Tantra v Butterfly

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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:01 am

conversationpc wrote:"Butterfly" isn't a favorite at all but, sorry, it's better than "Tantra", in my opinion, in almost every way.


"Tantra" is one of Journey's most melodic and sweeping songs in years. Great melding of the Cain and Schon sensibilities. "Butterfly" is just cliched crap.
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Postby scarab » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:11 am

butterfly and the other Augeri penned song on Gen are just horrendous.
And after a couple listens Tantra just goes nowhere, its WAY to over the top melodrama, and one of the most non Journey song they have ever done (cept DaD sountrack stuff) Take that song out of there, put in 1 traditional ballad and siwtch CoH with EotM, make Venus a hidden song and youve got a decent record.
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Postby Onestepper » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:19 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
conversationpc wrote:"Butterfly" isn't a favorite at all but, sorry, it's better than "Tantra", in my opinion, in almost every way.


"Tantra" is one of Journey's most melodic and sweeping songs in years. Great melding of the Cain and Schon sensibilities. "Butterfly" is just cliched crap.


Tantra to me is one big cliche. I actually think the song could have been something special had they reined in the melodrama.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:30 am

Onestepper wrote:Tantra to me is one big cliche. I actually think the song could have been something special had they reined in the melodrama.


You could make the argument that the entire AOR genre is one big lighter-waving cliche. At least Cain attempted to write something out of his comfort zone. And Arnel and Neal simply just soar on this track. The intertwining of guitar and vox is reminiscent of the earliest and best Perry/Schon collaborations. "Butterfly" has very few redeeming qualities.
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Postby SF-Dano » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:35 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Onestepper wrote:Tantra to me is one big cliche. I actually think the song could have been something special had they reined in the melodrama.


You could make the argument that the entire AOR genre is one big lighter-waving cliche. At least Cain attempted to write something out of his comfort zone. And Arnel and Neal simply just soar on this track. The intertwining of guitar and vox is reminiscent of the earliest and best Perry/Schon collaborations. "Butterfly" has very few redeeming qualities.


Exactly.
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Postby Onestepper » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:51 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Onestepper wrote:Tantra to me is one big cliche. I actually think the song could have been something special had they reined in the melodrama.


You could make the argument that the entire AOR genre is one big lighter-waving cliche. At least Cain attempted to write something out of his comfort zone. And Arnel and Neal just soar on this track, its reminiscent of the earliest and best Perry/Schon collaborations. "Butterfly" has very few redeeming qualities.


Well I'll give you that, Butterfly isn't worth anything to me as well. And I actually do give them credit for not putting out the same ole same ole. And I do think there is some strong material on the album, just not Tantra.

I remember reading when Frontiers was released that they said the second half of the album for the band, not so much the fans. That's kind of how I look at Eclipse as a whole.
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Postby Glenn » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:35 am

Andrew wrote:No contest. Tantra by seven zillion miles.


+ seven zillion
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Postby youkeepmewaiting » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:47 am

Tantra is one of my favourite Journey songs ever now. Probably in top ten. That has never happened with ANYTHING post-Perry. There has been many songs that I think are brilliant (Remember Me probably being one of the best ever which they really should play) but nothing - for me - hits it like Tantra does. I was floored when I first heard it. I like Eclispe a lot but I know a lot of the songs will not be played as much come next year but Tantra will forever be on my MP3 player
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Postby Escape Artist » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:23 am

Tantra, yes it is a different direction for Journey, but that is a good thing IMO.
I skipped over Butterfly every time I listened to Generations.
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Postby StringsOfJoy » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:44 am

Onestepper wrote:
The_Noble_Cause wrote:
conversationpc wrote:"Butterfly" isn't a favorite at all but, sorry, it's better than "Tantra", in my opinion, in almost every way.


"Tantra" is one of Journey's most melodic and sweeping songs in years. Great melding of the Cain and Schon sensibilities. "Butterfly" is just cliched crap.


Tantra to me is one big cliche. I actually think the song could have been something special had they reined in the melodrama.


Agreed...and sounded too Broadway, and not in a good Broadway kind of way...

I was never a fan of Butterfly either.

Both songs are listenable -- I don't think they are "crap" -- and I also give props to the attempt at something different, but I don't really hear anything exciting in either and I think the execution falls short.
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Postby jestor92 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:35 am

Butterfly is IMO one of the worst songs the band has ever released.
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Postby Gideon » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:41 am

Tantra, much more lyrically mature and better performed.
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Postby Jana » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:57 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
conversationpc wrote:"Butterfly" isn't a favorite at all but, sorry, it's better than "Tantra", in my opinion, in almost every way.


"Tantra" is one of Journey's most melodic and sweeping songs in years. Great melding of the Cain and Schon sensibilities. "Butterfly" is just cliched crap.


Amen. In my car I've never gotten to the end of Butterfly. Almost six minutes, and it's three minutes too long. It drags on and on. I am a big fan of Augeri's style and so not biased. Tantra I could listen to twice in a row. Love it.
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Postby koberry » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:09 am

strangegrey wrote:I've actually come around on tantra....and greatly prefer it to almost everything on the record...when I listen to eclipse, I start at track 4 and go through to 7 and then skip to 11

The rest of the record is elephant dung


<gasp!> - no Edge of the Moment?! Have you gone MAD!?!?
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Postby koberry » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:15 am

Don wrote:I don't see any similarities between the two songs. I find Butterfly closer to She's A Mystery if anything.

Tantra is an album killer. If you're going to do a ballad, do it right or don't do one at all. That Rodgers & Hammerstein shtick adds major damage points to an otherwise decent record.


But, but, but, but... just 'cuz it's not Faithfully, doesn't mean there's no place for it. Reading the interview you posted today w/ Neal, he cast it as 'bombastic'. So it's not like it's theatrical and the band doesn't know it. They get that it's over the top... can't we appreciate it in that light? Well, for one, I am. The issues Arkansas noted, notwithstanding.
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Postby Glenn » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:32 am

jestor92 wrote:Butterfly is IMO one of the worst songs the band has ever released.



I'd agree, but then I hear "Knowing That You Love Me" and realize that there's at least one song Butterfly is better than.



I still laugh when Deen, shortly before the release of Generations, proclaimed that KTYLM was the new Open Arms. He really did say that. :lol: :lol:
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Postby Jana » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:54 am

koberry wrote:
strangegrey wrote:I've actually come around on tantra....and greatly prefer it to almost everything on the record...when I listen to eclipse, I start at track 4 and go through to 7 and then skip to 11

The rest of the record is elephant dung


<gasp!> - no Edge of the Moment?! Have you gone MAD!?!?


LOL I know. Tracks two through seven for me is perfection.
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Postby Gideon » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:56 am

Jana wrote:LOL I know. Tracks two through seven for me is perfection.


I suppose my musical standards are entirely too high. Perfect songs are very rare from me. In fact, I'm almost thinking of deducting my much beloved 'Resonate' a few points for the needlessly long intro. Cut 20-25 seconds off of it and it would be better.
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Postby Jana » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:10 am

Gideon wrote:
Jana wrote:LOL I know. Tracks two through seven for me is perfection.


I suppose my musical standards are entirely too high. Perfect songs are very rare from me. In fact, I'm almost thinking of deducting my much beloved 'Resonate' a few points for the needlessly long intro. Cut 20-25 seconds off of it and it would be better.


What? I love love the intro of Resonate. When I say perfection, I was being too dramatic, I guess. LOL What I meant was I really love that nucleus of songs and love the placement of the songs. My favs on the album.
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Postby koberry » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:21 am

Gideon wrote:
Jana wrote:LOL I know. Tracks two through seven for me is perfection.


I suppose my musical standards are entirely too high. Perfect songs are very rare from me. In fact, I'm almost thinking of deducting my much beloved 'Resonate' a few points for the needlessly long intro. Cut 20-25 seconds off of it and it would be better.


No, no... just pretend the 'needlessly long intro' is really a part of the outro to AIP :lol:
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Postby steveo777 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:32 am

koberry wrote:
Gideon wrote:
Jana wrote:LOL I know. Tracks two through seven for me is perfection.


I suppose my musical standards are entirely too high. Perfect songs are very rare from me. In fact, I'm almost thinking of deducting my much beloved 'Resonate' a few points for the needlessly long intro. Cut 20-25 seconds off of it and it would be better.


No, no... just pretend the 'needlessly long intro' is really a part of the outro to AIP :lol:


I like the outro to AIP. :D
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Postby scarab » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:09 am

intro to Resonate, and outro to AIP equally great,
now going from the mellowist acoustic song to a full on hard rocker is just weird in the Mystery song.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:31 pm

Glenn wrote:
jestor92 wrote:Butterfly is IMO one of the worst songs the band has ever released.


I'd agree, but then I hear "Knowing That You Love Me" and realize that there's at least one song Butterfly is better than.

I still laugh when Deen, shortly before the release of Generations, proclaimed that KTYLM was the new Open Arms. He really did say that. :lol: :lol:


I'd easily take KTYLM over Butterfly. KTYLM is standard-issue Cain cheese. Maybe a little too Boyz2Men in parts, but I fail to see what sets it apart from "All the Way" or "After All These Years" or "With Your Love" or any other modern Journey gay ballad.
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Postby Glenn » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:30 pm

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Glenn wrote:
jestor92 wrote:Butterfly is IMO one of the worst songs the band has ever released.


I'd agree, but then I hear "Knowing That You Love Me" and realize that there's at least one song Butterfly is better than.

I still laugh when Deen, shortly before the release of Generations, proclaimed that KTYLM was the new Open Arms. He really did say that. :lol: :lol:


I'd easily take KTYLM over Butterfly. KTYLM is standard-issue Cain cheese. Maybe a little too Boyz2Men in parts, but I fail to see what sets it apart from "All the Way" or "After All These Years" or "With Your Love" or any other modern Journey gay ballad.


All The Way is another one...Shit like this really makes me miss Rolie
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Postby Greg » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:03 pm

tanga wrote:People hating Tantra just don't have a fuckin clue about music in general...


Bullshit statement! :roll:

Both Tantra and Butterfly make me want to puke.
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Postby Gideon » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:05 pm

Greg wrote:
tanga wrote:People hating Tantra just don't have a fuckin clue about music in general...


Bullshit statement! :roll:

Both Tantra and Butterfly make me want to puke.


I didn't really appreciate Tantra beyond its lyrics until just recently; Butterfly has no such redeeming qualities for me, but it's certainly not the worst Journey song ever in my book. Competing for that title is 'Baby I'm A Leavin' You' and 'Homemade Love'.
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Postby youkeepmewaiting » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:23 am

Baby I'm Leavin You is such a fun song. People take it too serisouly, it was a secret track for a reason
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Postby Greg » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:31 am

youkeepmewaiting wrote:Baby I'm Leavin You is such a fun song. People take it too serisouly, it was a secret track for a reason


Agreed. I don't even really consider it a song, but more or less, just the guys having fun. I kind of put this song on the same shelf as Love For Sale from Bon Jovi.
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Postby Michigan Girl » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:35 am

Greg wrote:
youkeepmewaiting wrote:Baby I'm Leavin You is such a fun song. People take it too serisouly, it was a secret track for a reason


Agreed. I don't even really consider it a song, but more or less, just the guys having fun. I kind of put this song on the same shelf as Love For Sale from Bon Jovi.


I've always been on record as loving this song ...as a matter of fact, I have to get a new cd
because I have worn that song out while rolling down I~49 headed south, so N'awlins :wink:
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:40 am

Greg wrote:
youkeepmewaiting wrote:Baby I'm Leavin You is such a fun song. People take it too serisouly, it was a secret track for a reason


Agreed. I don't even really consider it a song, but more or less, just the guys having fun. I kind of put this song on the same shelf as Love For Sale from Bon Jovi.


Like "Gone Crazy", BIALY is a fun little throwaway track. Nothing more. Neither tracks take themselves seriously. "Butterfly", on the other hand, sounds like a public service message on domestic violence set to music. Self-serious, not particularly catchy, and a real album buzzkill.
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