Song structure

by **Centaure** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:08 pm

I think I found what is the main problem with Eclipse.

It is the song structure. I can understand why some people think that the songs are too long. A few songs could have been shorter or written differently. My point is: why finish the songs with the chorus without any variance in it.

Edge of the moment
Chain Of Love
Resonate

Theses songs are pretty good, but could have been a lot better because the endings truly lacks momentum. Arnel sing the last chorus the exact same way of all the other. It sounds flat and dull. It is like Schon and Cain had no inspiration to write interesting ending like they used to. Listen to Higher Place or Message Of Love, these songs have awesome endings or at least the chorus is done differently, like in Wheel In the Sky.

Longs songs are suppose to have more meat, that is something that Cain and Schon has failed to do. So instead of being killer song with a great build up, most of the songs on Eclipse are good songs but too long for nothing.

Anyway, Journey rocks!

by **slucero** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:19 pm

Actually.. Neal made the conscious decision to not have the songs on Eclipse follow the Journey "formula"... and this is why we got what we get... The songs aren't supposed to be like the typical Journey song... and that (as you've said) is the problem... but it was done intentionally... not on accident.

by **Arkansas** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:30 am

I've wondered if part of the 'concept' of this album is having different angles and entry/departure points. Seems a lot of the songs stop and launch into a different direction. And that's been a constant complaint. But rather than poor song structure, maybe it was purposely meant to be that way. (Maybe it's just ADHD. Ha.)

Because of this, I think it's gonna to take some of us a long time to really digest it all. Unfortunately, most of us will shelve it before we fully get there.

later~

by **The_Noble_Cause** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:36 am

Quite a few progressive change-ups on this album. Easily Journey’s most experimental album since the pre-Perry years. If anything, I wish they went further. Just like another thread inexplicably complaining about a lack of BG vocals, some of these nitpicking gripes are just plain wacko.

by **SF-Dano** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:07 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Quite a few progressive change-ups on this album. Easily Journey’s most experimental album since the pre-Perry years. If anything, I wish they went further. Just like another thread inexplicably complaining about a lack of BG vocals, some of these nitpicking gripes are just plain wacko.

I agree, for my tastes, I wish they went further. Also, I love the ending of EOTM, fits the song perfectly. In fact, the three songs the poster originaly mentioned (Edge of the moment -Chain Of Love-Resonate) are probably my three favorite tracks on the record.

by **NoMoreTails** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:31 am

SF-Dano wrote:
The_Noble_Cause wrote:Quite a few progressive change-ups on this album. Easily Journey’s most experimental album since the pre-Perry years. If anything, I wish they went further. Just like another thread inexplicably complaining about a lack of BG vocals, some of these nitpicking gripes are just plain wacko.

I agree, for my tastes, I wish they went further. Also, I love the ending of EOTM, fits the song perfectly. In fact, the three songs the poster originaly mentioned (Edge of the moment -Chain Of Love-Resonate) are probably my three favorite tracks on the record.

I agree with you both. I don't get why so many supposedly hardcore fans would prefer that they dumb things down..for lack of a better phrase.

by **ForceInfinity** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:08 pm

Centaure wrote:I think I found what is the main problem with Eclipse.

It is the song structure. I can understand why some people think that the songs are too long. A few songs could have been shorter or written differently. My point is: why finish the songs with the chorus without any variance in it.

Edge of the moment
Chain Of Love
Resonate

Theses songs are pretty good, but could have been a lot better because the endings truly lacks momentum. Arnel sing the last chorus the exact same way of all the other. It sounds flat and dull. It is like Schon and Cain had no inspiration to write interesting ending like they used to. Listen to Higher Place or Message Of Love, these songs have awesome endings or at least the chorus is done differently, like in Wheel In the Sky.

Longs songs are suppose to have more meat, that is something that Cain and Schon has failed to do. So instead of being killer song with a great build up, most of the songs on Eclipse are good songs but too long for nothing.

Anyway, Journey rocks!

Good god man, if you think these songs are long, you should listen to some of Dream Theater's music.
Killing Hand, Pull Me Under, Count of Tuscany, Octavarium, Metropolis. Avg song length on this bunch approaches about 12 minutes/song

My only big gripe with the album is Tantra that for whatever reason or another just doesn't get me. I'd also make a couple changes: I'd swap positions on Resonate and Anything is Possible. I'd eliminate Venus, merge it into the tail end of TWIMC and have Someone be the final song.

I personally think these tracks do go somewhere and I enjoy the vibe from the album, as for the choruses, Journey has a history where they don't vary up the choruses that much, or in the case of LTS, they do that Na na na na na. Or when they did vary it up, well don't get me started on the Frontiers title track. That song irritated the daylights out of me

by **Centaure** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:06 am

NoMoreTails wrote:
SF-Dano wrote:
The_Noble_Cause wrote:Quite a few progressive change-ups on this album. Easily Journey’s most experimental album since the pre-Perry years. If anything, I wish they went further. Just like another thread inexplicably complaining about a lack of BG vocals, some of these nitpicking gripes are just plain wacko.

I agree, for my tastes, I wish they went further. Also, I love the ending of EOTM, fits the song perfectly. In fact, the three songs the poster originaly mentioned (Edge of the moment -Chain Of Love-Resonate) are probably my three favorite tracks on the record.

I agree with you both. I don't get why so many supposedly hardcore fans would prefer that they dumb things down..for lack of a better phrase.

Yes that is what I meant : I wish they went further. Don't get me wrong, I love long songs, Dream Theater is one my favorite band, so is Yes, I am a prog fan.

The problem is the songs are hardly prog songs. If that is what they tried here, I think they failed. Long songs don't automatically mean prog-rock! Eclipse is nothing near as prog as the 3 first Journey album. Sometimes it is almost that album, but it lacks meat to be really prog. So, either you write long songs with complex time changes, interesting bridges, great intro/outro, or you write a shorter song with great energy, great memorable chorus/hook, like Journey is known for. I think they tried for both at the same time.

Anyway, without Smith/Dunbar and Rolie in the band, I don't think that this line-up could pull off a great prog-rock album.

by **Centaure** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:41 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote: Easily Journey’s most experimental album since the pre-Perry years. I

No so sure about that. I think Generations and Red 13 are Journey at their most "experimental" (since the pre-perry album).

What is so experimental about Eclipse really ? The only thing that I could think of is the fact that there is no ballad in the style of Open Arms. Ok, maybe the use of acoustic guitar on She's A Mystery.

by **The_Noble_Cause** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:57 am

Centaure wrote:No so sure about that. I think Generations and Red 13 are Journey at their most "experimental" (since the pre-perry album).

Red 13 isn't a full cd and 1/2 of the tracks are from Arrival. That said, SOG, WAFTE, and The Time, much like Eclipse, are a little different from what Journey normally puts out. Aside from changing-up singers, there is nothing experimental about Generations at all. It's a safe and half-assed effort on all fronts.

Centaure wrote:What is so experimental about Eclipse really ? The only thing that I could think of is the fact that there is no ballad in the style of Open Arms.

There's some melody and tempo changes, songs over 4 minutes in length, and songs which aren't poppy and fluffy. Just look at many of the poster comments. Like Red13, it's divided the fans. I agree that it's not progressive.

by **The_Noble_Cause** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:00 pm

Centaure wrote:Anyway, without Smith/Dunbar and Rolie in the band, I don't think that this line-up could pull off a great prog-rock album.

Agreed. If this was Cain's attempt at a full-blown concept record, he failed miserably. Only "Tantra" seems like a piece of some sweeping and epic idea. Everything else rocks a little harder, but is business as usual.

by **Centaure** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:12 pm

The_Noble_Cause wrote:[Aside from changing-up singers, there is nothing experimental about Generations at all. It's a safe and half-assed effort on all fronts.

Well changing-up singer is not little thing ! Listen to Gone Crazy and tell me witch other Journey song it sounds like ?

There a great diversity on Generations. It is a good album, if only the sound was better, it really sinks the greatness of some songs.

The Augeri songs are far from what Journey do usually. Butterfly and Believe do not sound like Journey. Out of Harms Way is probably the hardest rocker they have ever done, but again the sound problem made it sound almost like a lullaby ! haha!

Better Together is another rocker far from the usual Journey sound.

To me Tantra is as experimental as Walking Away From the Edge.
And really what songs on Eclipse have time change ? City of Hope and Ritual, but besides of that ?

by **Rick** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:21 pm

Centaure wrote:
The_Noble_Cause wrote:[Aside from changing-up singers, there is nothing experimental about Generations at all. It's a safe and half-assed effort on all fronts.

Well changing-up singer is not little thing ! Listen to Gone Crazy and tell me witch other Journey song it sounds like ?

There a great diversity on Generations. It is a good album, if only the sound was better, it really sinks the greatness of some songs.

The Augeri songs are far from what Journey do usually. Butterfly and Believe do not sound like Journey. Out of Harms Way is probably the hardest rocker they have ever done, but again the sound problem made it sound almost like a lullaby ! haha!

Better Together is another rocker far from the usual Journey sound.

To me Tantra is as experimental as Walking Away From the Edge.
And really what songs on Eclipse have time change ? City of Hope and Ritual, but besides of that ?

She's a Mystery.

by **The_Noble_Cause** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:33 pm

Centaure wrote:Well changing-up singer is not little thing ! Listen to Gone Crazy and tell me witch other Journey song it sounds like ?

Nearly every song on Gens is a 4-minute pop tune. The Augeri songs don't sound like Journey because they're not Journey. They're Augeri solo tracks and they are simply dreadful. "Gone Crazy", is fun for what it is, but much like the Jamaican-inspired "Baby I'm A Leavin You", its not one of the band's finer moments. I agree that there is diversity, but too much of the album is filler.

by **Centaure** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:37 pm

Ok, She's A Mystery is more a singing outro, more like a song glued with another, but it is probably the first time that they do that since the first 3 albums. So I accept She's A Mystery.

by **Centaure** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:41 pm

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Centaure wrote:Well changing-up singer is not little thing ! Listen to Gone Crazy and tell me witch other Journey song it sounds like ?

Nearly every song on Gens is a 4-minute pop tune. The Augeri songs don't sound like Journey because they're not Journey. They're Augeri solo tracks and they are simply dreadful. "Gone Crazy", is fun for what it is, but much like the Jamaican-inspired "Baby I'm A Leavin You", its not one of the band's finer moments. I agree that there is diversity, but too much of the album is filler.

There are only 3 songs out of 13 that are under 5 minutes ! As for the Augeri songs... well, there are performed by Journey, so I consider them Journey songs. Do you think that Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin', Sweet And Simple and Walks Like Lady are Perry solo tracks ?

by **Rick** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:22 pm

Centaure wrote:Ok, She's A Mystery is more a singing outro, more like a song glued with another, but it is probably the first time that they do that since the first 3 albums. So I accept She's A Mystery.

Don't remember who said it, but someone suggested when the song changes it would have been cool if that were a segue into another song, altogether. I really agree and it would have been the perfect place for that.

by **Andrew** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:34 pm

slucero wrote:Actually.. Neal made the conscious decision to not have the songs on Eclipse follow the Journey "formula"... and this is why we got what we get... The songs aren't supposed to be like the typical Journey song... and that (as you've said) is the problem... but it was done intentionally... not on accident.

And that's what I love about this album. It's not safe or by numbers. It's done by feeling....and the guitars are just perfect.

Website · by **steveo777** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:38 pm

Andrew wrote:
slucero wrote:Actually.. Neal made the conscious decision to not have the songs on Eclipse follow the Journey "formula"... and this is why we got what we get... The songs aren't supposed to be like the typical Journey song... and that (as you've said) is the problem... but it was done intentionally... not on accident.

And that's what I love about this album. It's not safe or by numbers. It's done by feeling....and the guitars are just perfect.

Only the astute of mind will get this album. It's just too deep for the commoner, lard tub, grey haired and harried Journey fan of yesteryear. :wink:

by **Centaure** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:03 pm

Arnel really lacks feelings in his interpretations on Eclipse, the technique is there, but not the feelings.

By the way, I know that I have been very critic about Eclipse, but I do like the album. I just think that it could have been much better. There are a lot small details that just frustrates me.

by **slucero** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:22 pm

Andrew wrote:
slucero wrote:Actually.. Neal made the conscious decision to not have the songs on Eclipse follow the Journey "formula"... and this is why we got what we get... The songs aren't supposed to be like the typical Journey song... and that (as you've said) is the problem... but it was done intentionally... not on accident.

And that's what I love about this album. It's not safe or by numbers. It's done by feeling....and the guitars are just perfect.

funny... "feeling" is one think I don't hear on Eclipse... it sounds clinical and sterile to me..

I'm glad its "perfect" for you... for others (apparently the majority) it's not so perfect...

by **Monker** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:54 pm

Andrew wrote:
slucero wrote:Actually.. Neal made the conscious decision to not have the songs on Eclipse follow the Journey "formula"... and this is why we got what we get... The songs aren't supposed to be like the typical Journey song... and that (as you've said) is the problem... but it was done intentionally... not on accident.

And that's what I love about this album. It's not safe or by numbers. It's done by feeling....and the guitars are just perfect.

I think there are some songs done with 'feeling'. But, at least half, I don't feel they felt anything but "let's do a song about this topic..." and that's about it. The guitars are great in some places but are overwhelming in others. Like I said elsewhere, if Neal can't perform the guitar bits in concert himself, then there are too much. So, this album is far from perfect to me.

Website · by **steveo777** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:02 pm

Monker wrote:
Andrew wrote:
slucero wrote:Actually.. Neal made the conscious decision to not have the songs on Eclipse follow the Journey "formula"... and this is why we got what we get... The songs aren't supposed to be like the typical Journey song... and that (as you've said) is the problem... but it was done intentionally... not on accident.

And that's what I love about this album. It's not safe or by numbers. It's done by feeling....and the guitars are just perfect.

I think there are some songs done with 'feeling'. But, at least half, I don't feel they felt anything but "let's do a song about this topic..." and that's about it. The guitars are great in some places but are overwhelming in others. Like I said elsewhere, if Neal can't perform the guitar bits in concert himself, then there are too much. So, this album is far from perfect to me.

Jeff Beck has overwhelming guitars too, if you're not a fan of in your face guitars. I happen to appreciate this.

by **Andrew** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:22 pm

slucero wrote:
I'm glad its "perfect" for you... for others (apparently the majority) it's not so perfect...

I conceed there are many that don't get it, but looking far and wide for comments and reviews of the album, I think the majority is FOR it.

by **Andrew** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:22 pm

Monker wrote:
Andrew wrote:
slucero wrote:Actually.. Neal made the conscious decision to not have the songs on Eclipse follow the Journey "formula"... and this is why we got what we get... The songs aren't supposed to be like the typical Journey song... and that (as you've said) is the problem... but it was done intentionally... not on accident.

And that's what I love about this album. It's not safe or by numbers. It's done by feeling....and the guitars are just perfect.

I think there are some songs done with 'feeling'. But, at least half, I don't feel they felt anything but "let's do a song about this topic..." and that's about it. The guitars are great in some places but are overwhelming in others. Like I said elsewhere, if Neal can't perform the guitar bits in concert himself, then there are too much. So, this album is far from perfect to me.

Understood.

by **Argus** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:23 pm

steveo777 wrote:
Monker wrote:
Andrew wrote:
slucero wrote:Actually.. Neal made the conscious decision to not have the songs on Eclipse follow the Journey "formula"... and this is why we got what we get... The songs aren't supposed to be like the typical Journey song... and that (as you've said) is the problem... but it was done intentionally... not on accident.

And that's what I love about this album. It's not safe or by numbers. It's done by feeling....and the guitars are just perfect.

I think there are some songs done with 'feeling'. But, at least half, I don't feel they felt anything but "let's do a song about this topic..." and that's about it. The guitars are great in some places but are overwhelming in others. Like I said elsewhere, if Neal can't perform the guitar bits in concert himself, then there are too much. So, this album is far from perfect to me.

Jeff Beck has overwhelming guitars too, if you're not a fan of in your face guitars. I happen to appreciate this.

Beck does not typically work with singers :wink:

love his stuff~ :!:

by **The_Noble_Cause** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:04 am

Centaure wrote:There are only 3 songs out of 13 that are under 5 minutes ! As for the Augeri songs... well, there are performed by Journey, so I consider them Journey songs. Do you think that Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin', Sweet And Simple and Walks Like Lady are Perry solo tracks ?

Hey man, if you think "Generations" (or worse, "Butterfly" and "Believe") represent the band at the top of the game, more power to ya. Some arguments are self-explanatory and simply aren't worth the time. :roll:

by **koberry** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:46 am

NoMoreTails wrote:
SF-Dano wrote:
The_Noble_Cause wrote:Quite a few progressive change-ups on this album. Easily Journey’s most experimental album since the pre-Perry years. If anything, I wish they went further. Just like another thread inexplicably complaining about a lack of BG vocals, some of these nitpicking gripes are just plain wacko.

I agree, for my tastes, I wish they went further. Also, I love the ending of EOTM, fits the song perfectly. In fact, the three songs the poster originaly mentioned (Edge of the moment -Chain Of Love-Resonate) are probably my three favorite tracks on the record.

I agree with you both. I don't get why so many supposedly hardcore fans would prefer that they dumb things down..for lack of a better phrase.

+1

by **Centaure** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:49 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Centaure wrote:There are only 3 songs out of 13 that are under 5 minutes ! As for the Augeri songs... well, there are performed by Journey, so I consider them Journey songs. Do you think that Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin', Sweet And Simple and Walks Like Lady are Perry solo tracks ?

Hey man, if you think "Generations" (or worse, "Butterfly" and "Believe") represent the band at the top of the game, more power to ya. Some arguments are self-explanatory and simply aren't worth the time.

1- Keep your facts straight.

2- The point was that Generations is a more different and diverse Journey than most of the songs on Eclipse.

by **Monker** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:59 am

steveo777 wrote:
Monker wrote:
Andrew wrote:
slucero wrote:Actually.. Neal made the conscious decision to not have the songs on Eclipse follow the Journey "formula"... and this is why we got what we get... The songs aren't supposed to be like the typical Journey song... and that (as you've said) is the problem... but it was done intentionally... not on accident.

And that's what I love about this album. It's not safe or by numbers. It's done by feeling....and the guitars are just perfect.

I think there are some songs done with 'feeling'. But, at least half, I don't feel they felt anything but "let's do a song about this topic..." and that's about it. The guitars are great in some places but are overwhelming in others. Like I said elsewhere, if Neal can't perform the guitar bits in concert himself, then there are too much. So, this album is far from perfect to me.

Jeff Beck has overwhelming guitars too, if you're not a fan of in your face guitars. I happen to appreciate this.

Jeff Beck isn't in Journey. Journey isn't a band like Def Leppard having two guitarists...and they should be above pretending to need to have Neal record at least two guitar lines. Is he not confident enough in his ability to entertain so he needs to have two of himself on the songs? To me it sounds very odd, for Journey.

MR

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