Amy Winehouse is dead

by **Saint John** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:52 pm

I find it highly doubtful, illogical and borderline insane to think that some God created us, sent his kid down to Earth like Mork from Ork, had this dude savagely beaten and killed, and expects us to believe the ramblings of said son after he was nailed to a cross and killed ... never to be seen again. The resurrection bit is pure nonsense. Why actually be on Earth for one small period of time, never to be heard or seen again? And why would God create all of us and play this little game of peek-a-boo? Why the need to pray to him? Does he have poor self esteem or something? And why spend countless hours in church listening to 2,000 year old translations of a dead dude?

How about this ... just live your life and be decent. Help people, give a little, do your part and have some fucking balls ... balls enough to admit that you have no idea who or what God is or if he/she/it even exists. That's pretty much the camp I'm in. I didn't sign up to play his/her/it's little fucking game of church and prayer, and I play by my own rules. Those rules see me give to charity, donate a little time, try to make the world a little better, and act like a total asshole, occasionally, on this site. If that's good enough when I die, should I be "judged," then that's great. If not, oh well. But assuming to know the rules of the game from some magical creature in the sky and his supposed dead son just seems in-fucking-sane to me. My "faith" is in my mother, my family and my friends. Why? Because they're real, they're there for me always and they make my life what it is ... great. And if some God created them all, well then I'm extremely grateful. But if he expects me to figure all of this out he's shit out of luck, because I'm too busy living my life and appreciating and loving what I know to be true and real.

by **Rip Rokken** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:02 pm

Saint John wrote:I find it highly doubtful, illogical and borderline insane to think that some God created us, sent his kid down to Earth like Mork from Ork, had this dude savagely beaten and killed, and expects us to believe the ramblings of said son after he was nailed to a cross and killed ... never to be seen again. The resurrection bit is pure nonsense. Why actually be on Earth for one small period of time, never to be heard or seen again? And why would God create all of us and play this little game of peek-a-boo? Why the need to pray to him? Does he have poor self esteem or something? And why spend countless hours in church listening to 2,000 year old translations of a dead dude?

How about this ... just live your life and be decent. Help people, give a little, do your part and have some fucking balls ... balls enough to admit that you have no idea who or what God is or if he/she/it even exists. That's pretty much the camp I'm in. I didn't sign up to play his/her/it's little fucking game of church and prayer, and I play by my own rules. Those rules see me give to charity, donate a little time, try to make the world a little better, and act like a total asshole, occasionally, on this site. If that's good enough when I die, should I be "judged," then that's great. If not, oh well. But assuming to know the rules of the game from some magical creature in the sky and his supposed dead son just seems in-fucking-sane to me. My "faith" is in my mother, my family and my friends. Why? Because they're real, they're there for me always and they make my life what it is ... great. And if some God created them all, well then I'm extremely grateful. But if he expects me to figure all of this out he's shit out of luck, because I'm too busy living my life and appreciating and loving what I know to be true and real.

Lindsay Lohan spent more time in jail than the Son spent in Hell. If that slap on the wrist was supposed to atone for all the sins of mankind, then either someone has a judge in their pocket or I'm not half as bad as I think I am.

Website · by **steveo777** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:20 pm

Rip,

All one needs to do is go visit Bangladesh, the Philippines, India or North Korea and one soon realizes that God is not home and hasn't
been for a long time. Let me ask you, did your visit to the Philippines cement your current beliefs? I always felt you to be a Christian
and a generally good dude. The good dude part is still true. Just curious as to when you lost the faith. :wink:

by **Rip Rokken** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:37 pm

steveo777 wrote:Rip,

All one needs to do is go visit Bangladesh, the Philippines, India or North Korea and one soon realizes that God is not home and hasn't
been for a long time. Let me ask you, did your visit to the Philippines cement your current beliefs? I always felt you to be a Christian
and a generally good dude. The good dude part is still true. Just curious as to when you lost the faith.

Hey, Steve -

Thanks, man. I didn't really think much about God in the Philippines. What I saw there was such a mixture. There were the cities which were pretty amazing - especially Makati, which was ultra-modern and cool:

But when we got outside of town, aside from some beautiful landscapes and particular places we visited, some of the poverty was just gripping, with people living in shacks and stuff. The last time I'd seen anything like it was in Jamaica. Back in the city, I stayed closer to the Mall of Asia, while my friends were in a hotel deeper in downtown Manila. I think either them or someone else mentioned seeing older American tourists who would be walking with their arms around a couple of very young (apparently minor aged) prostitutes, and that kinda disgusted me. I never saw any of that luckily. One of my favorite places I'd duck into by myself was the shopping area behind our hotel. The hotel was excellent, but the strip was kinda seedy I guess you'd say. I was told it was a rough area and not to go there by myself, but that only increased my interest, lol. I had a blast back there, and stuff was SO CHEAP! I still wear a pair of legit leather Tommy Hilfiger sandals I bought for $2 - they cost $75 here, and they are still like brand new - very well made. There was a lot of poverty in this area, but everyone was so good-natured and friendly. They totally loved it when I asked if I could take their photos. This was one of my favorites:

The cracks in my faith had been starting to show for a year or so before I really got tested, when my best friend from the church I was attending got cancer. Long story short, this was happening at the same time Michael Sweet's wife's cancer returned (after they'd already announced that thanks to everyone's prayers, she'd been healed). The parallels were very similar - both my friend and her had thousands of people in different churches around the country praying for them, and both seemed to get a little better for a while, so everyone was rejoicing. Then things reversed course and went straight downhill. With us, I paid close attention to the changing patterns of prayer, which over time would keep dumbing down -- at first of course you pray for healing, then by the end, only that they will not suffer so much.

I'd already been joking with a few folks not to ask me to pray for them, because it seemed like the opposite of whatever I prayed for would come true, no matter how much faith I had. But in these cases, it caused me to take a really serious look and my faith started crumbling. People can say what they want about God's "mysterious ways", but I couldn't imagine any possible way that God could be glorified in these events. Why leave your church hanging out to dry in the faith department when they rejoice and praise you for a "miracle", only to yank the freakin' rug out from under their feet? How in God's name does this glorify God, or increase faith? In at least my case, he finally lost another follower. Not long after that, a few other Christian friends had horrible things happen to them. Both lost their homes, one in a fire, and one lost 3 together (theirs plus 2 rentals they owned in a cul-de-sac) during a tornado. Just senseless crap. That's why I came to grips with the realization that everything really seemed to be totally random, with no rhyme or reason, no pattern, nothing. I feared that the reason my prayers weren't being answered was because there wasn't really a wizard behind the curtain at all.

I couldn't deal with it, couldn't face it -- I just shut down and set my faith aside for another 2 years, except for the occasional prayer to God pleading for him to make himself real to me again, and to forgive me for my doubt. Nothing... nothing ever again. Anyway, during this time, I decided to just start enjoying life the best I could, and that's when I started traveling to see concerts. It really saved me during that time.

About a year ago, I was in a hotel room out of town, and realized that I finally had to face this whole issue and figure out what I believed. God hadn't showed up in any of that time, and I started doing some research on my laptop. I was shocked to find that there were so many others out there who had gone thru the same type of intense faith crisis, and had stories remarkably similar to my own. It was scary territory at first, because I'd avoided all this stuff fearing that I'd be giving Satan the opportunity to finish me off once and for all, ending any chance I might have of having my faith and relationship with God restored. The more I read though, the more relaxed I became, and convinced of my fears. At that point I had to face the fact that I could no longer believe, and discarded my Christian faith for good.

The next few months were very rough... I apparently went thru what someone told me were the stages of grief, just like I'd lost a loved one. It was a profound sense of sadness and emptiness, and I sat around staring at the walls. I didn't smile very much. But I got some encouragement from others who promised me it would get better, and it did, remarkably so. Just like when I was a Christian, I don't fear death, I don't worry about the future, and I'm actually valuing my life here on this planet and realizing the role I play in my own destiny -- my choices are much less hesitant as I don't have to wait around for vague and confusing signs from God telling me which way to go on major life choices -- I realize those are mine to make.

I've had some major life changes since then, and am going thru another right now, and I feel a whole lot better than I ever would have when I was in a Christian. Faith can take you on some hellacious emotional roller-coaster rides, and who needs that crap?

Outside of Christianity I realize what a fog my head had been regarding my beliefs. It's like a spell really, a bubble, a grand illusion, and once it pops it's amazing how clear all those once confusing things become. All of a sudden you can look at something like the Old Testament Jehovah and realize that he's nobody you'd ever want to be involved with, lol, instead of accepting without question the great leaps and twists of logic which explain and excuse his horrendous personality and treatment of his creation. Just another one of the petty and cruel tyrant gods that were popular at the time. He got an Extreme Makeover in the New Testament, and even that's not enough anymore to make him remotely appealing to me.

If God does exist and he is truly is exactly what the entire Bible portrays him to be, I'd want nothing to do with him based on that plus my lifetime of experience trying to follow "him".

by **slucero** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:45 pm

...if everyone would keep their faith to themselves (after all it is a one-on-one relationship)... then the world would likely be a better place... too many people have died and killed in the name of their God...

by **artist4perry** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:53 am

slucero wrote:...if everyone would keep their faith to themselves (after all it is a one-on-one relationship)... then the world would likely be a better place... too many people have died and killed in the name of their God...

This is the crock of crap I get so sick of. Someone claiming to be from God but doesn't live by his word is not a Christian. So if I killed blaming a Dog........Son of Sam................are all Dogs evil? You can kill in the name of anything to justify your behavior.

Rip, I would get into this deeper with you maybe someday when we can more one on one. But not here. I don't see setting here and arguing with folks for the sake of argument. I just don't see this being productive.

There are too many here ready to just bash my head in because they can and want to. That is not the same as you and I would discuss a topic among friends. At least you and I would not come out of it with bad feelings. I would still love you as a friend.

As for the topic, didn't bring it up, didn't want to. I still hold to my faith as stupid as some of you find me to be, and always will.

I just don't see him the way some of you do. Anyway best wishes to all of you! Enjoy your argument! :wink:

by **scarygirl** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:02 pm

artist4perry wrote:
slucero wrote:...if everyone would keep their faith to themselves (after all it is a one-on-one relationship)... then the world would likely be a better place... too many people have died and killed in the name of their God...

This is the crock of crap I get so sick of. Someone claiming to be from God but doesn't live by his word is not a Christian. So if I killed blaming a Dog........Son of Sam................are all Dogs evil? You can kill in the name of anything to justify your behavior.

Rip, I would get into this deeper with you maybe someday when we can more one on one. But not here. I don't see setting here and arguing with folks for the sake of argument. I just don't see this being productive.

There are too many here ready to just bash my head in because they can and want to. That is not the same as you and I would discuss a topic among friends. At least you and I would not come out of it with bad feelings. I would still love you as a friend.

As for the topic, didn't bring it up, didn't want to. I still hold to my faith as stupid as some of you find me to be, and always will.

I just don't see him the way some of you do. Anyway best wishes to all of you! Enjoy your argument!

I don't find you stupid at all.

And I respect Rip immensely. I am a little sadded though that he has lost faith, but I understand.

by **artist4perry** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:26 pm

scarygirl wrote:
artist4perry wrote:
slucero wrote:...if everyone would keep their faith to themselves (after all it is a one-on-one relationship)... then the world would likely be a better place... too many people have died and killed in the name of their God...

This is the crock of crap I get so sick of. Someone claiming to be from God but doesn't live by his word is not a Christian. So if I killed blaming a Dog........Son of Sam................are all Dogs evil? You can kill in the name of anything to justify your behavior.

Rip, I would get into this deeper with you maybe someday when we can more one on one. But not here. I don't see setting here and arguing with folks for the sake of argument. I just don't see this being productive.

There are too many here ready to just bash my head in because they can and want to. That is not the same as you and I would discuss a topic among friends. At least you and I would not come out of it with bad feelings. I would still love you as a friend.

As for the topic, didn't bring it up, didn't want to. I still hold to my faith as stupid as some of you find me to be, and always will.

I just don't see him the way some of you do. Anyway best wishes to all of you! Enjoy your argument!

I don't find you stupid at all. And I respect Rip immensely. I am a little sadded though that he has lost faith, but I understand.

Thanks SG. Rip is a fantastic person and a wonderful friend.

by **Moon Beam** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:32 pm

Rip Rokken wrote:
artist4perry wrote:Complex situations for sure Rip, and you know I love you to death as a friend.

I love you, too! And please understand, even if it seems this way, I'm not out to make fun of faith or make light of anyone that has it. I came from a lifetime of experience in faith, so I fully understand and relate to the point of view. I really have zero problems with people believing in Christ and the Christian faith because I know for a fact that the belief in Christ can change lives for the better -- it gives hope, and many (but unfortunately not all) of the teachings of Christ lead to a better life experience. Losing my faith was the most difficult thing I've ever gone thru in my life, and it was involuntary -- it just started crumbling despite all my spiritual kicking and screaming to maintain it. I was born with a very analytic, logical nature (again, not by choice), and eventually the inconsistencies in my experience with Christ combined with the improbabilities of the answers given to explain them mounted to the point that I could not ignore them anymore. Take the Christian couple who watches in horror as their 3-year old daughter gets pinned underneath a moving car and is killed. "We don't know why God allows these things to happen, only that we need to take comfort that He has a plan and something beyond our imagination waiting for us in the future. We just need to trust Him."

Those answers are designed to keep us from thinking and using our minds, and get us to deny our gut instincts which we rely on in every other facet of our existence to protect us. I finally figured out that Satan was nothing more than my gut instinct telling me something was fishy.

So anyway, please know I mean no disrespect and love Christians to death - have no problems with anyone being a Christian, and I can say with truth I've never tried to discourage anyone from their faith. I wouldn't want anyone to go thru what I did, lol. And maybe I'm wrong in thinking I can compartmentalize the discussion, lol, but once I get going about God I have a hard time shutting up. Most of my Christian friends tell me that the conversation only strengthens their faith, and that pleases me immensely. I still try to take it easy on them.

Actually, there is one case where I would try to "persuade" someone to rethink faith, and that is if their beliefs were hurting themselves or others... and unfortunately there are plenty of people in our world who fall into that category.

artist4perry wrote:Don't be so quick to judge God. There is a deeper story to be had. For # one as for the oxen stumbling they had disobeyed God. They were told to carry it a certain way, not on a cart with Oxen. The people had basically turned their back on God and ignored what he had told them. It is much more complex than your making it.

Why must he be so dang nitpicky with all the rules and regs in the first place? He even admits that the law was designed so that NO man could possibly keep it. The natural Christian answer to the question is exactly that - that the goal was to prove man incapable of saving himself without the coming Savior. But forget that for a second -- my question is from a psychological point of view... what kind of psyche has such an all encompassing need for control over their creation? If you think of God as a person, it honestly paints a very disturbing picture. Christianity has to defend God by divorcing him from human attributes, or claiming that we have no way of understanding them. (e.g., Q: "God killed thousands in anger, how could He be infinitely merciful and loving?" A: It shows that we don't really understand mercy or love"). But on the flipside, when it comes to trying to attract us to God, his "human" attributes are always touted to attract us. How could we love someone we couldn't relate to on any level?

artist4perry wrote:As for the people ordered to be put to death, do you know what kind of people they were? Cannibalistic, cruel, sacrificing children, child molesters, etc.......... Kind of helps to get the whole story.

I haven't heard that about the Midianites before, and it sounds like something that came out of an apologetics book. Apologeticists are the "Spin Doctors of the Faith", and would be awesome defense attorneys for the Maffia. But most (maybe all) of those traits can also describe God and his own people. Cruelty... I could write a book on that one alone. Sacrificing children? How about Judges 11, which tells the tale of Jephthah, who promised that if God would give him a victory in battle, he'd sacrifice the first thing that came out of his door to greet him when he got home.

30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

OOPS!!! That vow was about as helpful as a wish made on the Monkey's Paw...

34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break.”

36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”

38 “You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

And God allowed this to happen?!? Of course, this is the same guy who had Abraham poised with knife held high above his own son to prove his loyalty. And back to the Midianites for a second -- if they were really that horrible, why did he allow them to save the virgins for themselves? Didn't they eat people and abuse their kids, too?

artist4perry wrote:Look I respect anyone's right not to believe. But there is more about God than you will read quickly in the bible. It takes study for a long time.

I read all the good stuff first, glazed over and dismissed anything troubling, then compared it to my own experience. In the end, it's really our experience that matters the most -- I couldn't keep going thru life blaming myself for the fact that the Bible's promises from God (especially regarding spiritual growth) were so hit-and-miss, if not rarely realized at all.

artist4perry wrote:Now as for the New Testament and how we are to live today... Do you have a problem with people who are to be peace loving, good citizens, good husbands, wives, and children. Being fair to others, loving to others, putting others above yourself? I am not perfect, but do you have a great deal of problem with the way I am? Just saying, there is more to it. I am not trying to convert anyone, just saying if you want to see the worst in God, and not see the good. You find what you seek. But you miss the point of him entirely.

I don't have any problems with you or any Christian (or any person otherwise) who are those types - I'd be in Utopia if I could live surrounded by people like that. I've come to realize that God is not necessary for people to be that way - for many, it comes natural. More often than not people create God in their own images. Hateful, angry, or bitter people (if they believe in God) tends to view God as the same (think Fred Phelps). Peaceful, loving, and merciful people envision that type of God.

I grew up in a Christian household, and the few really decent things about me I attribute to the influence of Christian faith. But since leaving faith behind, I'm the same person, probably even a bit better. I feel like I value human life much more (mine as well), and I approach life much differently than I did when I considered it just a "whisper" that I shouldn't treasure. I definitely respect differences in others a whole lot more than I did when I saw people as being "deviant" or "sinful" in their lives or beliefs. Didn't matter if I loved them in spite of those things or not -- inside I saw them as "wrong" because of what I'd been taught based on the law of God. Now I find people fascinating, and just love and enjoy them for who they are as long as they are good people -- it's really freeing.

One of the biggest confirmations to me personally that there is no divine being in charge, is the absolute wreck which we call Christendom today. It's no shining city on a hill, and there is zilcho quality control from the Almighty inside his own religion -- everything goes without supernatural intervention, and we are taught to believe that it will all be dealt with in one fell swoop when he returns. There are plenty of great Christians in the world, but even the Mormons cohesively have a better appearance and quality of character than Christianity as a whole. If God was real, everyone would want some of him. He'd be a hotter high than crack cocaine, everyone would believe the same thing, and everyone's lives would change for the better and stay better. Christianity would have the monopoly on good deeds and charity in the world, but that's not the case either. Instead, some of the biggest and greatest work is done by secular gazillionaires who just want to give back.

I love that you are a Christian, and if I was still one myself I would tell you that I could see Christ in you - you're one of the good ones. Me, I'd go back to believing in a heartbeat if I could, but I don't think it's possible. It's taken some time, but life without God has actually turned out to be pretty fulfilling though.

I enjoy reading posts from you Rip but you must be told that this one looks lots like BlueSkies. :lol:

by **Rip Rokken** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:26 pm

scarygirl wrote:
artist4perry wrote:Rip, I would get into this deeper with you maybe someday when we can more one on one. But not here. I don't see setting here and arguing with folks for the sake of argument. I just don't see this being productive.

There are too many here ready to just bash my head in because they can and want to. That is not the same as you and I would discuss a topic among friends. At least you and I would not come out of it with bad feelings. I would still love you as a friend.

As for the topic, didn't bring it up, didn't want to. I still hold to my faith as stupid as some of you find me to be, and always will.

I don't find you stupid at all. And I respect Rip immensely. I am a little sadded though that he has lost faith, but I understand.

Ginger, anytime.

SG, thanks and I feel the same about you. I think I've posted this before, and will do it again to reply to Ginger's comment - nobody is stupid for having faith. If so, that would describe me for most of my life too. There is nothing remotely shameful about having faith.

by **Rip Rokken** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:34 pm

Moon Beam wrote:I enjoy reading posts from you Rip but you must be told that this one looks lots like BlueSkies.

Hahaha... She's a pretty deep writer sometimes, but this one is all me. I can't even remember what I posted - I just go on autopilot sometimes.

by **Frontiers65** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:55 pm

You are all assholes.....She is a human. I just think when you all bite the dust.

by **yulog** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:09 pm

Frontiers65 wrote:You are all assholes.....She is a human. I just think when you all bite the dust.

Who ,God or blueskies? I'm having a hard time believing either one is human :lol:

by **Rip Rokken** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:19 pm

Frontiers65 wrote:You are all assholes.....She is a human. I just think when you all bite the dust.

Lol, that's a long ways off! Any chance you'll think in the meantime?

by **artist4perry** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:39 pm

Rip Rokken wrote:
Frontiers65 wrote:You are all assholes.....She is a human. I just think when you all bite the dust.

Lol, that's a long ways off! Any chance you'll think in the meantime?

Was a bit wordy Rip, but I am sure heartfelt. Sometimes we just have a lot to get out of our system don't we? :wink:

by **Melissa** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:48 pm

Ah another religious debate, lol. I have a lot of the same feelings Dan does. And after some horrible life experiences and losses, can definitely understand how people lose their faith. So much is confusing and makes no sense. All I know is I'm completely at peace with what is in my heart and soul, and if those aren't good enough, oh well. I just go on enjoying my kids, my family, and great friends. All things I know to be true.

On the radio on my way in this morning they were talking about Amy and the rumors that swirled around her. Makes you wonder how much that affects people. I know one thing I've grown extremely intolerant of in the last year or so is people who gossip about others for nothing but malicious intent. Has a horrible affect on people, and how others treat them, and I can only imagine with celebrities like Amy it must be a million times worse. Makes you wonder how much of that affects someone like her who was an addict.

by **conversationpc** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:18 am

artist4perry wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:
artist4perry wrote:But if you are doing Gods will then you should be striving to be good. Not perfect.

I'm answering out of sequence and I'm not trying to nitpick at all -- it just brings up a good topic. This is one of the paradoxes of Christianity, which teaches that anything of our own effort is worthless, and that our righteousness is as filthy rags compared to God. We are totally depraved and incapable of doing any good whatsoever. Supposedly any useful good that comes out of us (things that count in the end) is thru the exercise of the Holy Spirit acting thru us, in union with us -- not just obedience to rules or even going by our own natural sense of right and wrong. Technically, we can't strive to do good -- we can only strive to remain broken enough so that God can act out thru us. I don't think most churches teach this in depth because they don't really understand it, but it's absolutely scriptural, especially clear in Paul's letters.

I don't think I can be perfect in any way. But striving to do good? Can't we do that? We choose weather to rob an old lady who drops her purse, or to pick up the contents and give it to her. Is that a choice or are we robots? I do believe it is a choice to do good or not. We are given the choice to live right or not. Just the way I look at it. My spirituality is just a part of me. I choose to do it God's way because I want to. Hard to explain Rip. I know some religions teach your either born good or bad. I disagree. I have never held the belief that you are predestined for heaven. Nor are you predestined to hell. Don't know if that makes sense to you.

The problem is that you're not taking those passages in context with the whole of scripture. I've always understood that what those portions of scripture are talking about is that, in and of just ourselves, we aren't capable of doing good. However, mankind shares what I've heard referred to as "common grace", i.e. even though not all people are believers, because of his grace, people can do good things. The desire to to good things that's in everyone is that common grace regardless of if someone is a believer or not and the farther someone alienates themselves from God, the more that common grace is lost and, unfortunately, we see lots of examples of that in society as well.

by **conversationpc** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:31 am

Rip Rokken wrote:One of the biggest confirmations to me personally that there is no divine being in charge, is the absolute wreck which we call Christendom today. It's no shining city on a hill, and there is zilcho quality control from the Almighty inside his own religion -- everything goes without supernatural intervention, and we are taught to believe that it will all be dealt with in one fell swoop when he returns. There are plenty of great Christians in the world, but even the Mormons cohesively have a better appearance and quality of character than Christianity as a whole. If God was real, everyone would want some of him. He'd be a hotter high than crack cocaine, everyone would believe the same thing, and everyone's lives would change for the better and stay better. Christianity would have the monopoly on good deeds and charity in the world, but that's not the case either. Instead, some of the biggest and greatest work is done by secular gazillionaires who just want to give back.

Studies routinely show that people who consider themselves to be Christian or religious give a higher percentage of their incomes to charity than any other demographic and I can testify to the fact that, in my experience, religious folk also tend to give more of their free time to charitable activities than do wealthier people. However, like the amounts of taxes paid, the wealthier seem to have a bigger impact solely because they can afford to give a larger amount but that doesn't mean they spend a larger percentage of their incomes or time than "normal" folks do.

As for God's church, obviously it isn't always going to work the way it should. There are tons of folks who attend church on a Sunday, may call themselves a Christian, but rarely live like it when they're not between the four walls of the church building. Heck, I've been a believer and there've been times over the last 22 years of my walk with Christ that I've done things that haven't exactly been a great witness. When that happens, that's my fault and not God's. He didn't turn me into an automaton when I began following him.

As for if God were real then everyone would want some of him...I don't see any evidence at all in humanity for that kind of a statement. There are some who could look God straight in the eye after being given the proverbial keys to the kingdom and they'd either throw it all away in a quest for their own wealth and glory or they'd find a way to crucify him a second time just like they did the first time.

by **Behshad** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:07 am

Melissa wrote:Ah another religious debate, lol. I have a lot of the same feelings Dan does. And after some horrible life experiences and losses, can definitely understand how people lose their faith. So much is confusing and makes no sense. All I know is I'm completely at peace with what is in my heart and soul, and if those aren't good enough, oh well. I just go on enjoying my kids, my family, and great friends. All things I know to be true.

On the radio on my way in this morning they were talking about Amy and the rumors that swirled around her. Makes you wonder how much that affects people. I know one thing I've grown extremely intolerant of in the last year or so is people who gossip about others for nothing but malicious intent. Has a horrible affect on people, and how others treat them, and I can only imagine with celebrities like Amy it must be a million times worse. Makes you wonder how much of that affects someone like her who was an addict.

In the same token that people lose faith over losing loved ones, many also gain faith.
We all go through ups and downs in our lives , some of us more down and some more ups,,, but I for one never lost faith and after losing to children I just realized that we all come and go, some stay here for over 100 years and some for less than a second. That instead of it being God's "fault" its God's plan and he wouldnt just create all this , just to end it with a short time on this planet. There is something much bigger waiting for us after this. But you dont have to be religious to get there. I think all it takes is being a good person and treat people good.

by **Saint John** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:23 am

Behshad wrote: I think all it takes is being a good person and treat people good.

Whether that's all it takes or not, that's all *I'm* gonna do. Again, I can't be expected to play some game that no one gave me the rules to. Look at it this way ... the vast majority of people believe what they believe because that's what they were subjected and exposed to. I was like that until I actually thought about it. I'd simply been brainwashed from a young age. I sat back and tried to look for truths, concepts and virtues that I thought transcended indoctrination. And they weren't very hard to find. Kindness, compassion, love, tolerance, justice and truth (just to name a few) seem to be far more logical, sane, understandable and noble than sit, kneel, pray, sit, kneel, pray. The "church" is probably the most manipulated entity in history. "Faith" is just a guise for that which is illogical. It's also code for "We really have no fucking clue how to explain this bullshit to you." :lol:

by **Melissa** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:39 am

Behshad wrote:
Melissa wrote:Ah another religious debate, lol. I have a lot of the same feelings Dan does. And after some horrible life experiences and losses, can definitely understand how people lose their faith. So much is confusing and makes no sense. All I know is I'm completely at peace with what is in my heart and soul, and if those aren't good enough, oh well. I just go on enjoying my kids, my family, and great friends. All things I know to be true.

On the radio on my way in this morning they were talking about Amy and the rumors that swirled around her. Makes you wonder how much that affects people. I know one thing I've grown extremely intolerant of in the last year or so is people who gossip about others for nothing but malicious intent. Has a horrible affect on people, and how others treat them, and I can only imagine with celebrities like Amy it must be a million times worse. Makes you wonder how much of that affects someone like her who was an addict.

In the same token that people lose faith over losing loved ones, many also gain faith.
We all go through ups and downs in our lives , some of us more down and some more ups,,, but I for one never lost faith and after losing to children I just realized that we all come and go, some stay here for over 100 years and some for less than a second. That instead of it being God's "fault" its God's plan and he wouldnt just create all this , just to end it with a short time on this planet. There is something much bigger waiting for us after this. But you dont have to be religious to get there. I think all it takes is being a good person and treat people good.

I try to understand all that, I really do. Can't say I've lost faith completely, but it's definitely something I find to be a lost person in understanding, no matter how much I've tried and wanted to. Oh and I agree, treat people good.

by AR » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:29 am

by **artist4perry** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:44 am

AR wrote:

Most folks are just in a discussion here. Not trying to convert anyone. So put that bad boy away sugar! LOL :wink:

by **Michigan Girl** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:57 am

AR wrote:

...

I say *some non~believers are the ones who have the urge to whip things
out ... and that's fine, I like to see what they've got!! :wink:

This is cute, though ...and I agree!!

*sorry ...stereotyping ...it's a sin!!

by **conversationpc** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am

Saint John wrote:
Behshad wrote: I think all it takes is being a good person and treat people good.

Whether that's all it takes or not, that's all *I'm* gonna do. Again, I can't be expected to play some game that no one gave me the rules to. Look at it this way ... the vast majority of people believe what they believe because that's what they were subjected and exposed to. I was like that until I actually thought about it. I'd simply been brainwashed from a young age. I sat back and tried to look for truths, concepts and virtues that I thought transcended indoctrination. And they weren't very hard to find. Kindness, compassion, love, tolerance, justice and truth (just to name a few) seem to be far more logical, sane, understandable and noble than sit, kneel, pray, sit, kneel, pray. The "church" is probably the most manipulated entity in history. "Faith" is just a guise for that which is illogical. It's also code for "We really have no fucking clue how to explain this bullshit to you."

Actually, you'd be surprised to find out that a ton of Christians don't follow Christ because of what they were taught as a child. I became a believer when I was eighteen and most of my other friends who are Christians have similar stories. Now if we're talking simply about folks who claim to be a Christian, who go to church maybe once or twice a year, or who just consider themselves a Christian because they go to church, then you're probably right, though I'd argue that saying you're christian because you go to church no more makes you a Christian than being in a garage makes you a car.

by **conversationpc** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:11 am

artist4perry wrote:
AR wrote:

Most folks are just in a discussion here. Not trying to convert anyone. So put that bad boy away sugar! LOL

AR is really into penis-waving, in case you haven't already noticed. :lol:

by AR » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:14 am

I am a creationist; I believe man created god.

by **Saint John** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:33 am

AR wrote:I am a creationist; I believe man created god.

You know, Ed, that makes a heck of a lot more sense than the opposite! Some people just can't cope with the idea that dead people are just that ... dead. We need to validate "the other side" to help cope with the idea that we may never see them again. Personally, I air on the side of caution and assume that I never will see them again. It makes me much more aware of just how precious the time with them now is. And if I see them again ... cool! Well, most of them. :lol:

by **RedWingFan** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:57 am

Saint John wrote:
AR wrote:I am a creationist; I believe man created god.

You know, Ed, that makes a heck of a lot more sense than the opposite! Some people just can't cope with the idea that dead people are just that ... dead. We need to validate "the other side" to help cope with the idea that we may never see them again. Personally, I air on the side of caution and assume that I never will see them again. It makes me much more aware of just how precious the time with them now is. And if I see them again ... cool! Well, most of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-RpFTjnm1Q

Just cuz I love posting this. :lol:

by **conversationpc** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:00 am

RedWingFan wrote:
Saint John wrote:
AR wrote:I am a creationist; I believe man created god.

You know, Ed, that makes a heck of a lot more sense than the opposite! Some people just can't cope with the idea that dead people are just that ... dead. We need to validate "the other side" to help cope with the idea that we may never see them again. Personally, I air on the side of caution and assume that I never will see them again. It makes me much more aware of just how precious the time with them now is. And if I see them again ... cool! Well, most of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-RpFTjnm1Q

Just cuz I love posting this.

MR

Amy Winehouse is dead

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