Amy Winehouse is dead

[steveo777]

At times I feel as though the world and the universe has to be on purpose just by the sheer scope of the 'perfection' of things, the order....but at other times i wonder to what end? The 'god' depicted in scripture, and by know-it-alls paints a very sad story. How could a 'god' allow what goes on in the world today? Why would he allow that terrorist bombing, or 9/11....or even what happened to that little Anthony girl? I read all sorts of quantum physics/mechanics books, astrophysics books...and when you actually read just how ordered things are, like being at the precise distance from the sun to sustain life, as well as being the exact size - it kind of makes you wonder. I think about this all the time, and am often sad that I won't be around when someone finally pulls back the curtain......

Man, that was a heavy, deep post. I feel what you said. I go through the same thoughts sometimes. But what I don't understand is where the moral compass
of the good people comes from and where the minority bad seeds come from. I do believe that most people are good and a smaller, but majority number
strive for common good of all.

[S2M]

This is my problem....the First Law Of Thermodynamics, Conservation of Energy, states that energy can neither be created, nor destroyed....it can only change states. For instance, potential energy to kinetic. Which kinda sounds like a bunch of gases and shit just floating around in the ether(potential) until the infamous Big Bang(kinetic)....but what was the catalyst that acted upon the potential energy to allow it to change states to the kinetic? And just how do you explain the amount of mass that encompasses the ENTIRE universe from just a cloud of stellar dust? Matter can't be created, nor destroyed either(Conservation of Mass)....its pretty heady, theoretical stuff.....

And some physicists think it was a singularity, not a cloud of gas. And that is even weirder....but when you think that at the end of some sun's lives that end in black holes - the end result is a singularly, a singularity of infinite density and mass. Imagine something the size of a grape with the mass, density, and gravitational properties of the sun! In that case, imagine the Big Bang as the death of a star.....in reverse. Mind-boggling.

[BobbyinTN]

What a fuckin' waste. She was beyond talented and just threw it away. I feel bad for her family and those that loved her, but clearly she loved no one but herself and her drugs.

[Rip Rokken]

If an angel gives me a blowjob, is it still considered sex?

Angels have mated with human women before, according to Genesis. With no sex in Heaven, it was fated to happen eventually. Shore leave?

[Rip Rokken]

So you believe in hell? I kinda liked Amy. Sang a good song, never hurt anyone other than herself. Let's hope she found the light eh?

I believe in God and I believe there is a hell. We have a choice. That is what I believe.

"Turn or Burn" doesnt sound like much of a free choice.

[DrFU]

RIP Amy ... sometimes the demons just ... win

[Peartree12249]

Saw this on Yahoo today I agree totally with everything he said.

Since her death, many celebrities have tweeted their sorrow, but Russell Brand, who knew her well before she achieved stardom, wrote what may have been the lengthiest celebrity euology to date. He duly noted her gift for "good banter" but talked about how difficult it was to forge a true connection with Winehouse. "All addicts, regardless of the substance or their social status share a consistent and obvious symptom; they're not quite present when you talk to them. They communicate to you through a barely discernible but un-ignorable veil. Whether a homeless smack head troubling you for 50p for a cup of tea or a coked-up, pinstriped exec foaming off about his ‘speedboat' there is a toxic aura that prevents connection. They have about them the air of elsewhere, that they're looking through you to somewhere else they'd rather be. And of course they are. The priority of any addict is to anaesthetise the pain of living to ease the passage of the day with some purchased relief."
Added Brand, "Whether this tragedy was preventable or not is now irrelevant. It is not preventable today. We have lost a beautiful and talented woman to this disease. Not all addicts have Amy's incredible talent. Or Kurt's or Jimi's or Janis's; some people just get the affliction. All we can do is adapt the way we view this condition, not as crime or a romantic affectation but as a disease that will kill." And one that, from all indications, murdered her art five years before it took her life.

[Rip Rokken]

At times I feel as though the world and the universe has to be on purpose just by the sheer scope of the 'perfection' of things, the order....but at other times i wonder to what end? The 'god' depicted in scripture, and by know-it-alls paints a very sad story. How could a 'god' allow what goes on in the world today? Why would he allow that terrorist bombing, or 9/11....or even what happened to that little Anthony girl? I read all sorts of quantum physics/mechanics books, astrophysics books...and when you actually read just how ordered things are, like being at the precise distance from the sun to sustain life, as well as being the exact size - it kind of makes you wonder. I think about this all the time, and am often sad that I won't be around when someone finally pulls back the curtain......

Man, that was a heavy, deep post. I feel what you said. I go through the same thoughts sometimes. But what I don't understand is where the moral compass
of the good people comes from and where the minority bad seeds come from. I do believe that most people are good and a smaller, but majority number
strive for common good of all.

It doesn't come from the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, who also expects credit for every good thing that we do. This god had no respect for the sanctity of human life at all.

1 Samuel 6 - the original text claims God slayed 50,700 in the town of Bethshemesh in a "great slaughter" for looking into the Ark of the Covenant -- some translations say it was only 70, because no way there were that many people in that small town, but that interpretation is not in context with the passage.

Numbers 31: 7-15 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

How convenient!



And those were just the enemies of Jehovah -- this is how he treated his own followers:

Numbers 15:32-36 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Or how about this guy who out of reflex tried to protect the Ark of the Covenant from falling to the ground?

2 Samuel 6:6-7 And when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the Lord was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

Is this a moral, fair or just creature?

[fredinator]

I think I read that she was mentally ill and wouldn't take her medication. Heartbreaking really. I read in the paper today a quote by the creative director of SXSW (Brent Grulke) where "he recalls seeing Winehouse in a hotel ballroom at a music industry event in France in January 2007. Already popular in Great Britain, but still relatively unknown in the US, the young singer's performance convinced Grulke and SXSW managing director Roland Swenson to book her for the Austin festival. 'There's a certain kind of charisma that the most compelling artists have; they kind of demand that you pay attention to them.' Booking her 'wasn't a difficult decision for us at all.'" Goodbye Amy--you will be missed...

[SteveForever]

What a fuckin' waste. She was beyond talented and just threw it away. I feel bad for her family and those that loved her, but clearly she loved no one but herself and her drugs.

I can't even get off coffee so I can't imagine what a drug addiction is like When the brain changes what can we do? best to never ever try them in the first place but sad for those that really can't help it.

[scarygirl]

At times I feel as though the world and the universe has to be on purpose just by the sheer scope of the 'perfection' of things, the order....but at other times i wonder to what end? The 'god' depicted in scripture, and by know-it-alls paints a very sad story. How could a 'god' allow what goes on in the world today? Why would he allow that terrorist bombing, or 9/11....or even what happened to that little Anthony girl? I read all sorts of quantum physics/mechanics books, astrophysics books...and when you actually read just how ordered things are, like being at the precise distance from the sun to sustain life, as well as being the exact size - it kind of makes you wonder. I think about this all the time, and am often sad that I won't be around when someone finally pulls back the curtain......

Man, that was a heavy, deep post. I feel what you said. I go through the same thoughts sometimes. But what I don't understand is where the moral compass
of the good people comes from and where the minority bad seeds come from. I do believe that most people are good and a smaller, but majority number
strive for common good of all.

It doesn't come from the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, who also expects credit for every good thing that we do. This god had no respect for the sanctity of human life at all.

1 Samuel 6 - the original text claims God slayed 50,700 in the town of Bethshemesh in a "great slaughter" for looking into the Ark of the Covenant -- some translations say it was only 70, because no way there were that many people in that small town, but that interpretation is not in context with the passage.

Numbers 31: 7-15 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

How convenient!



And those were just the enemies of Jehovah -- this is how he treated his own followers:

Numbers 15:32-36 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Or how about this guy who out of reflex tried to protect the Ark of the Covenant from falling to the ground?

2 Samuel 6:6-7 And when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the Lord was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

Is this a moral, fair or just creature?

I found this site an interesting read in regard to your argument of a violent God.

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/bible-questions/answer01082-why-is-god-so-violent-in-the-old-testamentt.html

[Behshad]

At times I feel as though the world and the universe has to be on purpose just by the sheer scope of the 'perfection' of things, the order....but at other times i wonder to what end? The 'god' depicted in scripture, and by know-it-alls paints a very sad story. How could a 'god' allow what goes on in the world today? Why would he allow that terrorist bombing, or 9/11....or even what happened to that little Anthony girl? I read all sorts of quantum physics/mechanics books, astrophysics books...and when you actually read just how ordered things are, like being at the precise distance from the sun to sustain life, as well as being the exact size - it kind of makes you wonder. I think about this all the time, and am often sad that I won't be around when someone finally pulls back the curtain......

So you basically say there isnt a God simply cause there's good AND evil in this world? So if there was a God everything would have to be PERFECT?
God doesnt allow or prevent things. Humans do. Mother nature does. He created a world where he gave us one important thing, the human brain. Some use it more and some use it less. Some never use it at all (Steveo ) We have managed to created many useful things for our living but also many harmful things. harmful to us, to our kid and to our world.
You can not put the blame of actions taken by human on God.
Were you expecting God to step in and create a shield around twin towers ? and pick those planes and put them down gently then smack the terrorists and send them to the corner for a week?

[artist4perry]

At times I feel as though the world and the universe has to be on purpose just by the sheer scope of the 'perfection' of things, the order....but at other times i wonder to what end? The 'god' depicted in scripture, and by know-it-alls paints a very sad story. How could a 'god' allow what goes on in the world today? Why would he allow that terrorist bombing, or 9/11....or even what happened to that little Anthony girl? I read all sorts of quantum physics/mechanics books, astrophysics books...and when you actually read just how ordered things are, like being at the precise distance from the sun to sustain life, as well as being the exact size - it kind of makes you wonder. I think about this all the time, and am often sad that I won't be around when someone finally pulls back the curtain......

Man, that was a heavy, deep post. I feel what you said. I go through the same thoughts sometimes. But what I don't understand is where the moral compass
of the good people comes from and where the minority bad seeds come from. I do believe that most people are good and a smaller, but majority number
strive for common good of all.

It doesn't come from the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, who also expects credit for every good thing that we do. This god had no respect for the sanctity of human life at all.

1 Samuel 6 - the original text claims God slayed 50,700 in the town of Bethshemesh in a "great slaughter" for looking into the Ark of the Covenant -- some translations say it was only 70, because no way there were that many people in that small town, but that interpretation is not in context with the passage.

Numbers 31: 7-15 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

How convenient!



And those were just the enemies of Jehovah -- this is how he treated his own followers:

Numbers 15:32-36 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Or how about this guy who out of reflex tried to protect the Ark of the Covenant from falling to the ground?

2 Samuel 6:6-7 And when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the Lord was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

Is this a moral, fair or just creature?

Complex situations for sure Rip, and you know I love you to death as a friend. Don't be so quick to judge God. There is a deeper story to be had. For # one as for the oxen stumbling they had disobeyed God. They were told to carry it a certain way, not on a cart with Oxen. The people had basically turned their back on God and ignored what he had told them. It is much more complex than your making it. As for the people ordered to be put to death, do you know what kind of people they were? Cannibalistic, cruel, sacrificing children, child molesters, etc.......... Kind of helps to get the whole story.

Look I respect anyone's right not to believe. But there is more about God than you will read quickly in the bible. It takes study for a long time.

Now as for the New Testament and how we are to live today... Do you have a problem with people who are to be peace loving, good citizens, good husbands, wives, and children. Being fair to others, loving to others, putting others above yourself? I am not perfect, but do you have a great deal of problem with the way I am? Just saying, there is more to it. I am not trying to convert anyone, just saying if you want to see the worst in God, and not see the good. You find what you seek. But you miss the point of him entirely.

[Michigan Girl]

Huge talent, huge loss ...somebody/s loved this girl!!

[Duncan]

At times I feel as though the world and the universe has to be on purpose just by the sheer scope of the 'perfection' of things, the order....but at other times i wonder to what end? The 'god' depicted in scripture, and by know-it-alls paints a very sad story. How could a 'god' allow what goes on in the world today? Why would he allow that terrorist bombing, or 9/11....or even what happened to that little Anthony girl? I read all sorts of quantum physics/mechanics books, astrophysics books...and when you actually read just how ordered things are, like being at the precise distance from the sun to sustain life, as well as being the exact size - it kind of makes you wonder. I think about this all the time, and am often sad that I won't be around when someone finally pulls back the curtain......

Man, that was a heavy, deep post. I feel what you said. I go through the same thoughts sometimes. But what I don't understand is where the moral compass
of the good people comes from and where the minority bad seeds come from. I do believe that most people are good and a smaller, but majority number
strive for common good of all.

It doesn't come from the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, who also expects credit for every good thing that we do. This god had no respect for the sanctity of human life at all.

1 Samuel 6 - the original text claims God slayed 50,700 in the town of Bethshemesh in a "great slaughter" for looking into the Ark of the Covenant -- some translations say it was only 70, because no way there were that many people in that small town, but that interpretation is not in context with the passage.

Numbers 31: 7-15 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

How convenient!



And those were just the enemies of Jehovah -- this is how he treated his own followers:

Numbers 15:32-36 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Or how about this guy who out of reflex tried to protect the Ark of the Covenant from falling to the ground?

2 Samuel 6:6-7 And when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the Lord was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

Is this a moral, fair or just creature?

Complex situations for sure Rip, and you know I love you to death as a friend. Don't be so quick to judge God. There is a deeper story to be had. For # one as for the oxen stumbling they had disobeyed God. They were told to carry it a certain way, not on a cart with Oxen. The people had basically turned their back on God and ignored what he had told them. It is much more complex than your making it. As for the people ordered to be put to death, do you know what kind of people they were? Cannibalistic, cruel, sacrificing children, child molesters, etc.......... Kind of helps to get the whole story.

Look I respect anyone's right not to believe. But there is more about God than you will read quickly in the bible. It takes study for a long time.

Now as for the New Testament and how we are to live today... Do you have a problem with people who are to be peace loving, good citizens, good husbands, wives, and children. Being fair to others, loving to others, putting others above yourself? I am not perfect, but do you have a great deal of problem with the way I am? Just saying, there is more to it. I am not trying to convert anyone, just saying if you want to see the worst in God, and not see the good. You find what you seek. But you miss the point of him entirely.

You don't need a god or a religion to be a good person. To quote Steven Weinberg "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. "

[portland]

Huge talent, huge loss ...somebody/s loved this girl!!

Yes her Mom who has MS and her Dad, they have pleaded many times in the media for her to stop..she could not.
.and I see it all the time the drugs are in control not anyone else..it does not become a choice.


So Sad...she was very talented...but tormented.

[artist4perry]

At times I feel as though the world and the universe has to be on purpose just by the sheer scope of the 'perfection' of things, the order....but at other times i wonder to what end? The 'god' depicted in scripture, and by know-it-alls paints a very sad story. How could a 'god' allow what goes on in the world today? Why would he allow that terrorist bombing, or 9/11....or even what happened to that little Anthony girl? I read all sorts of quantum physics/mechanics books, astrophysics books...and when you actually read just how ordered things are, like being at the precise distance from the sun to sustain life, as well as being the exact size - it kind of makes you wonder. I think about this all the time, and am often sad that I won't be around when someone finally pulls back the curtain......

Man, that was a heavy, deep post. I feel what you said. I go through the same thoughts sometimes. But what I don't understand is where the moral compass
of the good people comes from and where the minority bad seeds come from. I do believe that most people are good and a smaller, but majority number
strive for common good of all.

It doesn't come from the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, who also expects credit for every good thing that we do. This god had no respect for the sanctity of human life at all.

1 Samuel 6 - the original text claims God slayed 50,700 in the town of Bethshemesh in a "great slaughter" for looking into the Ark of the Covenant -- some translations say it was only 70, because no way there were that many people in that small town, but that interpretation is not in context with the passage.

Numbers 31: 7-15 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

How convenient!



And those were just the enemies of Jehovah -- this is how he treated his own followers:

Numbers 15:32-36 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Or how about this guy who out of reflex tried to protect the Ark of the Covenant from falling to the ground?

2 Samuel 6:6-7 And when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the Lord was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

Is this a moral, fair or just creature?

Complex situations for sure Rip, and you know I love you to death as a friend. Don't be so quick to judge God. There is a deeper story to be had. For # one as for the oxen stumbling they had disobeyed God. They were told to carry it a certain way, not on a cart with Oxen. The people had basically turned their back on God and ignored what he had told them. It is much more complex than your making it. As for the people ordered to be put to death, do you know what kind of people they were? Cannibalistic, cruel, sacrificing children, child molesters, etc.......... Kind of helps to get the whole story.

Look I respect anyone's right not to believe. But there is more about God than you will read quickly in the bible. It takes study for a long time.

Now as for the New Testament and how we are to live today... Do you have a problem with people who are to be peace loving, good citizens, good husbands, wives, and children. Being fair to others, loving to others, putting others above yourself? I am not perfect, but do you have a great deal of problem with the way I am? Just saying, there is more to it. I am not trying to convert anyone, just saying if you want to see the worst in God, and not see the good. You find what you seek. But you miss the point of him entirely.

You don't need a god or a religion to be a good person. To quote Steven Weinberg "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. "

Bullcrap. Not all religions condone bad behavior. As a matter of fact a person doing evil in the name of God is a hypocrite, not a follower. Plain and simple. I did not say all good people had to be religious people. But if you are doing Gods will then you should be striving to be good. Not perfect.

[ebake02]

How did this turn into a religious discussion? Turning Amy Winehouse into religion is pretty big leap.

[artist4perry]

How did this turn into a religious discussion? Turning Amy Winehouse into religion is pretty big leap.

\

Ever know a discussion that doesn't derail here from time to time? LOL I was just responding mostly to Rip, not so much trying to be negative but giving a different perspective. I have had my say and I will drop my part. Don't want to dwell on it anymore.

[AR]

I can give you all certifiable proof of the existence of God. If there wasn't one fast food and beer would be good for you and awful tasting vegetables would be loaded with cholesterol.

[ebake02]

How did this turn into a religious discussion? Turning Amy Winehouse into religion is pretty big leap.

\

Ever know a discussion that doesn't derail here from time to time? LOL I was just responding mostly to Rip, not so much trying to be negative but giving a different perspective. I have had my say and I will drop my part. Don't want to dwell on it anymore.

I was just curious

[artist4perry]

How did this turn into a religious discussion? Turning Amy Winehouse into religion is pretty big leap.

\

Ever know a discussion that doesn't derail here from time to time? LOL I was just responding mostly to Rip, not so much trying to be negative but giving a different perspective. I have had my say and I will drop my part. Don't want to dwell on it anymore.

I was just curious

Well your right. Don't want to get into a hate fest over differences of thought.

[Rip Rokken]

Is this a moral, fair or just creature?

I found this site an interesting read in regard to your argument of a violent God.

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/bible-questions/answer01082-why-is-god-so-violent-in-the-old-testamentt.html

I appreciate the link, but sadly found nothing new. Most defenses of God or the Bible quote only God and the Bible to do it, presented as absolute truth and of the highest authority. It's really like saying, "Rod Blagojevich isn't guilty of corruption because in his testimony last Wednesday, 3:30pm, he stated that he was innocent of all charges." Many defenses or explanations are also non-falsifiable, meaning they are presented in a way that are not capable of being tested or disproven. An example is answering the question "Who created God?" with "Nobody - God is eternal, and exists outside the realm of space and time."

Now I found it interesting that they started off with this:

"Bible Answer: There are multiple issues to address. We will start with an often ignored fact about God's character and then conclude with an unpleasant truth.
God's Character Does Not Change. The most serious issue is that your friend's perception of the character of God is not accurate. Therefore, lets start with Malachi 3:6. This verse occurs in the last book of the Old Testament, in the book of Malachi.

For I, the LORD, do not change . . . Mal. 3:6 (NASB)"

That's rather unsettling... the first thing that came to my mind was the phrase, "Once an a______, always an a______".

One thing that is common to many of the theocratic religions, as well as cults, sects, etc, is the claim for absolute authority, and the heavy use of fear to discourage questioning or disobedience. It's always a red flag.

Still, there is at least one place in the Bible where it appears testing God is permissible, even admirable:

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

When I was a believer, I never considered it a bad thing for unbelievers to test to see whether it "worked" or not, as long as it wasn't in the way Satan tempted Christ (to jump from a great height knowing God would send angels to rescue him). When witnessing, many people are encouraged to just "try God" and see for themselves, right? I thought God was bulletproof in that area and would always come thru, but time for me at least proved otherwise.

I got off on another point but it's a good one -- If God is who he says he is, God should not fear being tested, and therefore Christians should not fear Christianity being tested. And it's not a valid defense to use the source to prove itself.

[ebake02]

How did this turn into a religious discussion? Turning Amy Winehouse into religion is pretty big leap.

\

Ever know a discussion that doesn't derail here from time to time? LOL I was just responding mostly to Rip, not so much trying to be negative but giving a different perspective. I have had my say and I will drop my part. Don't want to dwell on it anymore.

I was just curious

Well your right. Don't want to get into a hate fest over differences of thought.

When they're not hate fests those derailed discussions can be quite entertaining.

[Rip Rokken]

But if you are doing Gods will then you should be striving to be good. Not perfect.

I'm answering out of sequence and I'm not trying to nitpick at all -- it just brings up a good topic. This is one of the paradoxes of Christianity, which teaches that anything of our own effort is worthless, and that our righteousness is as filthy rags compared to God. We are totally depraved and incapable of doing any good whatsoever. Supposedly any useful good that comes out of us (things that count in the end) is thru the exercise of the Holy Spirit acting thru us, in union with us -- not just obedience to rules or even going by our own natural sense of right and wrong. Technically, we can't strive to do good -- we can only strive to remain broken enough so that God can act out thru us. I don't think most churches teach this in depth because they don't really understand it, but it's absolutely scriptural, especially clear in Paul's letters.

[artist4perry]

But if you are doing Gods will then you should be striving to be good. Not perfect.

I'm answering out of sequence and I'm not trying to nitpick at all -- it just brings up a good topic. This is one of the paradoxes of Christianity, which teaches that anything of our own effort is worthless, and that our righteousness is as filthy rags compared to God. We are totally depraved and incapable of doing any good whatsoever. Supposedly any useful good that comes out of us (things that count in the end) is thru the exercise of the Holy Spirit acting thru us, in union with us -- not just obedience to rules or even going by our own natural sense of right and wrong. Technically, we can't strive to do good -- we can only strive to remain broken enough so that God can act out thru us. I don't think most churches teach this in depth because they don't really understand it, but it's absolutely scriptural, especially clear in Paul's letters.

I don't think I can be perfect in any way. But striving to do good? Can't we do that? We choose weather to rob an old lady who drops her purse, or to pick up the contents and give it to her. Is that a choice or are we robots? I do believe it is a choice to do good or not. We are given the choice to live right or not. Just the way I look at it. My spirituality is just a part of me. I choose to do it God's way because I want to. Hard to explain Rip. I know some religions teach your either born good or bad. I disagree. I have never held the belief that you are predestined for heaven. Nor are you predestined to hell. Don't know if that makes sense to you.

[scarygirl]

How did this turn into a religious discussion? Turning Amy Winehouse into religion is pretty big leap.

\

Ever know a discussion that doesn't derail here from time to time? LOL I was just responding mostly to Rip, not so much trying to be negative but giving a different perspective. I have had my say and I will drop my part. Don't want to dwell on it anymore.

I was just curious

Guilty. I made an off hand comment hoping that Amy had a relationship with the lord.

[Rip Rokken]

Complex situations for sure Rip, and you know I love you to death as a friend.

I love you, too! And please understand, even if it seems this way, I'm not out to make fun of faith or make light of anyone that has it. I came from a lifetime of experience in faith, so I fully understand and relate to the point of view. I really have zero problems with people believing in Christ and the Christian faith because I know for a fact that the belief in Christ can change lives for the better -- it gives hope, and many (but unfortunately not all) of the teachings of Christ lead to a better life experience. Losing my faith was the most difficult thing I've ever gone thru in my life, and it was involuntary -- it just started crumbling despite all my spiritual kicking and screaming to maintain it. I was born with a very analytic, logical nature (again, not by choice), and eventually the inconsistencies in my experience with Christ combined with the improbabilities of the answers given to explain them mounted to the point that I could not ignore them anymore. Take the Christian couple who watches in horror as their 3-year old daughter gets pinned underneath a moving car and is killed. "We don't know why God allows these things to happen, only that we need to take comfort that He has a plan and something beyond our imagination waiting for us in the future. We just need to trust Him."



Those answers are designed to keep us from thinking and using our minds, and get us to deny our gut instincts which we rely on in every other facet of our existence to protect us. I finally figured out that Satan was nothing more than my gut instinct telling me something was fishy.

So anyway, please know I mean no disrespect and love Christians to death - have no problems with anyone being a Christian, and I can say with truth I've never tried to discourage anyone from their faith. I wouldn't want anyone to go thru what I did, lol. And maybe I'm wrong in thinking I can compartmentalize the discussion, lol, but once I get going about God I have a hard time shutting up. Most of my Christian friends tell me that the conversation only strengthens their faith, and that pleases me immensely. I still try to take it easy on them.

Actually, there is one case where I would try to "persuade" someone to rethink faith, and that is if their beliefs were hurting themselves or others... and unfortunately there are plenty of people in our world who fall into that category.

Don't be so quick to judge God. There is a deeper story to be had. For # one as for the oxen stumbling they had disobeyed God. They were told to carry it a certain way, not on a cart with Oxen. The people had basically turned their back on God and ignored what he had told them. It is much more complex than your making it.

Why must he be so dang nitpicky with all the rules and regs in the first place? He even admits that the law was designed so that NO man could possibly keep it. The natural Christian answer to the question is exactly that - that the goal was to prove man incapable of saving himself without the coming Savior. But forget that for a second -- my question is from a psychological point of view... what kind of psyche has such an all encompassing need for control over their creation? If you think of God as a person, it honestly paints a very disturbing picture. Christianity has to defend God by divorcing him from human attributes, or claiming that we have no way of understanding them. (e.g., Q: "God killed thousands in anger, how could He be infinitely merciful and loving?" A: It shows that we don't really understand mercy or love"). But on the flipside, when it comes to trying to attract us to God, his "human" attributes are always touted to attract us. How could we love someone we couldn't relate to on any level?

As for the people ordered to be put to death, do you know what kind of people they were? Cannibalistic, cruel, sacrificing children, child molesters, etc.......... Kind of helps to get the whole story.

I haven't heard that about the Midianites before, and it sounds like something that came out of an apologetics book. Apologeticists are the "Spin Doctors of the Faith", and would be awesome defense attorneys for the Maffia. But most (maybe all) of those traits can also describe God and his own people. Cruelty... I could write a book on that one alone. Sacrificing children? How about Judges 11, which tells the tale of Jephthah, who promised that if God would give him a victory in battle, he'd sacrifice the first thing that came out of his door to greet him when he got home.

30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

OOPS!!! That vow was about as helpful as a wish made on the Monkey's Paw...

34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break.”

36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”

38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

And God allowed this to happen?!? Of course, this is the same guy who had Abraham poised with knife held high above his own son to prove his loyalty. And back to the Midianites for a second -- if they were really that horrible, why did he allow them to save the virgins for themselves? Didn't they eat people and abuse their kids, too?

Look I respect anyone's right not to believe. But there is more about God than you will read quickly in the bible. It takes study for a long time.

I read all the good stuff first, glazed over and dismissed anything troubling, then compared it to my own experience. In the end, it's really our experience that matters the most -- I couldn't keep going thru life blaming myself for the fact that the Bible's promises from God (especially regarding spiritual growth) were so hit-and-miss, if not rarely realized at all.

Now as for the New Testament and how we are to live today... Do you have a problem with people who are to be peace loving, good citizens, good husbands, wives, and children. Being fair to others, loving to others, putting others above yourself? I am not perfect, but do you have a great deal of problem with the way I am? Just saying, there is more to it. I am not trying to convert anyone, just saying if you want to see the worst in God, and not see the good. You find what you seek. But you miss the point of him entirely.

I don't have any problems with you or any Christian (or any person otherwise) who are those types - I'd be in Utopia if I could live surrounded by people like that. I've come to realize that God is not necessary for people to be that way - for many, it comes natural. More often than not people create God in their own images. Hateful, angry, or bitter people (if they believe in God) tends to view God as the same (think Fred Phelps). Peaceful, loving, and merciful people envision that type of God.

I grew up in a Christian household, and the few really decent things about me I attribute to the influence of Christian faith. But since leaving faith behind, I'm the same person, probably even a bit better. I feel like I value human life much more (mine as well), and I approach life much differently than I did when I considered it just a "whisper" that I shouldn't treasure. I definitely respect differences in others a whole lot more than I did when I saw people as being "deviant" or "sinful" in their lives or beliefs. Didn't matter if I loved them in spite of those things or not -- inside I saw them as "wrong" because of what I'd been taught based on the law of God. Now I find people fascinating, and just love and enjoy them for who they are as long as they are good people -- it's really freeing.

One of the biggest confirmations to me personally that there is no divine being in charge, is the absolute wreck which we call Christendom today. It's no shining city on a hill, and there is zilcho quality control from the Almighty inside his own religion -- everything goes without supernatural intervention, and we are taught to believe that it will all be dealt with in one fell swoop when he returns. There are plenty of great Christians in the world, but even the Mormons cohesively have a better appearance and quality of character than Christianity as a whole. If God was real, everyone would want some of him. He'd be a hotter high than crack cocaine, everyone would believe the same thing, and everyone's lives would change for the better and stay better. Christianity would have the monopoly on good deeds and charity in the world, but that's not the case either. Instead, some of the biggest and greatest work is done by secular gazillionaires who just want to give back.

I love that you are a Christian, and if I was still one myself I would tell you that I could see Christ in you - you're one of the good ones. Me, I'd go back to believing in a heartbeat if I could, but I don't think it's possible. It's taken some time, but life without God has actually turned out to be pretty fulfilling though.

[artist4perry]

Rip, I don't see things the way you see them. And call me the optimist I guess. I see God loving me he gave his own son for my salvation. Everyone as a matter of fact. And if I could I would sit down and discuss point by point with you. But I am not as good at these discussions as Daniel. He has a better way of explaining things. I just personally am sad you have lost your faith.

But will always care about you my friend. I know we can see differently and still be wonderful friends. That is what I treasure in you as well. I think Dan may want to get into this deeper with you.

I just don't see God as evil. Can he get angry? Yes. Does he take vengeance? Yes. But does he love? Without a doubt, and with more than I think I am even capable of. Does he care? Absolutely. Is he there for me? Always. Even when I wanted to cut my wrists years ago his love stopped me. Through the worst parts of my life he has been there for me. I am a stronger person because of it. It can be that way for anyone.

[Rip Rokken]

Rip, I don't see things the way you see them. And call me the optimist I guess. I see God loving me he gave his own son for my salvation. Everyone as a matter of fact. And if I could I would sit down and discuss point by point with you. But I am not as good at these discussions as Daniel. He has a better way of explaining things. I just personally am sad you have lost your faith.

But will always care about you my friend. I know we can see differently and still be wonderful friends. That is what I treasure in you as well. I think Dan may want to get into this deeper with you.

I just don't see God as evil. Can he get angry? Yes. Does he take vengeance? Yes. But does he love? Without a doubt, and with more than I think I am even capable of. Does he care? Absolutely. Is he there for me? Always. Even when I wanted to cut my wrists years ago his love stopped me. Through the worst parts of my life he has been there for me. I am a stronger person because of it. It can be that way for anyone.

I'd love to talk with Dan sometime, but I usually keep it pretty light when I'm talking with Christian friends. I honestly have no desire to damage anyone's faith or cause anyone to question their own beliefs.

I have no problem with a vengeful God as long as he's sticking up for the little guy. There is a very long list of people who represent him in his own faith alone who have it coming to them, but for impact it should be done in a way that people in this age can see and recognize for what it is. Tie some little girl up on a tent for years and rape her daily? BIG fat lightning bolt should strike before they even lay the first hand on her. For God's sake Lord, give people a REASON to believe...

I know that when I was a believer, toward the end I was wracked with instinctual naggings about God's nature that I couldn't shake. They were really disturbing, and I sought help from our pastors to help me deal with them - unfortunately, it didn't. I was feeling like a pawn in a cosmological game of chess, and the whole glorious story of how God sent his son to die so that we wouldn't have to was losing a whole lot of gloss. Why create us in the first place knowing in his omniscience that the first two would fall, curse the rest of us, leading to scads of us burning in hell for eternity in unquenchable fire? Why sentence anyone to this type of eternal cruelty just for choosing to go it alone in life? Many of us are biologically wired for independence - just as the Bible tells us that married couples leave their father and mother to make their own way, we find the thought of an eternal father watching over our every move to be unappealing, and quite honestly, unnecessary. It's not a rebellion thing -- it's an adult thing. And this guy also demands love and worship. Why are those types of traits so disgusting in human behavior, yet glorious in God? And the answer can't be, "Because we aren't God." Killing is killing, cruelty is cruelty, vanity is vanity. We know in our own human relationships that they thrive when we concentrate first on doing for others instead of asking what they can do for us. We can trick ourselves into believing God has done many wonderful things for us (sending his Son, our jobs, the roof over our head, our families, our kids' little league team winning a tournament, etc.), but we also know that the best things done for others occur when you don't expect anything in return. That ain't the way God rolls -- there are major strings attached to that little "free gift", and he'd absolutely have more followers if he concentrated on doing great things for his creation whether they loved him back or not instead of demanding things from it ("or else"). This is "Love 101" - most of us know this thru in our rag-filthy, depraved little minds thru experience. I should send God a copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence People".

Every time I see some starving kid in Ghana dying from malnutrition and disease, with flies swarming around it's face, I know there isn't a loving God in charge.

I just read this in Numbers 25:

1 While Israel was staying in Shittim , the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate the sacrificial meal and bowed down before these gods. 3 So Israel yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor. And the LORD’s anger burned against them.

4 The LORD said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD, so that the LORD’s fierce anger may turn away from Israel.”

5 So Moses said to Israel’s judges, “Each of you must put to death those of your people who have yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor.”

6 Then an Israelite man brought into the camp a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8 and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear into both of them, right through the Israelite man and into the woman’s stomach. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; 9 but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000.

10 The LORD said to Moses, 11 “Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, has turned my anger away from the Israelites. Since he was as zealous for my honor among them as I am, I did not put an end to them in my zeal. 12 Therefore tell him I am making my covenant of peace with him. 13 He and his descendants will have a covenant of a lasting priesthood, because he was zealous for the honor of his God and made atonement for the Israelites.”

14 The name of the Israelite who was killed with the Midianite woman was Zimri son of Salu, the leader of a Simeonite family. 15 And the name of the Midianite woman who was put to death was Kozbi daughter of Zur, a tribal chief of a Midianite family.

16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them. 18 They treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the Peor incident involving their sister Kozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of that incident.”