The time has come to fire Francona

[Saint John]

Cherry Picker! How about quoting the rest of the statement.

I posted the damn link and tried to show you some courtesy and hide your ignorance of the game. But thanks for dredging up yet another moronic statement that you've made! Fuck it. No coaches ... just let the players decide who goes where and when. Hell, for someone that thinks the game isn't really dependent on good managing, you sure like to second guess and whine all of the time! Seems to me that you're logically arguing that you shouldn't be bitching about managerial moves if they amount to nothing more than knowing when to pull a pitcher. Again, people close to the game would have a field day laughing at you!

PS As for the Dave Roberts stolen base, my guess is that 95% of managers would have bunted him over and probably lost the game and the series.

[jestor92]

I don't know why you people are getting mad seeing the Sox lose to the Phils. If anything you should be panicking because they lost the series to the Pirates.


Let's Go Bucs!

[RedWingFan]

I never said he was the best manager last year...I challenge YOU to find where I said that.

Just like debating you in baseball, this is way too easy:

"Francona deserved the MLB COY last year but didn't get it ... "

http://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/vie ... 06#4552306

Cherry Picker! How about quoting the rest of the statement.

Again, I don't quite buy that coaching has ANYTHING to do with wins in baseball. Other than knowing/not knowing when to pull a pitcher

I didn't think he really deserved the COY, I just thought that using the criteria that the league usually uses to determine COY - Francona should have gotten it. But I truly didn't care one way or another.

You didn't think he deserved it, you just stated that he deserved it? Saint John met your challenge and really made you look like an ass in this thread. Nice job Dan.

[RedWingFan]

Cherry Picker! How about quoting the rest of the statement.

I posted the damn link and tried to show you some courtesy and hide your ignorance of the game. But thanks for dredging up yet another moronic statement that you've made! Fuck it. No coaches ... just let the players decide who goes where and when. Hell, for someone that thinks the game isn't really dependent on good managing, you sure like to second guess and whine all of the time! Seems to me that you're logically arguing that you shouldn't be bitching about managerial moves if they amount to nothing more than knowing when to pull a pitcher. Again, people close to the game would have a field day laughing at you!

PS As for the Dave Roberts stolen base, my guess is that 95% of managers would have bunted him over and probably lost the game and the series.

Yeah, really does the batting order really matter? Why not let your power hitter in the lead-off spot and your speedster hitting clean-up? Doesn't really matter.

From this quote below. If the only thing that matters is pitching, then they must have missed "close to 900 missed man games" from the pitching staff alone right?

Sounds like you really thought he should have won COY but denied it in this thread to cover your ass...til Dan re-exposed it.

What I said, smeg breath, is that no one would argue that Francona didn't do more with less last year. You still don't get the concept of close to 900 missed man games, do you? That would be like the Yankees missing Jeter, Texeira, Cano, Garnderson, and Posada for most of the year - but still winning 89 games. Cito Gaston hasn't been relevant since the days of Juan Guzman. Growing up, the TWO pitchers the Sox could never seem to beat were Guzman, and Dave Stewart....

[S2M]

Cherry Picker! How about quoting the rest of the statement.

I posted the damn link and tried to show you some courtesy and hide your ignorance of the game. But thanks for dredging up yet another moronic statement that you've made! Fuck it. No coaches ... just let the players decide who goes where and when. Hell, for someone that thinks the game isn't really dependent on good managing, you sure like to second guess and whine all of the time! Seems to me that you're logically arguing that you shouldn't be bitching about managerial moves if they amount to nothing more than knowing when to pull a pitcher. Again, people close to the game would have a field day laughing at you!

PS As for the Dave Roberts stolen base, my guess is that 95% of managers would have bunted him over and probably lost the game and the series.

You don't waste an AB moving a base stealer over. You bunt over a so-so runner. And while we're talking about it - There is no such thing as a Hit and Run...Wouldn't it be a Run and Hit?

[Saint John]

You don't waste an AB moving a base stealer over.

Again, you don't know the game. Unless you have a certain stolen base, you do bunt the runner over. The thinking is that you then need one hit out of one of the next two batters, rather than 2 hits (barring a HR) out of the next 3 batters. People sacrifice bunt all the time, and rightly so.

[S2M]

You don't waste an AB moving a base stealer over.

Again, you don't know the game. Unless you have a certain stolen base, you do bunt the runner over. The thinking is that you then need one hit out of one of the next two batters, rather than 2 hits (barring a HR) out of the next 3 batters. People sacrifice bunt all the time, and rightly so.

Did you even read my post? If you allow the base runner to steal the base EARLY in the count - you now have THREE chances to score the run. And *I* don't know the game?

You bunt over Ortiz, Tek, Gonzo, or Scutaro....you allow Pedroia, Ellsbury, Crawford, Lowrie, or Reddick a chance to at least try and steal the base...

[Saint John]

Did you even read my post?

Yes, I did. I would bet my life that had Roberts been thrown out you would have been calling for Francona's head. It's just the way you are. But you wanna dismiss the magnitude of that move and the balls it took to send Roberts.

If you allow the base runner to steal the base EARLY in the count - you now have THREE chances to score the run.

Totally assumptive. You could also have 1 out and nobody on ... which was almost the case.

And *I* don't know the game?

I would say slightly more than the average Joe. But you complain much more and purport to know a lot. But you don't.

You bunt over Ortiz, Tek, Gonzo, or Scutaro....you allow Pedroia, Ellsbury, Crawford, Lowrie, or Reddick a chance to at least try and steal the base...

I don't disagree with the first part, but most managers would bunt the latter runners over and give their team 2 chances to score on a base hit rather than chance having the runner thrown out. Again, you would have been the first person calling for his head had Roberts been thrown out. But, now, you minimize it because you know what happened. Basically, Francona can't win with you. But he has a major league gig and 2 rings. What are your baseball credentials?

[S2M]

Did you even read my post?

Yes, I did. I would bet my life that had Roberts been thrown out you would have been calling for Francona's head. It's just the way you are. But you wanna dismiss the magnitude of that move and the balls it took to send Roberts.

If you allow the base runner to steal the base EARLY in the count - you now have THREE chances to score the run.

Totally assumptive. You could also have 1 out and nobody on ... which was almost the case.

And *I* don't know the game?

I would say slightly more than the average Joe. But you complain much more and purport to know a lot. But you don't.

You bunt over Ortiz, Tek, Gonzo, or Scutaro....you allow Pedroia, Ellsbury, Crawford, Lowrie, or Reddick a chance to at least try and steal the base...

I don't disagree with the first part, but most managers would bunt the latter runners over and give their team 2 chances to score on a base hit rather than chance having the runner thrown out. Again, you would have been the first person calling for his head had Roberts been thrown out. But, now, you minimize it because you know what happened. Basically, Francona can't win with you. But he has a major league gig and 2 rings. What are your baseball credentials?

Based on my luck with women, not much...I always start up in the count 2 balls, no strikes....a slider, and 2 backdoor curves later.....I'm getting the Tom Hallion hook

[S2M]

Best soundbyte, and nickname ever.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPvMOVFshyI

[Saint John]

Based on my luck with women, not much...I always start up in the count 2 balls, no strikes....a slider, and 2 backdoor curves later.....I'm getting the Tom Hallion hook

lol ... reminds me of an old teammate in college that used to yell at our pitcher when the count on an opposing hitter was 0-2. "Hey, just so you know, he's got 2 strikes and NO BALLS!" The hitter would get incensed and usually swing at a breaking ball in the dirt for strike 3. Needless to say, Rob Griffiths, my teammate, was a hated man by our opponents.

[Rockindeano]

S2M is clueless. I read this thread in disbelief at his thoughts. There's a reason Francona is a big league manager and a very good one at that.

[S2M]

S2M is clueless. I read this thread in disbelief at his thoughts. There's a reason Francona is a big league manager and a very good one at that.

Rather tame for you, Dean....have you decided to treat me with a modicum of respect now?

BTW, I have been perusing the Amtrak website...would appreciate some of your thoughts on traveling by them at some point....

[Enigma869]

But when facing upper echelon pitchers(Lee, Halladay, Verlander, C.C., Lincecum) he tends to shit a brick.

Right...and every other manager in MLB has his lineup teeing off on the guys you just mentioned. More idiocy from so-called Red Sox fans. I've been a die-hard Red Sox fan as long as I can remember being alive, and the comments I see so-called Red Sox fans make make me wonder if they've ever watched a baseball game. The truth of the matter is that if the Red Sox get Buchholz back healthy and producing, they are an AL World Series favorite with the lineup they have. That said, the Phillies absolutely MUST be the favorite to win it all, if for no other reason than the fact that they can run out Lee, Halladay, and Hamels. No team is touching that pitching trio. No awards or championship rings are being handed out in July. Kirk Gibson won the 1988 NL MVP and didn't even make the All-Star Team at the mid-season point! The season is 162 games for a reason.

[conversationpc]

That said, the Phillies absolutely MUST be the favorite to win it all, if for no other reason than the fact that they can run out Lee, Halladay, and Hamels. No team is touching that pitching trio.

The Sox aren't far behind that with Beckett, Lester, and Buchholz all pitching at their best.

[S2M]

But when facing upper echelon pitchers(Lee, Halladay, Verlander, C.C., Lincecum) he tends to shit a brick.

Right...and every other manager in MLB has his lineup teeing off on the guys you just mentioned. More idiocy from so-called Red Sox fans. I've been a die-hard Red Sox fan as long as I can remember being alive, and the comments I see so-called Red Sox fans make make me wonder if they've ever watched a baseball game. The truth of the matter is that if the Red Sox get Buchholz back healthy and producing, they are an AL World Series favorite with the lineup they have. That said, the Phillies absolutely MUST be the favorite to win it all, if for no other reason than the fact that they can run out Lee, Halladay, and Hamels. No team is touching that pitching trio. No awards or championship rings are being handed out in July. Kirk Gibson won the 1988 NL MVP and didn't even make the All-Star Team at the mid-season point! The season is 162 games for a reason.

At full strength, and with the right lineup....maybe. With Drew looking at 3 down main street. McD striking out more than Everett at band camp, and Tito trotting out Shalackey and Wake every fifth day....this team will be lucky to get to the ALCS. I've been a fan for as long as *I* can remember as well...I can remember back as far as '75. When I see Drew, Darnell, and Scutaro in the lineup - I know it'll be a long day. Darnell is batting .132 against lefties. Reddick is batting .778 against them. Guess who Tito started against Happ on Sat.? Ortiz and McDonald. As far as your 162 game argument - if you win 'em early....you don't need 'em late. Win 'em when the arms are relatively fresh. Players need to start wising up. You got opponents on the hill with WHIPs at 1.56 - and you have dudes swinging at first pitches, hitting into the most DPs this side of Jim Ed. Dudes laying off fastballs right down the pipe, yet screwing themselves into the ground at changeups an inch from their grills...

[Enigma869]

The Sox aren't far behind that with Beckett, Lester, and Buchholz all pitching at their best.

Sorry dude, but the Sox top three pitchers aren't close to Lee, Halladay, and Hamels. The reality is that prior to this season, Beckett has been a below average pitcher and has really only had one good season with the Red Sox. He has been outstanding this season but his track record hasn't exactly been that of Halladay or Lee. Buchholz is nothing more than a good, young arm, and has proven absolutely NOTHING on the major league level! I've always believed Lester to be a stud, but in spite of his impressive win/loss record, he has been very inconsistent this season. Halladay and Lee are two of the best pitchers in all of baseball and one of them will probably win the Cy Young Award, and the one who doesn't win will probably finish second! Again, I'm a Red Sox fan, but I also look at things objectively, and these two staffs simply aren't comparable in my opinion. That said, I do think the Red Sox have far better hitters, but it always comes down to pitching in October.

[Enigma869]

Tito trotting out Shalackey and Wake every fifth day....this team will be lucky to get to the ALCS.

Sorry dude, but your Lackey argument is misguided. I said at the time of the signing that it was an awful signing by THEO! I promise you that with the Red Sox paying this jackass 14 mil per season, that he isn't not going to take the ball every fifth day. I've never defended Lackey and wasn't a fan of the Sox signing him, AT ALL. He's simply not a Boston kind of a guy, and the fans in this city will destroy that guy for stealing money. Not sure how you turn Francona into the fall guy for an awful signing by the front office. Theo is an average GM who gets a whole lot of credit because the Red Sox can afford some of the lousy contracts he hands out. The truth of the matter is that if Theo were the GM in a place like Kansas City, signing stiffs like Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria, John Lackey, et. al would set the franchise back decades. He's lucky the ownership of the Red Sox has very deep pockets!

[S2M]

Halladay and Lee are currently playing in the comfy confines of the JV league. Where offense is substandard, and pitchers hit. Wiining the All-Star game is tantamount now for the AL. 4 games with NL rules will be devastating.

[Enigma869]

Halladay and Lee are currently playing in the comfy confines of the JV league. Where offense is substandard, and pitchers hit. Wiining the All-Star game is tantamount now for the AL. 4 games with NL rules will be devastating.

These are the comments that make you sound like a complete jackass! Last I checked, Halladay was every bit as good for the 11 years he pitched in Toronto, in the same division as the Red Sox and Yankees. He also won a Cy Young Award in the AL, so I'm quite sure that his immense talent isn't just the fluke you seem to think it is! Between Lee and Halladay, they have spent 19 seasons in the AL and only one full season each in the NL. Between them, they have 2 AL Cy Youngs and 1 NL Cy Young! Check your facts before making moronic statements!

[S2M]

Tito trotting out Shalackey and Wake every fifth day....this team will be lucky to get to the ALCS.

Sorry dude, but your Lackey argument is misguided. I said at the time of the signing that it was an awful signing by THEO! I promise you that with the Red Sox paying this jackass 14 mil per season, that he isn't not going to take the ball every fifth day. I've never defended Lackey and wasn't a fan of the Sox signing him, AT ALL. He's simply not a Boston kind of a guy, and the fans in this city will destroy that guy for stealing money. Not sure how you turn Francona into the fall guy for an awful signing by the front office. Theo is an average GM who gets a whole lot of credit because the Red Sox can afford some of the lousy contracts he hands out. The truth of the matter is that if Theo were the GM in a place like Kansas City, signing stiffs like Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria, John Lackey, et. al would set the franchise back decades. He's lucky the ownership of the Red Sox has very deep pockets!

Not misguided at all. Just because you have to pay him, doesn't mean he has to play. So Boston deserves the double-whammy of paying 2 guys 14mil+, PLUS getting piss-poor performance out of them? I'm counting down the days until JD Druseless is sent packing...I've seen more emotion out of Steven Wright. It's a funny thing. Renteria was a great player in St' Louis. Made the AS team in 04. Missed it in 05(Bos), but made it the following year in Cincy. Made it both times in the NL, but not in the AL. Hmmm....Theo makes very odd moves. Tavares? Gagne? Letting Gonzo(ss) go?

[S2M]

Halladay and Lee are currently playing in the comfy confines of the JV league. Where offense is substandard, and pitchers hit. Wiining the All-Star game is tantamount now for the AL. 4 games with NL rules will be devastating.

These are the comments that make you sound like a complete jackass! Last I checked, Halladay was every bit as good for the 11 years he pitched in Toronto, in the same division as the Red Sox and Yankees. He also won a Cy Young Award in the AL, so I'm quite sure that his immense talent isn't just the fluke you seem to think it is! Between Lee and Halladay, they have spent 19 seasons in the AL and only one full season each in the NL. Between them, they have 2 AL Cy Youngs and 1 NL Cy Young! Check your facts before making moronic statements!

3 Cy Youngs in 19 years is something to brag about? If they started their careers in the NL, they'd both have 5 or 6. I'm not saying they aren't great pitchers, but they aren't unbeatable. And they aren't anywhere close to Randy Johnson, or Pedro Martinez,who should have had 8

[Enigma869]

3 Cy Youngs in 19 years is something to brag about?

I never claimed it was, but it's still a whole lot more than most guys win, which is zero. My larger point was that you're arguing the point that these guys are only good pitchers because they pitch in the NL, while completely ignoring the fact that both guys have pitched (and quite effectively) in the AL for 98% of their careers! As for Halladay not being Randy Johnson...maybe not. Johnson was much more of a power and strikeout pitcher. That said, Halladay's career ERA is lower than Johnson's! Halladay may have 123 fewer wins than Johnson but he has also lost 77 fewer games than Johnson did at this point. Also, both guys were complete game machines. Johnson finished his career with 100 complete games, and Halladay already has 64 complete games in 10 fewer years, so he's not as far off as you think he is! I'd put Halladay's consistency against any pitcher in the past 100 years. Dude is flat out good and wins a whole lot more games than he ever loses.

[S2M]

3 Cy Youngs in 19 years is something to brag about?

I never claimed it was, but it's still a whole lot more than most guys win, which is zero. My larger point was that you're arguing the point that these guys are only good pitchers because they pitch in the NL, while completely ignoring the fact that both guys have pitched (and quite effectively) in the AL for 98% of their careers! As for Halladay not being Randy Johnson...maybe not. Johnson was much more of a power and strikeout pitcher. That said, Halladay's career ERA is lower than Johnson's! Halladay may have 123 fewer wins than Johnson but he has also lost 77 fewer games than Johnson did at this point. Also, both guys were complete game machines. Johnson finished his career with 100 complete games, and Halladay already has 64 complete games in 10 fewer years, so he's not as far off as you think he is! I'd put Halladay's consistency against any pitcher in the past 100 years. Dude is flat out good and wins a whole lot more games than he ever loses.

I'm going to say this one more time. WINS is a horrible pitching stat. If Cito Gaston and Manuel keep Halladay in games when they are up 6 or 7 runs - so what? That's on the offense, not the pitching. Like I've said before WINS, as a stat, doesn't impress me. Cause you could win 10-8, and you gave up 8 runs. Complete games doesn't impress me either, unless they are shutouts, or 2-1 games....

And I'm not really saying that Johnson was all that great either. Dude totally gets the benefit of being a 6-10 left-hander, with a wicked slider. I'd still take Pedro. 117-37. How's THAT for a winning percentage? And I know you weren't talking about Pedro. I'm just saying - best pitcher I've seen in my 42 years on this earth. Clemens was on the juice. His stats can get fucked.

[Enigma869]

I'm going to say this one more time. WINS is a horrible pitching stat. If Cito Gaston and Manuel keep Halladay in games when they are up 6 or 7 runs - so what? That's on the offense, not the pitching. Like I've said before WINS, as a stat, doesn't impress me. Cause you could win 10-8, and you gave up 8 runs. Complete games doesn't impress me either, unless they are shutouts, or 1-0 games....

And I'm not really saying that Johnson was all that great either. Dude totally gets the benefit of being a 6-10 left-hander, with a wicked slider. I'd still take Pedro. 117-37. How's THAT for a winning percentage? And I know you weren't talking about Pedro. I'm just saying - best pitcher I've seen in my 42 years on this earth. Clemens was on the juice. His stats can get fucked.

Considering that I said Johnson had 120 more wins than Halladay, I obviously don't put a lot of emphasis on the stat either. I don't agree with much of anything you say, but couldn't agree with you more on the win stat for a pitcher. The best thing that ever happened in baseball was Felix Hernandez winning the Cy Young last season with the fewest wins of ANY pitcher in the history of the award. I'm glad that baseball writers finally figured out the fact that wins is the one category that pitchers have zero control over! As for Pedro, just by virtue of his size, he was easily the most impressive pitcher I've ever seen. Most "stud" pitchers are 6"4" and 240lbs. Pedro was about 5'7" and 160lbs (with two rolls of quarters in his pocket), and the guy was simply unhittable during the prime of his career.

[conversationpc]

Sorry dude, but the Sox top three pitchers aren't close to Lee, Halladay, and Hamels. The reality is that prior to this season, Beckett has been a below average pitcher....

If you read what I actually said instead of what you wanted to hear...I'm talking about THIS season. All three of those guys pitching at the top of their game would be nearly as good as the three guys on the Phils, in my opinion. Actually, despite Cliff Lee's recent awesome performances, career-wise, his and Beckett's numbers are pretty close.

..and has really only had one good season with the Red Sox.

2007 was excellent for sure but 2009 was also above average (especially considering the dreadful start he got off to that year).

[S2M]

Honestly, I have NO IDEA how Pedro doesn't have a no-hitter. I remember one game when John Flaherty broke one up for Pedro in the 8th, or 9th. Every time that guy pitched, besides ALCS in '03 - I sat completely in awe of that dude. That game against Cleveland in '99(Game 5 ALDS) was the best pitching display I have ever seen...bar none.

[conversationpc]

Honestly, I have NO IDEA how Pedro doesn't have a no-hitter. I remember one game when John Flaherty broke one up for Pedro in the 8th, or 9th. Every time that guy pitched, besides ALCS in '03 - I sat completely in awe of that dude. That game against Cleveland in '99(Game 5 ALDS) was the best pitching display I have ever seen...bar none.

When he was still throwing 97 or 98, that dude had the best combination of velocity, control, and movement that I've ever seen. Simply amazing. Heck, he was still far better than average for awhile even after losing 7-8 mph on the fastball.

[Enigma869]

If you read what I actually said instead of what you wanted to hear...I'm talking about THIS season.

I'm pretty sure that I'm talking about this season as well. As I said, you can make the argument that Halladay and Lee are the best two pitchers in the NL. There isn't a guy on the Red Sox staff in the discussion this season! Verlander is better than all of them combined! My point is this season and this season alone. The Phillies top three starters are simply better, and that's even with the superb season that Beckett has been having. Beckett has the best ERA of all 6 guys, but the other two Boston guys are in the mid threes with their ERA's, while all three of Philly's top starters are below three and Lee and Hamels are below 2.50 ERA. Also, all three Philly guys have more strikeouts than any of the top three Sox starters. I'm not saying the Sox starters suck. They're simply not what the Phillies have. Anyone who watches these two staffs with an objective mind will come to the same conclusion.

2007 was excellent for sure but 2009 was also above average (especially considering the dreadful start he got off to that year).

You're correct about that, but it doesn't change the fact that Beckett has been an average pitcher for most of his career, and I actually like the guy!

[S2M]

Honestly, I have NO IDEA how Pedro doesn't have a no-hitter. I remember one game when John Flaherty broke one up for Pedro in the 8th, or 9th. Every time that guy pitched, besides ALCS in '03 - I sat completely in awe of that dude. That game against Cleveland in '99(Game 5 ALDS) was the best pitching display I have ever seen...bar none.

When he was still throwing 97 or 98, that dude had the best combination of velocity, control, and movement that I've ever seen. Simply amazing. Heck, he was still far better than average for awhile even after losing 7-8 mph on the fastball.

In that '99 ALDS against the Tribe, he went 6 no-hit innings of relief with JUST a curveball. Struck out 8, walked 3.