course, it cuts both ways because you can say in that case Arrival shoulda sold more, but I dunno. I wouldn't go with this comparison.

[Ehwmatt]

The big difference between Ecplise and Generations is that there are some good songs on generations....granted there are bad ones.

On ecplise, there's not one good song. not one. Some songs have great parts within them, but they are fucking ruined by an extended solo section or some stupid change to the feel of the song as the song is morphed into something else.

I think Resonate and Anything Is Possible will be in my Journey playlist from now on... still think those are very good songs.

"Someone" and "Ritual" are as strong as anything off "Arrival." "Generations" had 3 good tracks and a bunch of B-sides (Ross singing? Jan Hammer covers?). I wouldn't give Eclipse a 100% like Andrew, but I think it's their personal best since Frontiers. TBF & Arrival were strong, but too much filler.

Which tracks do you dig off Gens? For me, it's FITH, Place In Your Heart, Never Too Late, Beyond the Clouds, and Out of Harm's way.

I haven't gotten much into Ritual yet. Someone is solid, but parts of it just sound a bit off to me. One of the chord changes in the chorus prevents it from soaring like it should, the synths are a bit cheesy at the start, and I really don't dig the "someeeeeoneeee lovessss youuuu" chant in the post-chorus.

[The_Noble_Cause]

TNC, you're a strong debater but isn't this a bit disingenuous? In numerical terms, Arrival has still outsold Eclipse thus far, correct? Not sure it's fair to make that comparison considering album sales figures were somewhat relevant back then. Of course, it cuts both ways because you can say in that case Arrival shoulda sold more, but I dunno. I wouldn't go with this comparison.

In total sales, yes. But "Eclipse" opened in the top 20, the first Journey release to do so since TBF. For a band without it's most famous member, I'm not sure why that is such a bad thing. Imagine how it would've sold if it was actually promoted properly.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Which tracks do you dig off Gens? For me, it's FITH, Place In Your Heart, Never Too Late, Beyond the Clouds, and Out of Harm's way.

Same here. "A Better Life" is good too, but needs to be cut down. Would like Shirley to have taken a scalpel to it, the same way he masterfully re-arranged TPIYH for Revelation. For what it is, "Knowing that you Love Me", ain't all that bad either. If every Journey album needs an overblown cheesey ballad, this is a good one. "Better Together" is a cool cut - sounds like something from Augeri's Tyketto cd. Gens had the potential to be great, but Neal's priorities lied elsewhere. Fans waited so long for a proper follow-up to Arrival, and what they got was half-assed.

[strangegrey]

The big difference between Ecplise and Generations is that there are some good songs on generations....granted there are bad ones.

On ecplise, there's not one good song. not one. Some songs have great parts within them, but they are fucking ruined by an extended solo section or some stupid change to the feel of the song as the song is morphed into something else.

I think Resonate and Anything Is Possible will be in my Journey playlist from now on... still think those are very good songs.

Anything is Possible is a great fucking song.........until it turns to shite with Schon's solo section and the minor-key crapola fest it becomes. This is the producer's fault. plain and simple. A good producer (and not a drunk idiot or a no-name fuckwad eating out of Fro's lap) would have told the band, 'you've got a great song, lets edit out the bullshit at the end that ruins the song, and we've got a hit' instead, due to nealpoleon's insistence, likely, it stayed...and the song was fucking ruined. what a waste!

The rest of the songs simply do not do it for me. They suck. plain and simply. I can easily pick 4-5 songs off of Generations that are truly better songs (albeit, maybe not better recorded, just better songs) than anything on eclipse. To say anything else is a desperate back pedal...to protect either the golden pinoy, Fro's dick-poor judgment, or the lot of them.....

I'm still reeling from the 100% rating here...I just don't get it. How can an album this fucking bad warrant such a rating is beyond me. I've had some disagreements with Wombat's ratings, but usually we're talking a range or 5-10%, not 30-40%. I wouldn't have given eclipse a 60%....and it's not meant to undercut Andrew. I think he's really got a hold on what's good or bad on the scene. I just can't agree with him on this one. It's arguably Journey's worst ever.....by leaps and bounds.....

and having said that, it speaks volumes to just where Journey is right now. Dan constantly barks at just how old and tired Steve Perry actually is...and he may be right, but I am now utterly convinced that the only thing that can save Journey is Steve Perry himself....and that's not saying much at all.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Anything is Possible is a great fucking song.........until it turns to shite with Schon's solo section and the minor-key crapola fest it becomes. This is the producer's fault. plain and simple. A good producer (and not a drunk idiot or a no-name fuckwad eating out of Fro's lap) would have told the band, 'you've got a great song, lets edit out the bullshit at the end that ruins the song, and we've got a hit' instead, due to nealpoleon's insistence, likely, it stayed...and the song was fucking ruined. what a waste!

Any radio version of AIP would likely remove the solo outro. The "drunk idiot" prolly did tell Schon to cut it. Schon was the one pushing to make the songs un-radio friendly. Not sure why any fan would push the band to be more commercial or TOP 40 friendly. We've seen that before. You end up with bland singles like "All the Way", and the guitar taking a serious backseat.