Why Elipse flopped for the average fan

[The_Noble_Cause]

I'm thinking thy were gonna do an EP... but got carried away writing in the studio....

Jon and Neal both confirmed this in interviews. Wmart originally only wanted an EP with the Revelation deal too. It's Neal pushing for full albums.

[stevew2]

I think Ellipse is the better title for the CD.

If SA was still with the band they could have named it Helipse.

that was really funny fat ass

[steveo777]

I think Ellipse is the better title for the CD.

If SA was still with the band they could have named it Helipse.

that was really funny fat ass

Stevie! Where ya been? Good to see ya.

[stevew2]

I think Ellipse is the better title for the CD.

If SA was still with the band they could have named it Helipse.

that was really funny fat ass

Stevie! Where ya been? Good to see ya.

I ve been busy with life and shit.Thought id check in. Has anybody seen Journey yet this year?

[AR]

I ve been busy with life and shit.Thought id check in. Has anybody seen Journey yet this year?

Nope but Frontiers is supposed to play Rams Head next week. Jeremey has a vocal chord issue though so not sure if it will happen or not.

[yulog]

I expected something far heavier, but was quite relieved Eclipse came out sounded as it did. I don't see why, with a little more promotion, something like 'Anything Is Possible' couldn't elevate the album to greater success.

I have to agree somewhat , this is not some heavy album(dark maybe heavy no), I don't know why they would think that Arnel would be suited for Hard rock. I was never for Soto being the lead for journey , he just didn't seem to be the right fit for this band, but if they were planning to do this type of album they should have just did it with him,and if it didn't work out Arnel still would have been on you tube.(they could have done revelation after a soto fronted cd).

That said , Anything is Possible is the best Pineda fronted journey song I've heard and "someone" is very journeyesque as well, if they pushed those two songs in todays music community they could have a succesful cd.

SugarRay became a household name with a cd that had 2 songs on their 1999 cd "someday' and 'every morning", the rest of the cd was absolute garbage but the cd was succesful because they pushed those 2 songs. By the new music standards if journey pushed those 2 songs they could have some success but by journeys standards this is far from a stellar cd.

[steveo777]

I think Ellipse is the better title for the CD.

If SA was still with the band they could have named it Helipse.

that was really funny fat ass

Stevie! Where ya been? Good to see ya.

I ve been busy with life and shit.Thought id check in. Has anybody seen Journey yet this year?

Only on Youtube. I'll be going to a show toward the end of the tour.

[stevew2]

I ve been busy with life and shit.Thought id check in. Has anybody seen Journey yet this year?

Nope but Frontiers is supposed to play Rams Head next week. Jeremey has a vocal chord issue though so not sure if it will happen or not.

what date Ed?

[stevew2]

I think Ellipse is the better title for the CD.

If SA was still with the band they could have named it Helipse.

that was really funny fat ass

Stevie! Where ya been? Good to see ya.

I ve been busy with life and shit.Thought id check in. Has anybody seen Journey yet this year?

Only on Youtube. I'll be going to a show toward the end of the tour.

i might go to one in sept. the fuckin ticket prices are really high

[AR]

I ve been busy with life and shit.Thought id check in. Has anybody seen Journey yet this year?

Nope but Frontiers is supposed to play Rams Head next week. Jeremey has a vocal chord issue though so not sure if it will happen or not.

what date Ed?

Friday July 22nd

[yulog]

Average fan? It flopped for a lot of hardcore fans as well.

Zing!

[jestor92]

The album flopped because the album isn't very good. People say because of lack of promotion which to a point I agree with, but how much more publicity did they get for Revelation? That album sucked and I think that album hurt this albums sales some what. My reason for that is because if you're a casual fan and you see a package of a band that has 1 cd of new music, 1 of GH, and a dvd you go to listen to the package and the album of new music is lackluster, you're not going to go back and purchase the next album that the band released especially if it doesn't have any kind of cool packaging to help sell it. Also R\realistically who is going to promote an album that doesn't have 1 quality single on it? Hell I have a hard time trying to find 2 good songs on the album and I've tried.

The Pro's of the album:

Musically it's a very solid record. Quite possibly the best (musically and experimentally) they've done since Trial By Fire.
Chain of Love is a bad ass song.

The Con's of the album:

Calling the packaging a joke would be a compliment.
Most of the songs on the album can't be saved by the music alone. Lyrics are horrid or...
Arnel's voice kills some of the songs.
Nothing on the album jumps out and makes you want to go "Wow that was a great song, let me hear that again."

I might be called an Arnel basher, but I went back and listened to Revelation and then listened to Eclipse to see why I don't like Arnel's voice and it finally came to me. When he's singing low in more of a natural voice he sounds fantastic. It's the times when he tries (which happens a lot in Eclipse) to sing higher that his voice sounds thin, he can't control it, and sounds like he's straining himself. There are some times when he's singing high when he sounds good the rocking section of She's A Mystery is a prime example because he seems to just let it rip; however, when he tries to sing high he doesn't sound well. I don't know if he's trying to sing what he physically can't sing or if they're telling him to try to sound like Perry, but it just doesn't work. Augeri didn't have the pipes to sing like Arnel does, but he knew his limitations and didn't let his voice harm the song.

[steveo777]

The album flopped because the album isn't very good. People say because of lack of promotion which to a point I agree with, but how much more publicity did they get for Revelation? That album sucked and I think that album hurt this albums sales some what. My reason for that is because if you're a casual fan and you see a package of a band that has 1 cd of new music, 1 of GH, and a dvd you go to listen to the package and the album of new music is lackluster, you're not going to go back and purchase the next album that the band released especially if it doesn't have any kind of cool packaging to help sell it. Also R\realistically who is going to promote an album that doesn't have 1 quality single on it? Hell I have a hard time trying to find 2 good songs on the album and I've tried.

The Pro's of the album:

Musically it's a very solid record. Quite possibly the best (musically and experimentally) they've done since Trial By Fire.
Chain of Love is a bad ass song.

The Con's of the album:

Calling the packaging a joke would be a compliment.
Most of the songs on the album can't be saved by the music alone. Lyrics are horrid or...
Arnel's voice kills some of the songs.
Nothing on the album jumps out and makes you want to go "Wow that was a great song, let me hear that again."

I might be called an Arnel basher, but I went back and listened to Revelation and then listened to Eclipse to see why I don't like Arnel's voice and it finally came to me. When he's singing low in more of a natural voice he sounds fantastic. It's the times when he tries (which happens a lot in Eclipse) to sing higher that his voice sounds thin, he can't control it, and sounds like he's straining himself. There are some times when he's singing high when he sounds good the rocking section of She's A Mystery is a prime example because he seems to just let it rip; however, when he tries to sing high he doesn't sound well. I don't know if he's trying to sing what he physically can't sing or if they're telling him to try to sound like Perry, but it just doesn't work. Augeri didn't have the pipes to sing like Arnel does, but he knew his limitations and didn't let his voice harm the song.

While Arnel might not be up to your personal tastes in a singer, he is probably one of the best out there for this type of catalog. Most concert reviews I've read
concur with this. Fans are very divided on this album....you either love the damn thing, or you hate it. There isn't much middle ground. There are only two songs,
honestly, that I can remove from the album and never look back. The rest of them, more or less, I like. There are 4 that I love. What I like most about this album
is that I feel we get the real Arnel, not someone being paid to sound like Steve Perry, although he has a resemblance on Someone and Ritual, at least to my ear.
The album is dark and a bit heavy for the casual fan. It is also not what one expects from a Journey album. I'm ok with this.

[Don]

Some of the French fans complained about the lack of songs from Revelation and how the band lost the crowd a bit while playing the new songs. I think we can say that the top act for the Euro tour was more or less Foreigner. They recieved great reviews pretty much every gig, where Journey had issues either with sound, monitors that no one could see or setlist questions pretty much the whole time in Europe.

I may not have been a big fan of Revelation but I did say early on here that they should include at least one song on their setlist from that album. It did move 800k copies, time to give it a little respect, at least live.

[AR]

Some of the French fans complained about the lack of songs from Revelation and how the band lost the crowd a bit while playing the new songs. I think we can say that the top act for the Euro tour was more or less Foreigner. They recieved great reviews pretty much every gig, where Journey had issues either with sound, monitors that no one could see or setlist questions pretty much the whole time in Europe.

I may not have been a big fan of Revelation but I did say early on here that they should include at least one song on their setlist from that album. It did move 800k copies, time to give it a little respect, at least live.

800K divided by 2

A single disc that sold half made exactly the same amount of money. RIAA smoke and mirrors. Still it sold well, but the certification thing doesn't make anyone extra money.

[Ritchie]

I might be called an Arnel basher, but I went back and listened to Revelation and then listened to Eclipse to see why I don't like Arnel's voice and it finally came to me. When he's singing low in more of a natural voice he sounds fantastic. It's the times when he tries (which happens a lot in Eclipse) to sing higher that his voice sounds thin, he can't control it, and sounds like he's straining himself. There are some times when he's singing high when he sounds good the rocking section of She's A Mystery is a prime example because he seems to just let it rip; however, when he tries to sing high he doesn't sound well. I don't know if he's trying to sing what he physically can't sing or if they're telling him to try to sound like Perry, but it just doesn't work. Augeri didn't have the pipes to sing like Arnel does, but he knew his limitations and didn't let his voice harm the song.

When Pineda applies his upper register his voice sometimes gets in a kind of overdrive..it reminds me a little of Ronny James Dio and the way he sang.
Some will call it "straining" but it`s Pineda`s way to tackle those high notes.
If you listen to the song "Tantra" the high notes on that one do sound crystal clear to me and without straining so he`s capable of delivering it that way.

[NoMoreTails]

On the "she's my ooh la la" part in She's a Mystery Arnel sounds as pure, pristine and effortless as anything Perry ever did, then on the the rocking section he wails like Perry never did on a rocker. He's much more at ease and convincing on the more rocking stuff than Perry ever was. I think what some of the hardcore Perry fans miss is Perry's melodrama, which I could always do without.

[Gideon]

I think what some of the hardcore Perry fans miss is Perry's melodrama, which I could always do without.

I believe the Loons refer to that as "emoting."

[yandtguy]

On the "she's my ooh la la" part in She's a Mystery Arnel sounds as pure, pristine and effortless as anything Perry ever did, then on the the rocking section he wails like Perry never did on a rocker. He's much more at ease and convincing on the more rocking stuff than Perry ever was. I think what some of the hardcore Perry fans miss is Perry's melodrama, which I could always do without.

One song: "Edge Of The Blade"
Arnel will never touch Perry on "Edge of the Blade." Also, Perry was pretty convincing on "Separate Ways." Plenty of wailing on that one, too. You can go all the way back to Infinity, and Perry's wailing away on "La Do Da." I think your Perry hatred made you stretch on that statement. I like Arnel, but Perry sang (notice I used past tense) with a strength and aggression (when needed) in the upper register that Arnel just doesn't have. Even "Be Good To Yourself" has some really great rock singing. That song is probably the last example of a song where he cut loose on song in a high key and made it sound effortless, though the raspiness was in full effect.

It's really a moot point these days. Perry can't physically do what he did in the past. I will say that he was able to do some decent wailing on "I Can See It In Your Eyes," though in a lower register than the old days. I have zero problems with Arnel's vocals on Eclipse by the way, just pointing out that Perry did his fair share of great rock singing.
Greg

[NoMoreTails]

On the "she's my ooh la la" part in She's a Mystery Arnel sounds as pure, pristine and effortless as anything Perry ever did, then on the the rocking section he wails like Perry never did on a rocker. He's much more at ease and convincing on the more rocking stuff than Perry ever was. I think what some of the hardcore Perry fans miss is Perry's melodrama, which I could always do without.

One song: "Edge Of The Blade"
Arnel will never touch Perry on "Edge of the Blade." Also, Perry was pretty convincing on "Separate Ways." Plenty of wailing on that one, too. You can go all the way back to Infinity, and Perry's wailing away on "La Do Da." I think your Perry hatred made you stretch on that statement. I like Arnel, but Perry sang (notice I used past tense) with a strength and aggression (when needed) in the upper register that Arnel just doesn't have. Even "Be Good To Yourself" has some really great rock singing. That song is probably the last example of a song where he cut loose on song in a high key and made it sound effortless, though the raspiness was in full effect.

It's really a moot point these days. Perry can't physically do what he did in the past. I will say that he was able to do some decent wailing on "I Can See It In Your Eyes," though in a lower register than the old days. I have zero problems with Arnel's vocals on Eclipse by the way, just pointing out that Perry did his fair share of great rock singing.
Greg

Hatred is a strong word....but at times I did like Journey in spite of him rather than because of him.
I'll agree on those two, though I was really thinking of the stuff that was a bit heavier than SW and I though I like EOTB, it isn't due to Perry's vocal on it. I would not say BGTY is that rocking vocally. Even on the harder stuff like LaDoDa, Lay It Down, etc, Perry is an R&B singer trying to sing a rock song. I like a singer with more of an edge on those kinds of songs. Arnel has some of an Augeri edge (SA was more influenced by rockers than Sam Cooke) with Perry power.

[yandtguy]

On the "she's my ooh la la" part in She's a Mystery Arnel sounds as pure, pristine and effortless as anything Perry ever did, then on the the rocking section he wails like Perry never did on a rocker. He's much more at ease and convincing on the more rocking stuff than Perry ever was. I think what some of the hardcore Perry fans miss is Perry's melodrama, which I could always do without.

One song: "Edge Of The Blade"
Arnel will never touch Perry on "Edge of the Blade." Also, Perry was pretty convincing on "Separate Ways." Plenty of wailing on that one, too. You can go all the way back to Infinity, and Perry's wailing away on "La Do Da." I think your Perry hatred made you stretch on that statement. I like Arnel, but Perry sang (notice I used past tense) with a strength and aggression (when needed) in the upper register that Arnel just doesn't have. Even "Be Good To Yourself" has some really great rock singing. That song is probably the last example of a song where he cut loose on song in a high key and made it sound effortless, though the raspiness was in full effect.

It's really a moot point these days. Perry can't physically do what he did in the past. I will say that he was able to do some decent wailing on "I Can See It In Your Eyes," though in a lower register than the old days. I have zero problems with Arnel's vocals on Eclipse by the way, just pointing out that Perry did his fair share of great rock singing.
Greg

Hatred is a strong word....but at times I did like Journey in spite of him rather than because of him.
I'll agree on those two, though I was really thinking of the stuff that was a bit heavier than SW and I though I like EOTB, it isn't due to Perry's vocal on it. I would not say BGTY is that rocking vocally. Even on the harder stuff like LaDoDa, Lay It Down, etc, Perry is an R&B singer trying to sing a rock song. I like a singer with more of an edge on those kinds of songs. Arnel has some of an Augeri edge (SA was more influenced by rockers than Sam Cooke) with Perry power.

I get what you are saying, and I do agree that he approaches his vocals with more of an R&B awareness and flavor. I think that's why there is a divide among people. It doesn't seem like many guys with soaring tenors have that R&B background. If Soto were a tenor, Journey would have hit a home run with him, because he does have it. I also agree that Steve A. and Arnel have a nice edge, but Perry's combination of edge and soul is my preference.

As to using the word "hate," the teens I work with have rubbed off on me. Hate has really become "don't like" these days. Didn't mean to imply anything other than I perceived that you didn't care for Perry's vocals as much as subsequent vocalists in Journey.

Greg

[belar]

The album flopped because the album isn't very good. People say because of lack of promotion which to a point I agree with, but how much more publicity did they get for Revelation? That album sucked and I think that album hurt this albums sales some what. My reason for that is because if you're a casual fan and you see a package of a band that has 1 cd of new music, 1 of GH, and a dvd you go to listen to the package and the album of new music is lackluster, you're not going to go back and purchase the next album that the band released especially if it doesn't have any kind of cool packaging to help sell it. Also R\realistically who is going to promote an album that doesn't have 1 quality single on it? Hell I have a hard time trying to find 2 good songs on the album and I've tried.

The Pro's of the album:

Musically it's a very solid record. Quite possibly the best (musically and experimentally) they've done since Trial By Fire.
Chain of Love is a bad ass song.

The Con's of the album:

Calling the packaging a joke would be a compliment.
Most of the songs on the album can't be saved by the music alone. Lyrics are horrid or...
Arnel's voice kills some of the songs.
Nothing on the album jumps out and makes you want to go "Wow that was a great song, let me hear that again."

I might be called an Arnel basher, but I went back and listened to Revelation and then listened to Eclipse to see why I don't like Arnel's voice and it finally came to me. When he's singing low in more of a natural voice he sounds fantastic. It's the times when he tries (which happens a lot in Eclipse) to sing higher that his voice sounds thin, he can't control it, and sounds like he's straining himself. There are some times when he's singing high when he sounds good the rocking section of She's A Mystery is a prime example because he seems to just let it rip; however, when he tries to sing high he doesn't sound well. I don't know if he's trying to sing what he physically can't sing or if they're telling him to try to sound like Perry, but it just doesn't work. Augeri didn't have the pipes to sing like Arnel does, but he knew his limitations and didn't let his voice harm the song.

Some good points in this post, although personally I think Revelation was far and away better than Eclipse. Whether we're expecting a "classic Journey sound" on this record or not, the songs just aren't very good. There's not one on there that makes me want to listen to it over and over again. That's unfortunate.

[steveo777]

The album flopped because the album isn't very good. People say because of lack of promotion which to a point I agree with, but how much more publicity did they get for Revelation? That album sucked and I think that album hurt this albums sales some what. My reason for that is because if you're a casual fan and you see a package of a band that has 1 cd of new music, 1 of GH, and a dvd you go to listen to the package and the album of new music is lackluster, you're not going to go back and purchase the next album that the band released especially if it doesn't have any kind of cool packaging to help sell it. Also R\realistically who is going to promote an album that doesn't have 1 quality single on it? Hell I have a hard time trying to find 2 good songs on the album and I've tried.

The Pro's of the album:

Musically it's a very solid record. Quite possibly the best (musically and experimentally) they've done since Trial By Fire.
Chain of Love is a bad ass song.

The Con's of the album:

Calling the packaging a joke would be a compliment.
Most of the songs on the album can't be saved by the music alone. Lyrics are horrid or...
Arnel's voice kills some of the songs.
Nothing on the album jumps out and makes you want to go "Wow that was a great song, let me hear that again."

I might be called an Arnel basher, but I went back and listened to Revelation and then listened to Eclipse to see why I don't like Arnel's voice and it finally came to me. When he's singing low in more of a natural voice he sounds fantastic. It's the times when he tries (which happens a lot in Eclipse) to sing higher that his voice sounds thin, he can't control it, and sounds like he's straining himself. There are some times when he's singing high when he sounds good the rocking section of She's A Mystery is a prime example because he seems to just let it rip; however, when he tries to sing high he doesn't sound well. I don't know if he's trying to sing what he physically can't sing or if they're telling him to try to sound like Perry, but it just doesn't work. Augeri didn't have the pipes to sing like Arnel does, but he knew his limitations and didn't let his voice harm the song.

Some good points in this post, although personally I think Revelation was far and away better than Eclipse. Whether we're expecting a "classic Journey sound" on this record or not, the songs just aren't very good. There's not one on there that makes me want to listen to it over and over again. That's unfortunate.

Opposite for me. I've been listening to Eclipse over and over since it came out. I'm far from bored with it. Revelation, I put away long before this one. I still break out
Revelation once in awhile, but Eclipse is much more enduring for me. It really gets my blood pumping sometimes.

[jestor92]

The album flopped because the album isn't very good. People say because of lack of promotion which to a point I agree with, but how much more publicity did they get for Revelation? That album sucked and I think that album hurt this albums sales some what. My reason for that is because if you're a casual fan and you see a package of a band that has 1 cd of new music, 1 of GH, and a dvd you go to listen to the package and the album of new music is lackluster, you're not going to go back and purchase the next album that the band released especially if it doesn't have any kind of cool packaging to help sell it. Also R\realistically who is going to promote an album that doesn't have 1 quality single on it? Hell I have a hard time trying to find 2 good songs on the album and I've tried.

The Pro's of the album:

Musically it's a very solid record. Quite possibly the best (musically and experimentally) they've done since Trial By Fire.
Chain of Love is a bad ass song.

The Con's of the album:

Calling the packaging a joke would be a compliment.
Most of the songs on the album can't be saved by the music alone. Lyrics are horrid or...
Arnel's voice kills some of the songs.
Nothing on the album jumps out and makes you want to go "Wow that was a great song, let me hear that again."

I might be called an Arnel basher, but I went back and listened to Revelation and then listened to Eclipse to see why I don't like Arnel's voice and it finally came to me. When he's singing low in more of a natural voice he sounds fantastic. It's the times when he tries (which happens a lot in Eclipse) to sing higher that his voice sounds thin, he can't control it, and sounds like he's straining himself. There are some times when he's singing high when he sounds good the rocking section of She's A Mystery is a prime example because he seems to just let it rip; however, when he tries to sing high he doesn't sound well. I don't know if he's trying to sing what he physically can't sing or if they're telling him to try to sound like Perry, but it just doesn't work. Augeri didn't have the pipes to sing like Arnel does, but he knew his limitations and didn't let his voice harm the song.

Some good points in this post, although personally I think Revelation was far and away better than Eclipse. Whether we're expecting a "classic Journey sound" on this record or not, the songs just aren't very good. There's not one on there that makes me want to listen to it over and over again. That's unfortunate.

I think Eclipse is better than Revelation.

I'm a fan of hearing Schon rip it up on the guitar, but the cheesetastic lyrics kill the songs and Arnel singing in a register he shouldn't be doesn't help. I count 1 very good song on the album (Chain Of Love), 2 above average songs (City Of Hope, She's A Mystery), and a bunch of either average or filler tracks.

[Gideon]

but the cheesetastic lyrics kill the songs

Are you sure you're not actually listening to For the Love of Strange Medicine? Given the amount of lyrical schlock that can be found in Journey's catalog, I'm surprised you think Eclipse is subpar in the writing department. For my tastes, it explores territory in ways that old!Journey never tried.

[Don]

On the first day of the U.S. tour, Eclipse is at #93 on Wal-Mart's in store best sellers. That's like 100 copies or less a week, WTF?
Foreigner's Can't Slow Down is at #91.
The Manila DVD is at #24, Yes is at #46 at Def Leppard is at#7.

To put it into perspective, Most Wal-Mart exclusives that don't make the Top 10 on the instore list aren't even on Billboard's charts. To be #93 on the start of your tour almost sounds like your discs have been sent back to store room or something, it makes no sense at all.

[Archetype]

Some of the French fans complained about the lack of songs from Revelation and how the band lost the crowd a bit while playing the new songs. I think we can say that the top act for the Euro tour was more or less Foreigner. They recieved great reviews pretty much every gig, where Journey had issues either with sound, monitors that no one could see or setlist questions pretty much the whole time in Europe.

I may not have been a big fan of Revelation but I did say early on here that they should include at least one song on their setlist from that album. It did move 800k copies, time to give it a little respect, at least live.

800K divided by 2

A single disc that sold half made exactly the same amount of money. RIAA smoke and mirrors. Still it sold well, but the certification thing doesn't make anyone extra money.

Wrong. Revelation moved 800k separate packages and the RIAA smoke & mirrors boosted it to 1.6 million sales; hence the platinum award.

[annie89509]

I'm with the ytguy...every subsequent lead singer has been touted as having more of a "rockier" edge than SP "ever has." I can understand as relates to JSS...and if we're talking about SP's later vocal years...but SP sang some fabulous rock, high-tempo songs (KOR is a personal favorite).

I guess music perception is really in the ears of the beholder. I think SA's voice was too thin to really rock, and while AP has the power, he doesn't have the voice control that SP had when it comes to singing the "rockier" songs. As many have said, if Journey really wanted to "rock", JSS was their man.