Was the Newcastle Metro concert played in lower key?

[Carlitto H@kk]

Just curious...

Why is it really such a huge deal to some of you that they've gone down a half-step in tuning?
Really, what is the big deal? Maybe they are finally getting smart and trying to preserve
their frontman's voice for the long haul instead of having him blow it out early in the tour...

Does it bother you that you may have to sing-a-long in a lower-key yourself???

Sure, you can tell they are lower, but they really don't sound that bad at all,
and only the hardcore fans in forums like this are really going to notice or care...

After what happened with guys like Espee & Augeri, I think they are being pretty smart on this one.
Just my opinion...

[steveo777]

Just curious...

Why is it really such a huge deal to some of you that they've gone down a half-step in tuning?
Really, what is the big deal? Maybe they are finally getting smart and trying to preserve
their frontman's voice for the long haul instead of having him blow it out early in the tour...

Does it bother you that you may have to sing-a-long in a lower-key yourself???

Sure, you can tell they are lower, but they really don't sound that bad at all,
and only the hardcore fans in forums like this are really going to notice or care...

After what happened with guys like Espee & Augeri, I think they are being pretty smart on this one.
Just my opinion...

I agree with you and the thread was only posted as a reference that it has been noticed and it looks like
this concert is where it went down half a step. At some point the historians will want to remember this
date.

[Gideon]

I understand downtuning dramatically, but even taken down 1/2 a step, the catalogue requires a powerful tenor voice. We're not getting to Bob Seger, Eddie Money, or even JSS levels here, folks.

All this makes me feel bad for Perry, Augeri, and Neal and co. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Rockindeano]

As you all know, I nolonger follow these dicks, but I did glance at the schedule. I swear I saw back to back to back gigs lined up. Are they fucking insane? The hardest catalog to sing in music and they make their guy go out and do a three nighter? Real smart move, unless the end is near, in which case, why detune at all, unless Pineda was sick, or had a cold, which is entirely possible. It's not like singing BA's catalog, where he does 10 nights in a row. The Journey songs are just so hard to sing.

And about "Never Again" customers bailing before the encore- tell me, how many of you bolted knowing LTS was the last song? I know I did, every time.

[steveo777]

It sounds like Glasgow was back to original key tonight. I wonder if AP was sick prior?

[Aaron]

Dude,

It's a huge deal because the songs loose their meaning sonically and convey a different message. It goes back to how a given tone makes you feel when you hear it. One of the reasons I like Journey, and I believe most others do as well, is because their music is feel good, happy music. When those songs are played and sang in a lower key, they aren't nearly as happy anymore. It's like the difference between a listening to Creed and Journey (or used to be anyhow). Creed stuff is played in lower keys which gives the music a darker tone. Some people describle it as edgy or moody. Some people describe it as modern (which really pisses me off by the way). Listen to City of Hope off the new cd between 1:20 to 1:23. Listen the guitar and bass line together there and that should give a decent example darker tones. The darker tone just doesn't fit with the message of the song. I think it's Neal trying to fit in with today's music sounds and smelling the dog's ass. I'm not a big fan of followers. Neal should be savey enough to know better. BTW, the same riff was released on Loverboy's last cd. Was it lifted?

Anyhow, that's as good as I can do describing why it's a big deal. And I guess philisophically I struggle with detuning for a replacement singer (which is the only reason to detune). For Perry, no issues, but for a replacement, no. There are clearly guys out there that can do it, listen to James Durbin on Idol. He could do it, no problem.

s

Just curious...

Why is it really such a huge deal to some of you that they've gone down a half-step in tuning?
Really, what is the big deal? Maybe they are finally getting smart and trying to preserve
their frontman's voice for the long haul instead of having him blow it out early in the tour...

Does it bother you that you may have to sing-a-long in a lower-key yourself???

Sure, you can tell they are lower, but they really don't sound that bad at all,
and only the hardcore fans in forums like this are really going to notice or care...

After what happened with guys like Espee & Augeri, I think they are being pretty smart on this one.
Just my opinion...

[Carlitto H@kk]

Dude,

It's a huge deal because the songs loose their meaning sonically and convey a different message. It goes back to how a given tone makes you feel when you hear it. One of the reasons I like Journey, and I believe most others do as well, is because their music is feel good, happy music. When those songs are played and sang in a lower key, they aren't nearly as happy anymore. It's like the difference between a listening to Creed and Journey (or used to be anyhow). Creed stuff is played in lower keys which gives the music a darker tone. Some people describle it as edgy or moody. Some people describe it as modern (which really pisses me off by the way). Listen to City of Hope off the new cd between 1:20 to 1:23. Listen the guitar and bass line together there and that should give a decent example darker tones. The darker tone just doesn't fit with the message of the song. I think it's Neal trying to fit in with today's music sounds and smelling the dog's ass. I'm not a big fan of followers. Neal should be savey enough to know better. BTW, the same riff was released on Loverboy's last cd. Was it lifted?

Anyhow, that's as good as I can do describing why it's a big deal. And I guess philisophically I struggle with detuning for a replacement singer (which is the only reason to detune). For Perry, no issues, but for a replacement, no. There are clearly guys out there that can do it, listen to James Durbin on Idol. He could do it, no problem.

Its only a half-step... Really? They lose meaning and convey different messages down a half-step?
You think Journey invented this incredible idea of tuning down a bit to help singers get through years of touring?
If tuning down a halp-step ruins ANY song for you, then you take things WAY too seriously...
And had they tuned down for Perry years ago, maybe his pipes wouldn't be toast, same goes for Augeri...

[Gideon]

There are clearly guys out there that can do it, listen to James Durbin on Idol. He could do it, no problem.

So based on a handful of performances throughout the season, you conclude James would be able to handle the rigors of touring with Journey's catalogue in full key? Perry himself couldn't do it forever without detuning or increasing the tempo of the songs to Tasmanian Devil proportions, and these songs were written with his voice in mind.

[Don]

James Durbin? Him doing Journey went over like a lead balloon on Idol. It was the equivalent of Elvis singing Don't Stop Believin' in between taking bites of a peanutbutter & banana sandwich, give me a fucking break already.

[Pacfanweb]

Dude,

It's a huge deal because the songs loose their meaning sonically and convey a different message. It goes back to how a given tone makes you feel when you hear it. One of the reasons I like Journey, and I believe most others do as well, is because their music is feel good, happy music. When those songs are played and sang in a lower key, they aren't nearly as happy anymore. It's like the difference between a listening to Creed and Journey (or used to be anyhow). Creed stuff is played in lower keys which gives the music a darker tone. Some people describle it as edgy or moody. Some people describe it as modern (which really pisses me off by the way). Listen to City of Hope off the new cd between 1:20 to 1:23. Listen the guitar and bass line together there and that should give a decent example darker tones. The darker tone just doesn't fit with the message of the song. I think it's Neal trying to fit in with today's music sounds and smelling the dog's ass. I'm not a big fan of followers. Neal should be savey enough to know better. BTW, the same riff was released on Loverboy's last cd. Was it lifted?

Anyhow, that's as good as I can do describing why it's a big deal. And I guess philisophically I struggle with detuning for a replacement singer (which is the only reason to detune). For Perry, no issues, but for a replacement, no. There are clearly guys out there that can do it, listen to James Durbin on Idol. He could do it, no problem.

Its only a half-step... Really? They lose meaning and convey different messages down a half-step?
You think Journey invented this incredible idea of tuning down a bit to help singers get through years of touring?
If tuning down a halp-step ruins ANY song for you, then you take things WAY too seriously...
And had they tuned down for Perry years ago, maybe his pipes wouldn't be toast, same goes for Augeri...

Totally agree. Makes absolutely no difference to anyone at the show, other than the "voice critics" that post here. 99.9% of concert-goers will never know the difference.
With the range most Journey songs require, it makes perfect sense to tune down when playing them night after night.

[Don]

I'd say the issues at the shows so far have more to do with Journey's overall sound mix, rather than anything to do with stepping down or what not.. When you're audio fidelity is getting punked in the review department by your opening bands, time to fire the sound guy.

[steveo777]

I'd say the issues at the shows so far have more to do with Journey's overall sound mix, rather than anything to do with stepping down or what not.. When you're audio fidelity is getting punked in the review department by your opening bands, time to fire the sound guy.

I'm surprised Neal hasn't gone into total melt down on the sound department yet. This shit better get fixed before that get back to the USA.
I'll be at two shows this year. There were the same complaints coming from the Dublin gig last night.

[Don]

I'd say the issues at the shows so far have more to do with Journey's overall sound mix, rather than anything to do with stepping down or what not.. When you're audio fidelity is getting punked in the review department by your opening bands, time to fire the sound guy.

I'm surprised Neal hasn't gone into total melt down on the sound department yet. This shit better get fixed before that get back to the USA.
I'll be at two shows this year. There were the same complaints coming from the Dublin gig last night.

Imagine if Neal himself is part of the problem. I can almost hear Schon saying; "Peg all the meters, man. Louder is harder, lets rock!"

[steveo777]

I'd say the issues at the shows so far have more to do with Journey's overall sound mix, rather than anything to do with stepping down or what not.. When you're audio fidelity is getting punked in the review department by your opening bands, time to fire the sound guy.

I'm surprised Neal hasn't gone into total melt down on the sound department yet. This shit better get fixed before that get back to the USA.
I'll be at two shows this year. There were the same complaints coming from the Dublin gig last night.

Imagine if Neal himself is part of the problem. I can almost hear Schon saying; "Peg all the meters, man. Louder is harder, lets rock!"

Well, he sort of deaf. Maybe he needs to leave being the ears to someone else.

[Ehwmatt]

Dude,

It's a huge deal because the songs loose their meaning sonically and convey a different message. It goes back to how a given tone makes you feel when you hear it. One of the reasons I like Journey, and I believe most others do as well, is because their music is feel good, happy music. When those songs are played and sang in a lower key, they aren't nearly as happy anymore. It's like the difference between a listening to Creed and Journey (or used to be anyhow). Creed stuff is played in lower keys which gives the music a darker tone. Some people describle it as edgy or moody. Some people describe it as modern (which really pisses me off by the way). Listen to City of Hope off the new cd between 1:20 to 1:23. Listen the guitar and bass line together there and that should give a decent example darker tones. The darker tone just doesn't fit with the message of the song. I think it's Neal trying to fit in with today's music sounds and smelling the dog's ass. I'm not a big fan of followers. Neal should be savey enough to know better. BTW, the same riff was released on Loverboy's last cd. Was it lifted?

Anyhow, that's as good as I can do describing why it's a big deal. And I guess philisophically I struggle with detuning for a replacement singer (which is the only reason to detune). For Perry, no issues, but for a replacement, no. There are clearly guys out there that can do it, listen to James Durbin on Idol. He could do it, no problem.

Its only a half-step... Really? They lose meaning and convey different messages down a half-step?
You think Journey invented this incredible idea of tuning down a bit to help singers get through years of touring?
If tuning down a halp-step ruins ANY song for you, then you take things WAY too seriously...
And had they tuned down for Perry years ago, maybe his pipes wouldn't be toast, same goes for Augeri...

Totally agree. Makes absolutely no difference to anyone at the show, other than the "voice critics" that post here. 99.9% of concert-goers will never know the difference.
With the range most Journey songs require, it makes perfect sense to tune down when playing them night after night.

Totally disagree. Most people WILL notice after hearing the classic tunes played 1/2 a step down that something is "off." Journey relies on a lot of open guitar chords, high guitar leads, and of course, high vocals that even people that aren't trained musicians or diehard fans will notice that something is "off," even if they can't say why (i.e., that the band has detuned half a step). And they won't like it.

People don't notice when a band like Leppard does it as much because (a) they use a lot more power chords as opposed to the open chords Neal uses more often (e.g., Stone in love vs Animal or Pour Some Sugar) (b) their guitar solo style is a lot more "hair metal," thus making the detuning when it comes time for guitar solos a lot less obvious than Neal's typical soaring solos do and (c) their lead vocals are not nearly as high pitched.

For the reasons I just outlined, people WILL notice Journey sounds "off" and they will not like it.

Now, I don't think everyone will notice it. But it's not something that only a few diehards or nitpicky people on MR would notice, that's for sure.

[steveo777]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwG0OFrgu9k

I don't think they're downtuned here tonight in Belfast.

[RumTumJM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwG0OFrgu9k

I don't think they're downtuned here tonight in Belfast.

That definitely SOUNDS like the original key!

Here is a video of the Long Island show I was at in 2009. We all know they detuned that tour, and you can hear the difference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESXDFyPFaXA

[Aaron]

That may be but you asked the question so quit being an asshole when someone tries to answer it for you. If you already knew the answer then why ask the question? Oh, yes, return to the first sentence and go listen to Biohazard.

Dude,

It's a huge deal because the songs loose their meaning sonically and convey a different message. It goes back to how a given tone makes you feel when you hear it. One of the reasons I like Journey, and I believe most others do as well, is because their music is feel good, happy music. When those songs are played and sang in a lower key, they aren't nearly as happy anymore. It's like the difference between a listening to Creed and Journey (or used to be anyhow). Creed stuff is played in lower keys which gives the music a darker tone. Some people describle it as edgy or moody. Some people describe it as modern (which really pisses me off by the way). Listen to City of Hope off the new cd between 1:20 to 1:23. Listen the guitar and bass line together there and that should give a decent example darker tones. The darker tone just doesn't fit with the message of the song. I think it's Neal trying to fit in with today's music sounds and smelling the dog's ass. I'm not a big fan of followers. Neal should be savey enough to know better. BTW, the same riff was released on Loverboy's last cd. Was it lifted?

Anyhow, that's as good as I can do describing why it's a big deal. And I guess philisophically I struggle with detuning for a replacement singer (which is the only reason to detune). For Perry, no issues, but for a replacement, no. There are clearly guys out there that can do it, listen to James Durbin on Idol. He could do it, no problem.

Its only a half-step... Really? They lose meaning and convey different messages down a half-step?
You think Journey invented this incredible idea of tuning down a bit to help singers get through years of touring?
If tuning down a halp-step ruins ANY song for you, then you take things WAY too seriously...
And had they tuned down for Perry years ago, maybe his pipes wouldn't be toast, same goes for Augeri...

[Aaron]

Yep you can tell. And how long did Perry go with zero detuning and a difficult schedule? 9 years is how long with no detuning.

There are clearly guys out there that can do it, listen to James Durbin on Idol. He could do it, no problem.

So based on a handful of performances throughout the season, you conclude James would be able to handle the rigors of touring with Journey's catalogue in full key? Perry himself couldn't do it forever without detuning or increasing the tempo of the songs to Tasmanian Devil proportions, and these songs were written with his voice in mind.

[Aaron]

Ditto, not everyone will pick up on it but most will. They won't be able to tell you why but they'll know it's off a bit. At least the people that aren't tone deaf.

Dude,

It's a huge deal because the songs loose their meaning sonically and convey a different message. It goes back to how a given tone makes you feel when you hear it. One of the reasons I like Journey, and I believe most others do as well, is because their music is feel good, happy music. When those songs are played and sang in a lower key, they aren't nearly as happy anymore. It's like the difference between a listening to Creed and Journey (or used to be anyhow). Creed stuff is played in lower keys which gives the music a darker tone. Some people describle it as edgy or moody. Some people describe it as modern (which really pisses me off by the way). Listen to City of Hope off the new cd between 1:20 to 1:23. Listen the guitar and bass line together there and that should give a decent example darker tones. The darker tone just doesn't fit with the message of the song. I think it's Neal trying to fit in with today's music sounds and smelling the dog's ass. I'm not a big fan of followers. Neal should be savey enough to know better. BTW, the same riff was released on Loverboy's last cd. Was it lifted?

Anyhow, that's as good as I can do describing why it's a big deal. And I guess philisophically I struggle with detuning for a replacement singer (which is the only reason to detune). For Perry, no issues, but for a replacement, no. There are clearly guys out there that can do it, listen to James Durbin on Idol. He could do it, no problem.

Its only a half-step... Really? They lose meaning and convey different messages down a half-step?
You think Journey invented this incredible idea of tuning down a bit to help singers get through years of touring?
If tuning down a halp-step ruins ANY song for you, then you take things WAY too seriously...
And had they tuned down for Perry years ago, maybe his pipes wouldn't be toast, same goes for Augeri...

Totally agree. Makes absolutely no difference to anyone at the show, other than the "voice critics" that post here. 99.9% of concert-goers will never know the difference.
With the range most Journey songs require, it makes perfect sense to tune down when playing them night after night.

Totally disagree. Most people WILL notice after hearing the classic tunes played 1/2 a step down that something is "off." Journey relies on a lot of open guitar chords, high guitar leads, and of course, high vocals that even people that aren't trained musicians or diehard fans will notice that something is "off," even if they can't say why (i.e., that the band has detuned half a step). And they won't like it.

People don't notice when a band like Leppard does it as much because (a) they use a lot more power chords as opposed to the open chords Neal uses more often (e.g., Stone in love vs Animal or Pour Some Sugar) (b) their guitar solo style is a lot more "hair metal," thus making the detuning when it comes time for guitar solos a lot less obvious than Neal's typical soaring solos do and (c) their lead vocals are not nearly as high pitched.

For the reasons I just outlined, people WILL notice Journey sounds "off" and they will not like it.

Now, I don't think everyone will notice it. But it's not something that only a few diehards or nitpicky people on MR would notice, that's for sure.

[Gideon]

Yep you can tell.

I'm so excited, I get to tell all my friends that I've finally met someone who's omniscient.
That's a pretty nifty trick you've got there.

And how long did Perry go with zero detuning and a difficult schedule? 9 years is how long with no detuning.

7 years of actual touring, I think.
So the guy whom this catalog was based around could only do it for 7 years in his prime. With that in mind, you might just be asking a little too much out of people.

[Aaron]

Well I'm glad you've finally figured it out, it takes most folks much longer.

Maybe you expect too little? If you're happy with a bar band that's your right. There are plenty of people in their prime right now that can sing that catalog. Why would you expect anything less than the original with a replacement singer? Low expectations? Are you a public union member or something? WTF?

Yep you can tell.

I'm so excited, I get to tell all my friends that I've finally met someone who's omniscient.
That's a pretty nifty trick you've got there.

And how long did Perry go with zero detuning and a difficult schedule? 9 years is how long with no detuning.

7 years of actual touring, I think.
So the guy whom this catalog was based around could only do it for 7 years in his prime. With that in mind, you might just be asking a little too much out of people.

[Gideon]

Well I'm glad you've finally figured it out, it takes most folks much longer.

In all fairness, it is kinda difficult to believe you when the totality of evidence you offer is "lots of people can do it" and "James Durbin definitely can do it."
But then I read between the lines and realize that you don't need to prove shit when you're omniscient.
I've got you all figured out.

Maybe you expect too little? If you're happy with a bar band that's your right. There are plenty of people in their prime right now that can sing that catalog. Why would you expect anything less than the original with a replacement singer? Low expectations? Are you a public union member or something? WTF?

Nah, I don't expect anything more out of these guys than I expect from Perry. In fact, I expect less. These songs were written with Perry and Perry's specific voice, specific strengths and gifts, in mind. He began and ended his career "in key" notably younger than Arnel is now. Meaning if he can't do it, I sure as fuck don't expect someone whose voice isn't as distinguished as Perry's to do it.

[steveo777]

They should just play more gigs in standard key, then once they've burned this guy out, maybe they'll get one of those cover band singers from China next time.

[Gideon]

They should just play more gigs in standard key, then once they've burned this guy out, maybe they'll get one of those cover band singers from China next time.

In that case, I suspect that someone (perhaps not Jehovah here) will be bitching that they can't keep a singer.

[FishinMagician]

Some people have better ears than others, that's all.

[Carlitto H@kk]

That may be but you asked the question so quit being an asshole when someone tries to answer it for you. If you already knew the answer then why ask the question? Oh, yes, return to the first sentence and go listen to Biohazard.

Not being an assshole at all, and again, you must take things WAY too seriously...
James Durbin?!?!?!? That's the bvest you could offer? So what. He's a twenty-something kid that can hit some high notes...
But he doesn't have a pubic's hair worth of emotion or control required to sing a catalog like Journey's night after night.

I guess people will decide on their own; would you rather the band just stop touring and retire since they keep putting singers out to pasture,
or would you rather they try to play things smart to keep this thing going awhile longer?

[Aaron]

Nope, I'm not taking thing too seriously, just calling the situation as I see it. You asked a question, I tried to answer it and you didn't like the answer and busted my balls = asshole.

If you you can't tell the difference in a half or whole step down, how can you tell if a guy has emotion or control or can hit high notes for that matter? Really?

That may be but you asked the question so quit being an asshole when someone tries to answer it for you. If you already knew the answer then why ask the question? Oh, yes, return to the first sentence and go listen to Biohazard.

Not being an assshole at all, and again, you must take things WAY too seriously...
James Durbin?!?!?!? That's the bvest you could offer? So what. He's a twenty-something kid that can hit some high notes...
But he doesn't have a pubic's hair worth of emotion or control required to sing a catalog like Journey's night after night.

I guess people will decide on their own; would you rather the band just stop touring and retire since they keep putting singers out to pasture,
or would you rather they try to play things smart to keep this thing going awhile longer?

[Gideon]

You're not suggesting that one needs to be able to match Steve Perry's range in order to convey emotions or display vocal control?
You realize you've just alienated a sizeable chunk of musical artists for the past 40 years, right?

[Seven Wishes2]

Perry toured for ten years between late '77 and the Achorage gig in '87, pretty much with no reprieve.