Eclipse Billboard - Flop

[Don]

Arrival had sold, up to July 2003 170,000 copies. That's about 5k a month average but we know that it left the chart after only a short time. I would think most of those sales came in the first six months of release with probably 10 to 15 a week for the first couple months or so.

[Greg]

You're assuming Arrival would have sold the same number of units now as it did in 2001, when as you just stated there are fewer albums being sold overall. It debuted at #56 and Eclipse at #13. That is the only valid comparison.

So if album A sells 100,000 copies and charts at #56 and album B sells 30,000 copies and charts at #13, you're telling me a band is not going to think better albums sales mean something? That's quite illogical.

[Eric]

You're assuming Arrival would have sold the same number of units now as it did in 2001, when as you just stated there are fewer albums being sold overall. It debuted at #56 and Eclipse at #13. That is the only valid comparison.

So if album A sells 100,000 copies and charts at #56 and album B sells 30,000 copies and charts at #13, you're telling me a band is not going to think better albums sales mean something? That's quite illogical.

You need to take a look at the total number of albums sold by all artists in those weeks. If the week that Album A sold 100k there were 10 million albums sold and in the week Album B sold 30k there were only 1 million albums sold than you know you can't really compare.

I guess it depends on if we're talking "marketshare" or just how many people heard your music.

But what I was saying is you can't assume 10 years later when fewer people are buying albums that the same number of Arrival albums would have been sold.

[Don]

What has helped Arrival and Escape, Frontiers, etc. to puff up their numbers late in the retail cycle is the steep discounts that a big label like Sony can offer and being able to get the discounted product from multiple sources.
Best Buy has Arrival for seven bucks and even offers the SACD version for 20 dollars. At Target , the album can be had for 6 dollars and as we have seen at Wal-Mart over the years, the whole Journey back catalog has been marked down to a fiver on certain occasions.
The inhouse releases like Generations and Red 13 can't do that and Wal-Mart doesn't seem too keen to offer steep cuts on its own already bargain priced exclusives either so the chances of seeing Revelation fly under the radar with 500 to 1,000 sales a week years after release seems pretty slim.

[Greg]

You're assuming Arrival would have sold the same number of units now as it did in 2001, when as you just stated there are fewer albums being sold overall. It debuted at #56 and Eclipse at #13. That is the only valid comparison.

So if album A sells 100,000 copies and charts at #56 and album B sells 30,000 copies and charts at #13, you're telling me a band is not going to think better albums sales mean something? That's quite illogical.

You need to take a look at the total number of albums sold by all artists in those weeks. If the week that Album A sold 100k there were 10 million albums sold and in the week Album B sold 30k there were only 1 million albums sold than you know you can't really compare.

I guess it depends on if we're talking "marketshare" or just how many people heard your music.

But what I was saying is you can't assume 10 years later when fewer people are buying albums that the same number of Arrival albums would have been sold.

You also have to look at it like this as well. Ten years ago, artists needed to have more physical album sales to chart decently, since overall album sales were much higher back then. If Eclipse sold the same amount back then, it probably would have charted comparably around the same position as where Arrival did. I don't know the numbers, but if what Don said is close to accurate, then both albums did roughly about the same, more than likely, on their opening week. Album sales presently are in the crapper, so Eclipse didn't need to sale that much to chart. That's why I say it's illogical to say that chart position is the only thing to go by when that isn't really the case at all. It always comes back to money, and the truth is, the more albums you sell, the more successful it is because the more money you're making from those album sales. I would assume if an album made me $80,000 compared to $8,000, I would be more satisfied with the former as opposed to the latter.

[Eric]

You also have to look at it like this as well. Ten years ago, artists needed to have more physical album sales to chart decently, since overall album sales were much higher back then. If Eclipse sold the same amount back then, it probably would have charted comparably around the same position as where Arrival did. I don't know the numbers, but if what Don said is close to accurate, then both albums did roughly about the same, more than likely, on their opening week. Album sales presently are in the crapper, so Eclipse didn't need to sale that much to chart. That's why I say it's illogical to say that chart position is the only thing to go by when that isn't really the case at all. It always comes back to money, and the truth is, the more albums you sell, the more successful it is because the more money you're making from those album sales. I would assume if an album made me $80,000 compared to $8,000, I would be more satisfied with the former as opposed to the latter.

I do hear ya...but I'm not sure how they got paid, etc. I'd also like to see how many other Journey albums have moved the past couple weeks. I know Arrival was successful at that. I think its a shame because both albums are better than the most other albums around it.

[Don]

You also have to look at it like this as well. Ten years ago, artists needed to have more physical album sales to chart decently, since overall album sales were much higher back then. If Eclipse sold the same amount back then, it probably would have charted comparably around the same position as where Arrival did. I don't know the numbers, but if what Don said is close to accurate, then both albums did roughly about the same, more than likely, on their opening week. Album sales presently are in the crapper, so Eclipse didn't need to sale that much to chart. That's why I say it's illogical to say that chart position is the only thing to go by when that isn't really the case at all. It always comes back to money, and the truth is, the more albums you sell, the more successful it is because the more money you're making from those album sales. I would assume if an album made me $80,000 compared to $8,000, I would be more satisfied with the former as opposed to the latter.

I do hear ya...but I'm not sure how they got paid, etc. I'd also like to see how many other Journey albums have moved the past couple weeks. I know Arrival was successful at that. I think its a shame because both albums are better than the most other albums around it.

In the digital realm, The Greatest Hits, Frontiers and Escape all bounced in and out of the top 100 downloads on iTunes, Amazon and Wal-Mart over the past few weeks. Even Captured and Infinity showed up for a day or two.
I would expect to see TGH outselling Eclipse by the end of the month. Not that it will be a lot of sales but The back catalog will probably get a little bounce with Journey touring stateside and the 30th anniversary segment on CBS morning show. Throw in a required playing of DSB on the NBC appearance by the band and you'll have The Greatest Hits easily outselling Eclipse the rest of the summer.

[Greg]

You also have to look at it like this as well. Ten years ago, artists needed to have more physical album sales to chart decently, since overall album sales were much higher back then. If Eclipse sold the same amount back then, it probably would have charted comparably around the same position as where Arrival did. I don't know the numbers, but if what Don said is close to accurate, then both albums did roughly about the same, more than likely, on their opening week. Album sales presently are in the crapper, so Eclipse didn't need to sale that much to chart. That's why I say it's illogical to say that chart position is the only thing to go by when that isn't really the case at all. It always comes back to money, and the truth is, the more albums you sell, the more successful it is because the more money you're making from those album sales. I would assume if an album made me $80,000 compared to $8,000, I would be more satisfied with the former as opposed to the latter.

I do hear ya...but I'm not sure how they got paid, etc. I'd also like to see how many other Journey albums have moved the past couple weeks. I know Arrival was successful at that. I think its a shame because both albums are better than the most other albums around it.

Maybe this wouldn't help at all, but I sometimes wonder if they should just do away with chart positions for albums, since like you said, most albums are probably not worth a purchase as a whole. This could be a reality since CD sales continue to decline and people are more inclined to purchase individual tracks rather than an entire album. Just concentrate on individual single charts. I think there is where you really measure how successful and how connected you are as an artist with your fans and music listeners in general. Of course, it would put a lot of pressure on that artist to make music that would be heard by the masses.

[Don]

You also have to look at it like this as well. Ten years ago, artists needed to have more physical album sales to chart decently, since overall album sales were much higher back then. If Eclipse sold the same amount back then, it probably would have charted comparably around the same position as where Arrival did. I don't know the numbers, but if what Don said is close to accurate, then both albums did roughly about the same, more than likely, on their opening week. Album sales presently are in the crapper, so Eclipse didn't need to sale that much to chart. That's why I say it's illogical to say that chart position is the only thing to go by when that isn't really the case at all. It always comes back to money, and the truth is, the more albums you sell, the more successful it is because the more money you're making from those album sales. I would assume if an album made me $80,000 compared to $8,000, I would be more satisfied with the former as opposed to the latter.

I do hear ya...but I'm not sure how they got paid, etc. I'd also like to see how many other Journey albums have moved the past couple weeks. I know Arrival was successful at that. I think its a shame because both albums are better than the most other albums around it.

Maybe this wouldn't help at all, but I sometimes wonder if they should just do away with chart positions for albums, since like you said, most albums are probably not worth a purchase as a whole. This could be a reality since CD sales continue to decline and people are more inclined to purchase individual tracks rather than an entire album. Just concentrate on individual single charts. I think there is where you really measure how successful and how connected you are as an artist with your fans and music listeners in general. Of course, it would put a lot of pressure on that artist to make music that would be heard by the masses.

Billboard has been doing that gradually the last year or so, placing more emphasis on Digital singles than Albums as a whole. Of course there are exceptions like Gaga, Taylor Swift, insert generic rapper name here, and a few other artists that will still have big debut weeks for new albums.

[Greg]

You also have to look at it like this as well. Ten years ago, artists needed to have more physical album sales to chart decently, since overall album sales were much higher back then. If Eclipse sold the same amount back then, it probably would have charted comparably around the same position as where Arrival did. I don't know the numbers, but if what Don said is close to accurate, then both albums did roughly about the same, more than likely, on their opening week. Album sales presently are in the crapper, so Eclipse didn't need to sale that much to chart. That's why I say it's illogical to say that chart position is the only thing to go by when that isn't really the case at all. It always comes back to money, and the truth is, the more albums you sell, the more successful it is because the more money you're making from those album sales. I would assume if an album made me $80,000 compared to $8,000, I would be more satisfied with the former as opposed to the latter.

I do hear ya...but I'm not sure how they got paid, etc. I'd also like to see how many other Journey albums have moved the past couple weeks. I know Arrival was successful at that. I think its a shame because both albums are better than the most other albums around it.

Maybe this wouldn't help at all, but I sometimes wonder if they should just do away with chart positions for albums, since like you said, most albums are probably not worth a purchase as a whole. This could be a reality since CD sales continue to decline and people are more inclined to purchase individual tracks rather than an entire album. Just concentrate on individual single charts. I think there is where you really measure how successful and how connected you are as an artist with your fans and music listeners in general. Of course, it would put a lot of pressure on that artist to make music that would be heard by the masses.

Billboard has been doing that gradually the last year or so, placing more emphasis on Digital singles than Albums as a whole. Of course there are exceptions like Gaga, Taylor Swift, insert generic rapper name here, and a few other artists that will still have big debut weeks for new albums.

[Don]

The Book Of Mormon cast soundtrack sells 61,000 to reach #3 this week. It debuted a few weeks agoand sold about 4k last week. What happened to propel its sales were two thing. The Tony Awards, where it stole the show with more than half a dozen wins and AMAZON.
Amazon lowered the price of the album to 1.99 for four days. That's another reason why the album charts are becoming fucked up. Wal-Mart underselling other distributors is one thing but when you can start getting records for one or two dollars while other releases are normal price how can your high chart position have any credibility?

And to be clear, this isn't the record labels doing this. Amazon is playing its own pricing game to bolster traffic, much like what Wal-Mart does with its loss leader exclusives.

[Monker]

...and it is NOT what people want after being told repeatedly they were returning to the old sound.

Did they say they were returning to the old sound for "Eclipse"? I don't remember them stating that. Regardless, they returned to it with "Revelation" and, if they want to do something different, it's up to them. They're not bound to do what the fans want. If that means they lose followers, so be it.

Absolutely...I completely agree...

And, the "so be it" happened.

Has the tour been canceled? What has the attendance been like so far, o mighty Kreskin.

There is a difference between touring and recording...especially when most of the songs are going to be OLD.

If they toured with only Eclipse and Revelation songs, yes, the tour would probably be canceled and moved to small th eaters.

[Monker]

No I'm not lying. You just don't want to believe it.

Eclipse is charting higher with lower numbers because fewer albums are being sold by EVERYBODY. That's just the way it is - get over it. In today's world, Arrival would have debuted around the top 5 (40,000 - 50,000) and stuck around the top 20 for weeks (selling around 20,000).

If somebody has the real Arrival numbers for the first two months - post them.

Today is 2011, not 2001. I have no idea what you people are defending. You bring up Arrival's songs and its sales numbers as if it was Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club or something. Very few people knew about the Arrival lineup and even less cared. The band has finally delivered a strong rock album, and you guys want to return to the mythical glory days of obscurity, lipping, suckass ballads, and free county fairs.

This is just simply NOT TRUE. The BTM, the first tours with Augeri (before Arrival) were pretty successful. The DTV concert and 2001 DVD. They even had videos lifted and played on VH1. Plus a couple songs on the radio. So, yes, people knew about Arrival...even if they didn't buy it.

I'm not defending it as the best thing ever...but it definitely deserves more credit then you are giving it.

The point is - they returned to the mythical days of obscurity, with even less fans then before. It doesn't matter how good of an album they release now - that is where they are.

[Monker]

Arrival had sold, up to July 2003 170,000 copies. That's about 5k a month average but we know that it left the chart after only a short time. I would think most of those sales came in the first six months of release with probably 10 to 15 a week for the first couple months or so.

That is closer to what I remember. But, two months in it was closer to 10,000. One month in, it was closer to 20,000...it declined over time, but not dropping off the face of the planet after two weeks.

[Eric]

If they toured with only Eclipse and Revelation songs, yes, the tour would probably be canceled and moved to small theaters.

They need to have the balls to do this. The problem is the perception. Journey can't go play to a 75% capacity 2k theatre without "See..this is where they ended up without Perry". Then that perception becomes reality to promoters. Never mind that 1,500 people would pay $100+ to hear new music.

I still think a couple of appearances and a good long tour will keep sales pecking away, though. Even if they only get to 150,000k - its not shabby in today's market. I mean, they could be REO and not even release new music and need to open for their once peers to tour.

[Greg]

If they toured with only Eclipse and Revelation songs, yes, the tour would probably be canceled and moved to small theaters.

They need to have the balls to do this. The problem is the perception. Journey can't go play to a 75% capacity 2k theatre without "See..this is where they ended up without Perry". Then that perception becomes reality to promoters. Never mind that 1,500 people would pay $100+ to hear new music.

I still think a couple of appearances and a good long tour will keep sales pecking away, though. Even if they only get to 150,000k - its not shabby in today's market. I mean, they could be REO and not even release new music and need to open for their once peers to tour.

This is where I think they should have just renamed the band. I mean, I realize that the band's name is what they're making money off of, but as long as they are "Journey", they are always going to be that band that plays "Don't Stop Believing" and "Open Arms". At least if the band was named something completely different, then they could focus on their own stuff. They could still play a couple of "Journey Classics" in concert, but Neal would have a platform for writing new music and performing new music.

It would be different if Neal Schon was like Tommy Shaw or Steve Lukather in that those guitarists contributed heavily as lead vocalists of their respective bands. At least with Toto, they've had several lead vocalists in their history, but the band (in my opinion anyways) is very much Steve Lukather. As long as he's in the band, it's Toto. Same way with Tommy Shaw, although I do put Dennis DeYoung up there with Steve Perry.

Anyways, that's just my opinion. As long as this band is Journey, they're never going to get away from their back catalog, no matter how good their new stuff may be.

[The_Noble_Cause]

This is just simply NOT TRUE. The BTM, the first tours with Augeri (before Arrival) were pretty successful. The DTV concert and 2001 DVD. They even had videos lifted and played on VH1. Plus a couple songs on the radio. So, yes, people knew about Arrival...even if they didn't buy it.

The 2001 dvd sold on the strength of the dozen, same as Manilla and the Wmart Revelation package. After "Arrival", Sony dumped the band and Cain talked about never doing a full length album again. That's a success in ur eyes? Errmmm...oookay.

I'm not defending it as the best thing ever...but it definitely deserves more credit then you are giving it.

I'm a bigger fan of the SA lineup than this current lineup, but in the mass public's eyes, it was a non-starter. Just the truth.

The point is - they returned to the mythical days of obscurity, with even less fans then before.

I can't see how anyone can make this argument with a straight face. The Glee and Sopranos DSB-revival has put the band back in the zeitgeist and awakened people to the fact that Journey still exists. Compared to their peers (Styx, REO, Foreigner), Journey is doing very well. Your disgruntled contrarian act is beyond stale.

[Eric]

I can't see how anyone can make this argument with a straight face. The Glee and Sopranos DSB-revival has put the band back in the zeitgeist and awakened people to the fact that Journey still exists. Compared to their peers (Styx, REO, Foreigner), Journey is doing very well. Your disgruntled contrarian act is beyond stale.

Yeah....look at REO. REO isn't even at the level to open for Journey at this stage - and they have their original singer. I'm happy where Journey is. New music that I enjoy and respect. Headlining tours. Everyone loves DSB.

I do wish they'd so a small mini-tour for the fans, but that is probably my only gripe.

[Greg]

I can't see how anyone can make this argument with a straight face. The Glee and Sopranos DSB-revival has put the band back in the zeitgeist and awakened people to the fact that Journey still exists. Compared to their peers (Styx, REO, Foreigner), Journey is doing very well. Your disgruntled contrarian act is beyond stale.

Hhmmm... Well, I can't speak for Styx or REO, but Foreigner, I'd have to disagree with. In terms of media exposure, at least, I hear Foreigner's new stuff on radio on a regular basis. Ask me how much of the new Journey I've heard on the radio?

[Eric]

I can't see how anyone can make this argument with a straight face. The Glee and Sopranos DSB-revival has put the band back in the zeitgeist and awakened people to the fact that Journey still exists. Compared to their peers (Styx, REO, Foreigner), Journey is doing very well. Your disgruntled contrarian act is beyond stale.

Hhmmm... Well, I can't speak for Styx or REO, but Foreigner, I'd have to disagree with. In terms of media exposure, at least, I hear Foreigner's new stuff on radio on a regular basis. Ask me how much of the new Journey I've heard on the radio?

I'd say Foreigner's new stuff is out there more than Journey's...but prolly equal to Revelation. Still, Foreigner is opening for Journey, though.

Really dig "When its comes to love".

[The_Noble_Cause]

Hhmmm... Well, I can't speak for Styx or REO, but Foreigner, I'd have to disagree with. In terms of media exposure, at least, I hear Foreigner's new stuff on radio on a regular basis. Ask me how much of the new Journey I've heard on the radio?

I used to hear "After All the Years" on that Delilah show. Have never heard any new Foreigner - or any Eclipse stuff. In terms of buzz, Journey has reaped the whirlwind of the recent DSB boom. The general public knows that Journey is BACK with a Filipino frontman. Nobody cares about the revamped Foreigner lineup (and a great lineup it is).

[Greg]

Hhmmm... Well, I can't speak for Styx or REO, but Foreigner, I'd have to disagree with. In terms of media exposure, at least, I hear Foreigner's new stuff on radio on a regular basis. Ask me how much of the new Journey I've heard on the radio?

I used to hear "After All the Years" on that Delilah show. Have never heard any new Foreigner - or any Eclipse stuff. In terms of buzz, Journey has reaped the whirlwind of the recent DSB boom. The general public knows that Journey is BACK with a Filipino frontman. Nobody cares about the revamped Foreigner lineup (and a great lineup it is).

Honestly, nobody outside the hardcore Journey fans care about this line-up of the band either. Let's be realists about this. How many Pineda Journey songs are being played in movies? TV? Radio? Not saying Foreigner is bigger, but I would say if anything, other than the exposure Journey AND Steve Perry has gotten from the revival of DSB, they're having just as much success as Foreigner. Like I said, I hear new Foreigner on the radio a lot more than new Journey stuff.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Honestly, nobody outside the hardcore Journey fans care about this line-up of the band either. Let's be realists about this. How many Pineda Journey songs are being played in movies? TV? Radio? Not saying Foreigner is bigger, but I would say if anything, other than the exposure Journey AND Steve Perry has gotten from the revival of DSB, they're having just as much success as Foreigner. Like I said, I hear new Foreigner on the radio a lot more than new Journey stuff.

Depends how you quantify success. DSB is the most downloaded song in history. As far as irrelevant dinosaur acts go, Journey almost became hip in the past year. Go figure. The use of DSB on Glee and The Sopranos and The OC def. raised their profile among "the kids". Now, if you're looking exclusively at sales of new material, then yes, they are in the same boat. But I'd argue that Journey is now increasingly known among a younger demographic...does this translate into bigger touring revenues in the US? Time will tell. I say yes.

[jrny84]

what are the sales numbers for this week? Probably around 2,500 sold??

[Don]

what are the sales numbers for this week? Probably around 2,500 sold??

Not that low.

I believe around 7,000 for a total of 38k in three weeks. The album is currently at #68 on Billboard.

If I remember right, Revelation qualified for Gold after its third week of sales. Of course there was RIAA double math but that was still 250,000 real sales.

Now, look at Def Leppard; a three disc package and they couldn't even beat Eclipse's debut numbers. Buying 80s rock ain't as cool as it was three years ago. Concerts are doing well but everyone's already got the greatest hits for these groups so new material doesn't interest them anymore. In Leppard's case, old material sang live isn't a must buy either.

[jrny84]

what are the sales numbers for this week? Probably around 2,500 sold??

Not that low.

I believe around 7,000 for a total of 38k in three weeks. The album is currently at #68 on Billboard.

If I remember right, Revelation qualified for Gold after its third week of sales. Of course there was RIAA double math but that was still 250,000 real sales.

Now, look at Def Leppard; a three disc package and they couldn't even beat Eclipse's debut numbers. Buying 80s rock ain't as cool as it was three years ago. Concerts are doing well but everyone's already got the greatest hits for these groups so new material doesn't interest them anymore. In Leppard's case, old material sang live isn't a must buy either.

Yeah i noticed that. I saw Def Leppard's Mirrorball debuted at #16 on the charts. There was not much if any promotion for that cd either.

[Toph]

What has helped Arrival and Escape, Frontiers, etc. to puff up their numbers late in the retail cycle is the steep discounts that a big label like Sony can offer and being able to get the discounted product from multiple sources.
Best Buy has Arrival for seven bucks and even offers the SACD version for 20 dollars. At Target , the album can be had for 6 dollars and as we have seen at Wal-Mart over the years, the whole Journey back catalog has been marked down to a fiver on certain occasions.
The inhouse releases like Generations and Red 13 can't do that and Wal-Mart doesn't seem too keen to offer steep cuts on its own already bargain priced exclusives either so the chances of seeing Revelation fly under the radar with 500 to 1,000 sales a week years after release seems pretty slim.

Or the fact that ALL those albums had better, more listenable, more broader market songs.....

[Monker]

Anyways, that's just my opinion. As long as this band is Journey, they're never going to get away from their back catalog, no matter how good their new stuff may be.

I think that is absolutely true today. But, it did not have to be that way. If they had not become spineless and started promoting themselves as going back to the old sound, and hanging on to their past success, they could have recorded Eclipse for the Revelation package and promoted as a package of a band that continues to evolve. Now they are stuck without a signifigant audience for their new songs...and they have yet again preached about moving on from the classic stuff. There is nowhere to go.

[jrny84]

Manila DVD continues to climb up the DVD charts:

Top Music DVD's

1 2 5 Live At River Plate AC/DC
2 NEW 1 Let There Be Rock! AC/DC
3 1 2 Water On The Road Eddie Vedder
4 6 12 Les Miserables: 25th Anniversary Concert Various Artists
5 12 31 Eric Clapton Crossroads Guitar Festvival 2010 Various Artists
6 17 51 Live In Manila Journey
7 9 54 360 Degrees At The Rose Bowl U2
8 11 29 Summer In 3D Kenny Chesney
9 7 29 I Am... World Tour Beyonce
10 4 2 A MusiCares Tribute To Neil Young Various Artists

Total sales so far for Live in Manila: 141,086

[Monker]

This is just simply NOT TRUE. The BTM, the first tours with Augeri (before Arrival) were pretty successful. The DTV concert and 2001 DVD. They even had videos lifted and played on VH1. Plus a couple songs on the radio. So, yes, people knew about Arrival...even if they didn't buy it.

The 2001 dvd sold on the strength of the dozen, same as Manilla and the Wmart Revelation package. After "Arrival", Sony dumped the band and Cain talked about never doing a full length album again. That's a success in ur eyes? Errmmm...oookay.

EXACTLY. The 2001 DVD sold - so people KNEW ABOUT ARRIVAL. THAT was my point - you are WRONG in saying nobody knew about Arrival. I said, people knew about it but didn't buy it. I have NOT said it is a successful album.

The point is - they returned to the mythical days of obscurity, with even less fans then before.

I can't see how anyone can make this argument with a straight face. The Glee and Sopranos DSB-revival has put the band back in the zeitgeist and awakened people to the fact that Journey still exists. Compared to their peers (Styx, REO, Foreigner), Journey is doing very well. Your disgruntled contrarian act is beyond stale.[/quote]

That was during Revelation. Now they are back to the days of Arrival and Red 13, except even few people buy their music. THAT was my poing.

Your argument would make sense two years ago - it doesn't any longer because the band switched directions away from their retro sound - and even fewer people bought into it then Arrival.