The time has come to fire Francona

[Enigma869]

Honestly, I have NO IDEA how Pedro doesn't have a no-hitter. I remember one game when John Flaherty broke one up for Pedro in the 8th, or 9th. Every time that guy pitched, besides ALCS in '03 - I sat completely in awe of that dude. That game against Cleveland in '99(Game 5 ALDS) was the best pitching display I have ever seen...bar none.

There are a lot of great pitchers in the history of major league baseball who don't have a no hitter. It's a goofy stat. Hell, Matt Young pitched a "no hitter" for the Red Sox and lost the fucking game! Nolan Ryan threw a fuckload of no hitters and had horrendous control. I saw Pedro pitch a one hitter against the Yankees on a Friday night in The Bronx, and it was one of the most dominant performances (including any no hitter I've ever seen) I've ever seen by any pitcher anywhere. The Yankees simply didn't have a clue against the guy.

[conversationpc]

Nolan Ryan threw a fuckload of no hitters and had horrendous control.

True...However, only in one of his no-hitters did he have bad control. He walked eight in the 1974 no hitter. He didn't walk more than four in any of the others. In his last one, he only walked two while striking out 16...at the age of 44!

[conversationpc]

Nolan Ryan threw a fuckload of no hitters and had horrendous control.

True...However, only in one of his no-hitters did he have bad control. He walked eight in the 1974 no hitter. He didn't walk more than four in any of the others. In his last one, he only walked two while striking out 16...at the age of 44!

Now that I'm looking at it again, he actually threw one at the age of 43 as well and only walked two and struck out 14 in that one.

[Enigma869]

True...However, only in one of his no-hitters did he have bad control. He walked eight in the 1974 no hitter. He didn't walk more than four in any of the others. In his last one, he only walked two while striking out 16...at the age of 44!

For the record, I wasn't referring to Ryan's control in the no hitters that he threw. Most guys who throw a no hitter have pretty good control during that game, hence the no hitter. My larger point was there were a lot of years during Ryan's career that he had no idea where the ball was going when it left his hand. As a result of which, he walked a whole lot of guys and hit a whole lot of others. He's basically the Brett Favre of baseball. He is the all time strike out king, but he's also the all time walk king!

[S2M]

From Wiki Pedro


Pedro Martínez was also the first right-handed pitcher to reach 300 strikeouts with an ERA under 2.00 since Walter Johnson in 1912.[/b]

Following up 1999, Martínez had perhaps his best year in 2000. Martínez posted an exceptional 1.74 ERA, the AL's lowest since 1978, while winning his third Cy Young award. His ERA was about a third of the park-adjusted league ERA (4.97). No other single season by a starting pitcher has had such a large differential. Roger Clemens' 3.70 was the second-lowest ERA in the AL, but was still more than double that of Martínez. Martínez also set a record in the lesser known sabermetric statistic of Weighted Runs allowed per 9 innings pitched (Wtd. RA/9), posting a remarkably low 1.55 Wtd. RA/9. He gave up only 128 hits in 217 innings, for an average of just 5.31 hits allowed per 9 innings pitched: the third lowest mark on record.

Martínez's record was 18–6, but could have been even better. In his six losses, Martínez had 60 strikeouts, 8 walks, and 30 hits allowed in 48 innings, with a 2.44 ERA and an 0.79 WHIP, while averaging 8 innings per start. Martínez's ERA in his losing games was less than the leading ERA total in the lower-scoring National League Kevin Brown's 2.58. The Yankees' Andy Pettitte outdueled the league's best pitcher twice; Martínez's other four losses were each by one run. Martínez's first loss of the year was a 1–0 complete game in which he had 17 strikeouts and 1 walk.

Martínez's WHIP in 2000 was 0.74, breaking both the 87-year-old modern Major League record set by Walter Johnson, as well as Guy Hecker's mark of 0.77 in 1882. The American League slugged just .259 against him. Hitters also had a .167 batting average and .213 on base percentage, setting two more modern era records. Martínez became the only starting pitcher in history to have more than twice as many strikeouts in a season (284) as hits allowed (128).

In the span of 1999 and 2000, Martínez allowed 288 hits and 69 walks in 430 innings, with 597 strikeouts, an 0.83 WHIP, and a 1.90 ERA. Some[who?] statisticians believe that in the circumstances — with lefty-friendly Fenway Park as his home field, in a league with a designated hitter, during the highest offensive period in baseball history — this performance represents the peak for any pitcher in baseball history.

Though he continued his dominance when healthy, carrying a sub-2.00 ERA to the midpoint of the following season, Martínez spent much of 2001 on the disabled list with a rotator cuff injury as the Red Sox slumped to a poor finish. Martínez finished with a 7–3 record, a 2.39 ERA, and 163 strikeouts, but only threw 116 innings.

Healthy in 2002, he rebounded to lead the league with a 2.26 ERA, 0.923 WHIP and 239 strikeouts, while going 20–4. However, that season's American League Cy Young Award narrowly went to 23-game winner Barry Zito of the Oakland A's, despite Zito's higher ERA, higher WHIP, fewer strikeouts, and lower winning percentage. Martínez became the first pitcher since the introduction of the Cy Young Award to lead his league in each of those four statistics, yet not win the award.

Martínez's record was 14–4 in 2003. He led the league in ERA for the fifth time with 2.22, also led in WHIP for the fifth time at 1.04, and finished second to league leader Esteban Loaiza by a single strikeout. Martínez came in third for the 2003 Cy Young Award, which went to Toronto's Roy Halladay. SO ROY DIDN'T LEAD THE LEAGUE IN EITHER ERA, OR WHIP, CAME IN AT MOST 3RD IN STRIKEOUTS....How did this guy win the CY award?



Martínez finished his Red Sox career with a 117–37 record, the highest winning percentage any pitcher has had with any team in baseball history.

Martínez became just the fourth pitcher to reach 3,000 strikeouts with fewer than 1,000 walks (in Martínez's case, 701). Ferguson Jenkins, Greg Maddux and Curt Schilling had previously done likewise. Martínez also joined Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson to become the third 3,000-strikeout pitcher to have more strikeouts than innings pitched, and is also the first Latin American pitcher to have 3,000 strikeouts.

[conversationpc]

True...However, only in one of his no-hitters did he have bad control. He walked eight in the 1974 no hitter. He didn't walk more than four in any of the others. In his last one, he only walked two while striking out 16...at the age of 44!

For the record, I wasn't referring to Ryan's control in the no hitters that he threw. Most guys who throw a no hitter have pretty good control during that game, hence the no hitter. My larger point was there were a lot of years during Ryan's career that he had no idea where the ball was going when it left his hand. As a result of which, he walked a whole lot of guys and hit a whole lot of others. He's basically the Brett Favre of baseball. He is the all time strike out king, but he's also the all time walk king!

For as bad as his control was (and I don't think that decreases his greatness), he really didn't hit a whole lot of batters. The most he ever hit was 15 and he only reached double figures in that category one other time and that was with 10. One thing that's amazing to me with him is that, once he reached his 30s and his control drastically improved, he STILL managed to keep guys from hitting the ball and still has the all-time record for fewest hits allowed per nine innings. A lot of people don't realize how good a curveball he had to go along with that great fastball.

[Enigma869]

For as bad as his control was (and I don't think that decreases his greatness), he really didn't hit a whole lot of batters. The most he ever hit was 15 and he only reached double figures in that category one other time and that was with 10. One thing that's amazing to me with him is that, once he reached his 30s and his control drastically improved, he STILL managed to keep guys from hitting the ball and still has the all-time record for fewest hits allowed per nine innings. A lot of people don't realize how good a curveball he had to go along with that great fastball.

Ryan is a guy I've always been on the fence about. The number of no hitters and strikeouts he has on their surface are very impressive and in my opinion, untouchable records. That said, the guy played almost 30 freakin' years (27 to be exact). You hang around that many years, you're going to have a few records. I think his career ERA is VERY good (especially by today's standards). It's still worth mentioning that in 27 seasons, the guy never once won a Cy Young Award, which is unfathomable for a guy with his strikeout numbers. To bolster my point further about his shortcomings as a MLB pitcher, he led the league in walks 9 times over his major league career (unheard of for a stud pitcher) and finished in the top 5 for most walks during seven other seasons when he wasn't first! He also led the league in most wild pitches in 6 major league seasons and finished in the top 3 during 6 other seasons! You are correct that he didn't hit as many guys as I thought. In fact, he only led the league once in that category and is ranked 15th all time for number of guys hit, but he still finished 1st or 2nd in that category 5 times during his career. Again, very good pitcher and worthy of the HOF in my opinion. He just wasn't nearly as good as many think he was. I've seen many pitchers during my lifetime who were FAR better pitchers than Ryan ever was.

[Saint John]

in 27 seasons, the guy never once won a Cy Young Award

It's also worth noting that he played on some absolutely horrendous teams. Like the 1974 Angels that lost 94 games, yet he won 22 games, hurled 332 innings, struck out 367 and logged a 2.89 e.r.a. Fuck, he lost 16 games in a season while posting a 2.28 e.r.a. Granted this was during the times when there were 4 man rotations, but still.

To bolster my point further about his shortcomings as a MLB pitcher, he led the league in walks 9 times over his major league career (unheard of for a stud pitcher) and finished in the top 5 for most walks during seven other seasons when he wasn't first! He also led the league in most wild pitches in 6 major league seasons and finished in the top 3 during 6 other seasons!

And all of this means ... nothing! Walks don't mean a fucking thing if they don't score and/or affect your innings pitched. The guy kept his e.r.a. under 4 for 25 consecutive seasons threw 300+ innings twice and 200+ innings 12 times and was almost always healthy. Translation ... those walks didn't mean anything. Wild pitches? Guys with stuff that nasty always have a lot of wild pitches. Another stat that is really worthless.

He just wasn't nearly as good as many think he was.

Oh yes he was. The guy was a dominant pitcher that played on mediocre teams. 25 straight years with an e.r.a. under 4 is just an incredible and telling stat of just how good he was. As is 8 no-hitters and 5700+ K's.

[Enigma869]

Oh yes he was. The guy was a dominant pitcher that played on mediocre teams. 25 straight years with an e.r.a. under 4 is just an incredible and telling stat of just how good he was. As is 8 no-hitters and 5700+ K's.

One could argue (and I certainly would) that his strikeout numbers are a product of pitching for three decades. Ryan was good, and even really good some years. His 8 no hitters are astonishing. We'll agree to disagree that his lack of control was completely meaningless. It's the sole reason that he was never once recognized as the best pitcher in a single season, which is an astonishing fact for a pitcher with Ryan's numbers!

[S2M]

Nolan Ryan's ERA+ is 111. Bob Gibson and Greg Maddox have ERA+ measures of over 120. Ryan also walked 4.67 batters per game, and only averaged 6.6 innings per game. His stats are longevity stats, just like Ripken's...not impressive to me. Now I'm sure most will look and say he was durable. That may be so, but I'd put him will the likes of Sutton, and Niekro...

Another thing. Ryan had a flamethrower for an arm - that's it. He was born with it. He wasn't a skilled pitcher. In fact, he didn't pitch, he threw. That's like a 600lb man sitting down in net for the Bruins. He was born fat. That's not a skill. Ryan probably got almost all his strike outs by way of swinging. That's just plain heat. I'll take pitchers over throwers all day long. Cause guys can learn to catch up with speed. hitting a curveball in a skill.

[Saint John]

One could argue (and I certainly would) that his strikeout numbers are a product of pitching for three decades.

Then everyone should keep themselves in the same incredible shape that he did and pitch for 3 decades. Regardless, he still averaged over 200 K's per season, even while pitching till he was 46.

We'll agree to disagree that his lack of control was completely meaningless.

Prove that is was then. I don't see it as having affecting his e.r.a. or innings pitched, and have offered up stats to help prove that, and I'll guarantee that some of his control issues could also be deemed as "effectively wild." In other words, you never sat really comfortable in the batter's box while he was pitching, and in that way it was actually a positive. Like Randy Johnson at times, people were reportedly literally scared of facing Ryan at times.

It's the sole reason that he was never once recognized as the best pitcher in a single season

This is completely speculation. Or did you poll the Cy Young voters from that era?


Nonetheless, great debating, John.

[KenTheDude]

One could argue (and I certainly would) that his strikeout numbers are a product of pitching for three decades.

Then everyone should keep themselves in the same incredible shape that he did and pitch for 3 decades. Regardless, he still averaged over 200 K's per season, even while pitching till he was 46.

We'll agree to disagree that his lack of control was completely meaningless.

Prove that is was then. I don't see it as having affecting his e.r.a. or innings pitched, and have offered up stats to help prove that, and I'll guarantee that some of his control issues could also be deemed as "effectively wild." In other words, you never sat really comfortable in the batter's box while he was pitching, and in that way it was actually a positive. Like Randy Johnson at times, people were reportedly literally scared of facing Ryan at times.

It's the sole reason that he was never once recognized as the best pitcher in a single season

This is completely speculation. Or did you poll the Cy Young voters from that era?


Nonetheless, great debating, John.

I'm with you Dan about Ryan being a top-notch pitcher. But he threw 7 no-hitters, not 8. Still an unbelievable stat that will probably never be surpassed.

[Red13JoePa]

He is a brutal manager who's benefited from a huge payroll and an all-star lineup.

Ask Phillies fans.

Bowa took the last place team Francona butchered in 2000, subtracted Curt Schilling and Mike Lieberthal, 2 all stars, and managed an average Phillies team to a near NL East Pennant in 2001.

[conversationpc]

He is a brutal manager who's benefited from a huge payroll and an all-star lineup.

I'd almost agree with that if it weren't for the job he did last year, managing a team with most of the best players on the DL for all or most of the year and still getting them to 89 wins and almost making the playoffs in the toughest division in baseball.

[Saint John]

His stats are longevity stats

Showcasing your knowledge of the game again I see! Ryan's 301, 327, 329, 341, 367 and 383 strikeout seasons had nothing to do with "longevity." Neither did leading the league in shutouts 3 times before the age of 32 and throwing a staggering 72 complete games over 3 seasons before he was 28. And he pitched 942 innings in a 3 year span before he was 28.

Another thing. Ryan had a flamethrower for an arm - that's it.

Stop, really. You just don't know what you're talking about at all. Nolan Ryan had an absolutely devastating curveball.

He wasn't a skilled pitcher.

Laughable. The guy set up a lot of hitters and schooled them with knee-buckling curveballs in fast ball counts.

guys can learn to catch up with speed. hitting a curveball in a skill.

You just don't know baseball, dude. Not at all. Just a stat whore, with no real in-depth knowledge of the game. You "can learn to catch up" to a one trick pony fast ball pitcher. But Ryan certainly wasn't that, even though that's what you're trying to say. He had 2 pitches that were arguably as good as anyone's ever (fast ball and curve) and developed a solid changeup pretty late in his career. Not bad for a guy that wasn't a "skilled pitcher."

[conversationpc]

His stats are longevity stats

Showcasing your knowledge of the game again I see! Ryan's 301, 327, 329, 341, 367 and 383 strikeout seasons had nothing to do with "longevity." Neither did leading the league in shutouts 3 times before the age of 32 and throwing a staggering 72 complete games over 3 seasons before he was 28. And he pitched 942 innings in a 3 year span before he was 28.

Another thing. Ryan had a flamethrower for an arm - that's it.

Stop, really. You just don't know what you're talking about at all. Nolan Ryan had an absolutely devastating curveball.

He wasn't a skilled pitcher.

Laughable. The guy set up a lot of hitters and schooled them with knee-buckling curveballs in fast ball counts.

guys can learn to catch up with speed. hitting a curveball in a skill.

You just don't know baseball, dude. Not at all. Just a stat whore, with no real in-depth knowledge of the game. You "can learn to catch up" to a one trick pony fast ball pitcher. But Ryan certainly wasn't that, even though that's what you're trying to say. He had 2 pitches that were arguably as good as anyone's ever (fast ball and curve) and developed a solid changeup pretty late in his career. Not bad for a guy that wasn't a "skilled pitcher."

All of this plus that high leg kick, which helped him hide the ball for a slightly longer time than hitters are used to and the LONG ASS stride off the mound as well.

[Enigma869]

In other words, you never sat really comfortable in the batter's box while he was pitching, and in that way it was actually a positive. Like Randy Johnson at times, people were reportedly literally scared of facing Ryan at times.

Talk about stating the obvious. Ryan was known as a guy who didn't have great control. For the first part of his career, he had no idea where the ball was going when it left his hand, so everyone standing in the batters's box should have been VERY afraid. Dude threw GAS!

This is completely speculation. Or did you poll the Cy Young voters from that era?

Sure it's speculation, but I don't hear you advancing a more cogent theory about how a guy with Ryan's numbers (and many of his numbers are impressive) never won a Cy Young Award. Hell, if you look at the voting over the course of his career, he only finished second in the voting once. I just think if he had better control, he would have finiished with as many Cy Youngs as he had no hitters!

[S2M]

Plain and simple: Nolan Ryan is a Top 25 pitcher, nothing more....probably around 19-20.

Ryan proponents are the same ones jizzing over Ripken's Iron Man record. "Let's see...I'm not feeling well today, but want to keep my record going - I'll play the first inning - then sit down....."

[Saint John]

Sure it's speculation, but I don't hear you advancing a more cogent theory about how a guy with Ryan's numbers (and many of his numbers are impressive) never won a Cy Young Award.

Someone was just better than him every year. I don't find that to really take any of his greatness away. That, and run support. He played on very mediocre teams. I can ask you why a guy that had Pedro's stuff never had one no-hitter, but it's really irrelevant to his greatness. But I think it does say something that Ryan had 7 no-hitters and 12 one-hitters.

Hell, if you look at the voting over the course of his career, he only finished second in the voting once. I just think if he had better control, he would have finiished with as many Cy Youngs as he had no hitters!

And I think that that improved control may have led to more comfortable batters getting more hits. Just a theory, but I think it's a plausible one.

[Enigma869]

Plain and simple: Nolan Ryan is a Top 25 pitcher, nothing more....probably around 19-20.

I'd have to really give it some thought, but there is absolutely no way that Ryan is a top 10 pitcher, in spite of all the no hitters and strikeouts. I'd take Justin Verlander right now over Ryan in his prime, and I'm not even sure that Verlander is a Hall of Famer (yet).

Ryan proponents are the same ones jizzing over Ripken's Iron Man record. "Let's see...I'm not feeling well today, but want to keep my record going - I'll play the first inning - then sit down....."

Ripken's "streak" was every bit as goofy as Favre's fradulent "streak". Who gives a rat's ass about anyone's selfish need to get their name in the record book for some artificial streak. Get back to me when someone ever hits .400 again (which will NEVER happen) or gets the Triple Crown (much more likely to happen, even though it hasn't since 1967).

[conversationpc]

Sure it's speculation, but I don't hear you advancing a more cogent theory about how a guy with Ryan's numbers (and many of his numbers are impressive) never won a Cy Young Award.

Someone was just better than him every year. I don't find that to really take any of his greatness away. That, and run support. He played on very mediocre teams. I can ask you why a guy that had Pedro's stuff never had one no-hitter, but it's really irrelevant to his greatness. But I think it does say something that Ryan had 7 no-hitters and 12 one-hitters.

Hell, if you look at the voting over the course of his career, he only finished second in the voting once. I just think if he had better control, he would have finiished with as many Cy Youngs as he had no hitters!

And I think that that improved control may have led to more comfortable batters getting more hits. Just a theory, but I think it's a plausible one.

He did finish in the top 10 eight different times, including in the top 5 once with an 8-16 record with a horrible Houston team.

[S2M]

Sure it's speculation, but I don't hear you advancing a more cogent theory about how a guy with Ryan's numbers (and many of his numbers are impressive) never won a Cy Young Award.

Someone was just better than him every year. I don't find that to really take any of his greatness away. That, and run support. He played on very mediocre teams. I can ask you why a guy that had Pedro's stuff never had one no-hitter, but it's really irrelevant to his greatness. But I think it does say something that Ryan had 7 no-hitters and 12 one-hitters.

Hell, if you look at the voting over the course of his career, he only finished second in the voting once. I just think if he had better control, he would have finiished with as many Cy Youngs as he had no hitters!

And I think that that improved control may have led to more comfortable batters getting more hits. Just a theory, but I think it's a plausible one.

Pedro DID have a no-hitter through 9 innings....game went to extras, and someone blew it.

[Enigma869]

I can ask you why a guy that had Pedro's stuff never had one no-hitter, but it's really irrelevant to his greatness. But I think it does say something that Ryan had 7 no-hitters and 12 one-hitters.

The no hitter argument is a dopey one. Let me state it again...Ryan's no hitters were fucking impressive. Any dude with that many of them is just astonishing. Now that we have that out of the way...take a look through baseball history and see how many great, great pitchers never had a no hitter and how many triple A pitchers had no hitters. As I said earlier in this thread, Matt Young threw a no-hitter with the Red Sox and actually lost the game. I'm pretty sure that Hdeo Nomo threw two no hitters (one with the Dodgers and one with the Red Sox). The no-hitter in baseball is the luckiest stat of all stats, and I think Ryan would even tell you that.

[Enigma869]

He did finish in the top 10 eight different times, including in the top 5 once with an 8-16 record with a horrible Houston team.

Bragging about finishing in the top ten in Cy Young voting for a guy with Ryan's numbers is like me bragging that the Red Sox were one of the final two teams in the 1986 World Series! He won ZERO and as Dan pointed out, had record setting strikeout numbers that will never be seen again!

[S2M]

Lester left in the 5th with a no-hitter going....

Strained LAT muscle....I hope it isn't like Peavy's, and torn from the bone.

[Seven Wishes2]

He'll be fine.

Papelbum, on the other hand, needs to go NOW. I've been saying this for over a year now. He's awful. Bard should be closing at this point.

[conversationpc]

He'll be fine.

Papelbum, on the other hand, needs to go NOW. I've been saying this for over a year now. He's awful. Bard should be closing at this point.

Despite his ERA being 4.01 at the moment, he's closing games better this year, with only one blown save, compared to the eight he had last year. That being said, I think the Sox should trade him for another top player and close with Bard.

[conversationpc]

Ugh...Lester on the DL for at least two weeks and possibly up to four. They have Kevin Millwood at Pawtucket but he was 4-16 last year with a 5.01 ERA. I'm not confident he'd be much better than Lackey at this point.

They've also got Felix Doubront at AAA and he's been throwing well but he's been inconsistent and he's been used mostly as a reliever at the big league level and was inconsistent even at that.

Weiland is a good prospect but that's about it. He hasn't pitched at the major league level yet.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

Ugh...Lester on the DL for at least two weeks and possibly up to four. They have Kevin Millwood at Pawtucket but he was 4-16 last year with a 5.01 ERA. I'm not confident he'd be much better than Lackey at this point.

They've also got Felix Doubront at AAA and he's been throwing well but he's been inconsistent and he's been used mostly as a reliever at the big league level and was inconsistent even at that.

Weiland is a good prospect but that's about it. He hasn't pitched at the major league level yet.

Thats a blow. They ll need to get back to that little stretch where they were scoring 8-10 runs a game. Guess they need old man Wakefield to keep winning like he did last night

[Seven Wishes2]

Just like last year, with the injuries. The Yankees are the luckiest franchise in baseball.