Religion & Morality

by **S2M** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:04 am

And here ya go..... :lol:

by **Duncan** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:25 am

"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

by **conversationpc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:38 am

Duncan wrote:"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

On every side? In order for this statement to be true, wouldn't that have to be proven in each case where someone has faith? I've been a Christian for over 20 years now. Am I a mean, selfish, and stupid person?

by **Saint John** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:43 am

Duncan wrote:"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

This pretty much sums it up perfectly.

by **conversationpc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:44 am

Saint John wrote:
Duncan wrote:"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

This pretty much sums it up perfectly.

On every side? Do you think that applies to me, Ginger, and others on this forum?

by **S2M** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:52 am

Dave, quit taking that passage personally...that's the fallacy in your rebuttals. In general, religion does that...It's no different than saying smoking 4 packs a day will kill you...and you turning around and saying, 'my uncle smoked 4 packs a day..he's still alive at 80. So it doesn't kill everyone.'. Total missing of the point...

Even Mother Theresa wasn't all that....she gave her life to the poor, and KEPT them poor. There was nothing remotely saintly about that woman. Remember this line...'There is no such thing as a selfless act'

by **conversationpc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:56 am

S2M wrote:Dave, quit taking that passage personally...that's the fallacy in your rebuttals. In general, religion does that...It's no different than saying smoking 4 packs a day will kill you...and you turning around and saying, 'my uncle smoked 4 packs a day..he's still alive at 80. So it doesn't kill everyone.'. Total missing of the point...

Even Mother Theresa wasn't all that....she gave her life to the poor, and KEPT them poor. There was nothing remotely saintly about that woman. Remember this line...'There is no such thing as a selfless act'

Nope, didn't miss the point at all. Just looking to see if you would clarify the point. I do know of atheists who think that anyone who believes in a god of some sort cannot be moral or intelligent (just like there are some Christians who think all atheists are immoral creeps).

by **S2M** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:59 am

Well that begs the question...are they immoral creeps for the lone reason of not being a follower, or because they think non-followers cannot possibly have any moral compass which is separate from religion?

by **conversationpc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:09 am

S2M wrote:Well that begs the question...are they immoral creeps for the lone reason of not being a follower, or because they think non-followers cannot possibly have any moral compass which is separate from religion?

Well, you'd have to ask someone who actually thinks that. Personally, I get along with all kinds of people: other Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, etc. A person doesn't have to be religious to be moral. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

by **Saint John** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:10 am

conversationpc wrote:
Saint John wrote:
Duncan wrote:"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

This pretty much sums it up perfectly.

On every side? Do you think that applies to me, Ginger, and others on this forum?

Not specifically, but to your denominations as a whole, yes. Dave, it's insane for anyone to run around preaching and/or subscribing to something that, throughout the history of mankind, has not a scintilla of evidence to back up. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. "Faith" is an invention, Dave. It manipulates man's fears and caters to those that just can't help but wonder "why?" And that's okay, but until someone of "faith" admits that ultimately they just don't know, it's hard to do anything but fucking laugh at them. It's no different than if I wake up every day and go pray to a school bus in a junkyard. Both are illogical, borderline insane and really a waste of time. Your religion du jour is simply that which you've been exposed to. I have no doubt, none at all, that had you been born in Afghanistan, you'd be a servant of Islam. Geography has simply landed your "faith" elsewhere.

If someone wants to believe in God, fine. But to start putting names, dates, events and "facts" to that God is just plain selfish, stupid and insecure. And for anyone to claim to know "the way" is the biggest pile of garbage ever. That's just lying.

by **conversationpc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:42 am

Saint John wrote:"Faith" is an invention, Dave. It manipulates man's fears and caters to those that just can't help but wonder "why?"

I can't speak for others but I didn't respond to Christ out of fear and I would venture to say that most Christians I know are that way as well.

And that's okay, but until someone of "faith" admits that ultimately they just don't know, it's hard to do anything but fucking laugh at them.

Conversely, shouldn't you also be laughing at those atheists who claim to know for sure?

Your religion du jour is simply that which you've been exposed to. I have no doubt, none at all, that had you been born in Afghanistan, you'd be a servant of Islam. Geography has simply landed your "faith" elsewhere.

I wasn't born into anything and didn't even become a Christian until my late teens. By that time, I'd been exposed to more than just Christianity and much of the Christianity I had been exposed to weren't all great examples of people who were actually living out their faith. If anything, I should've been turned away from Christianity but that isn't the way it worked out.

by **Saint John** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:56 am

conversationpc wrote:
Conversely, shouldn't you also be laughing at those atheists who claim to know for sure?

Absolutely!

by **conversationpc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:59 am

Saint John wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
Conversely, shouldn't you also be laughing at those atheists who claim to know for sure?

Absolutely!

I couldn't stay mad at you even if I wanted to. :lol:

by **artist4perry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:30 am

Duncan wrote:"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

Thank you Duncan. Goes to show you don't know many truly religious people. :wink:

by **artist4perry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:41 am

Many highly intelligent people are religious. Just because you a non believer does not make you a genius. Do you guys just not get that even if you cannot prove God in the same instance you cannot disprove his existence? So because you cannot see it does it exist? Ask scientists who once did not know what a molecule was. Or what air was made of.

I think on the contrary a religious person can think outside of the box. Where one who cannot imagine anything existing outside of a box is limited in their thinking. You must have concrete proof.

Seriously this is an old subject.

Just like Dave said, we are not stupid, we just disagree. It does not prove anyone to be stupid just because of their faith. If anything, it is stupid to make such a blanketed statement.

Dan I expect a little more from you.

Your not dumb, nor am I. We just disagree, and I for one am O.K. with that. :wink:

Corrected

by **Saint John** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:48 am

I guess I'm just in the camp that believes that we should stop caring about and wasting so much time on what we're not sure exists, and worry and care about those that we do know exist. Religion, throughout history, by and large, can count division, confusion and murder as its 3 biggest contributions to society. And that's just embarrassing. But there a few good folks like Dave and Ginger sprinkled into the mix ... just to name 2. You happy now, Dave? You selfish prick! :lol:

by **Rip Rokken** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:56 am

Quick sample of Christopher Hitchens on religion. Hitchslappin!!!

Saint John will love it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=078s5bCXBS4

by **artist4perry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:56 am

Saint John wrote:I guess I'm just in the camp that believes that we should stop caring about and wasting so much time on what we're not sure exists, and worry and care about those that we do know exist. Religion, throughout history, by and large, can count division, confusion and murder as its 3 biggest contributions to society. And that's just embarrassing. But there a few good folks like Dave and Ginger sprinkled into the mix ... just to name 2. You happy now, Dave? You selfish prick!

Your too cute!

I owe you a hug when I see you.

Personally I am not trying to convert anyone here. I get tired of this subject being a faith bashing tirade. I am sure Conversation PC is not trying to convince any of you to convert.

Seems to me the only ones trying to convince anyone on here their side would not be us. Not to say I won't stand up for myself when I see a one sided argument.

But come on S2M you started this thread, can you not stop the pot stirring? Is your hand not getting tired already? Man are you so tired you have to rehash this crap fest? I would much rather have dinner with you guys and argue about music. :wink:

by **S2M** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:51 am

Ginger, the difference is that I'm thick-skinned when it comes to this topic...I'm not stressing that people are trying to change my mind, or are questioning my intelligence. However, I DO have to say that a great majority of the devout are, in fact, not extremely gifted in the brain power area...

You tell me what you and your faith believers would say to me if I told you that I worshipped the purple god of the antelope people. A god that believes that in the year 2245, King Antelope will come down from K2 and anyone wearing green pajamas - who has not broken any of the 8 tenets of Daban Rabi....will be given eternal life in the Kingdom of Halat? Oh, and by the way....I have total faith that this is true. Cause an ancient text tells me so......

by **scarab** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:58 am

love richard dawkins,

one of my favorite vids of all time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoV_kSe7Dk

miss him

:lol:

by **conversationpc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:58 am

artist4perry wrote:Many highly intelligent people are religious. Just because you a non believer does not make you a genius. Do you guys just not get that even if you cannot prove God in the same instance you cannot disprove his existence? So because you cannot see it does it exist? Ask scientists who once did not know what a molecule was. Or what air was made of.

I think on the contrary a religious person can think outside of the box. Where one who cannot imagine anything existing outside of a box is limited in their thinking. You must have concrete proof.

Seriously this is an old subject.

Just like Conversation PC said, we are not stupid, we just disagree. It does not prove anyone to be stupid just because of their faith. If anything, it is stupid to make such a blanketed statement.

Dave I expect a little more from you.

Your not dumb, nor am I. We just disagree, and I for one am O.K. with that.

Huh? What Dave are you referring to?

BTW...It's conversationpc (pc=piece), not Conversation PC.

by **conversationpc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:59 am

Saint John wrote:I guess I'm just in the camp that believes that we should stop caring about and wasting so much time on what we're not sure exists, and worry and care about those that we do know exist. Religion, throughout history, by and large, can count division, confusion and murder as its 3 biggest contributions to society. And that's just embarrassing. But there a few good folks like Dave and Ginger sprinkled into the mix ... just to name 2. You happy now, Dave? You selfish prick!

by **conversationpc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:03 am

S2M wrote:However, I DO have to say that a great majority of the devout are, in fact, not extremely gifted in the brain power area...

Ummm...Yeah, right. Judging by the content of some of the posts from some atheists and agnostics, I'm not exactly seeing a ton of evidence that the brain power there is much more convincing. :lol:

You tell me what you and your faith believers would say to me if I told you that I worshipped the purple god of the antelope people. A god that believes that in the year 2245, King Antelope will come down from K2 and anyone wearing green pajamas - who has not broken any of the 8 tenets of Daban Rabi....will be given eternal life in the Kingdom of Halat? Oh, and by the way....I have total faith that this is true. Cause an ancient text tells me so......

Did King Antelope exist in history and are there other texts testifying to his actual existence? And if not, which alternate dimension does he currently reside in and what type of hallucinogenic drug can I take to go on vacation there. :lol:

by **Duncan** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:05 am

artist4perry wrote:
Duncan wrote:"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

Thank you Duncan. Goes to show you don't know many truly religious people.

Does it?

by **artist4perry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:06 am

conversationpc wrote:
artist4perry wrote:Many highly intelligent people are religious. Just because you a non believer does not make you a genius. Do you guys just not get that even if you cannot prove God in the same instance you cannot disprove his existence? So because you cannot see it does it exist? Ask scientists who once did not know what a molecule was. Or what air was made of.

I think on the contrary a religious person can think outside of the box. Where one who cannot imagine anything existing outside of a box is limited in their thinking. You must have concrete proof.

Seriously this is an old subject.

Just like Conversation PC said, we are not stupid, we just disagree. It does not prove anyone to be stupid just because of their faith. If anything, it is stupid to make such a blanketed statement.

Dan I expect a little more from you.

Your not dumb, nor am I. We just disagree, and I for one am O.K. with that.

Huh? What Dave are you referring to?

BTW...It's conversationpc (pc=piece), not Conversation PC.

I meant Dan not Dave. I was thinking your Dave right?

by **conversationpc** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:08 am

artist4perry wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
artist4perry wrote:Many highly intelligent people are religious. Just because you a non believer does not make you a genius. Do you guys just not get that even if you cannot prove God in the same instance you cannot disprove his existence? So because you cannot see it does it exist? Ask scientists who once did not know what a molecule was. Or what air was made of.

I think on the contrary a religious person can think outside of the box. Where one who cannot imagine anything existing outside of a box is limited in their thinking. You must have concrete proof.

Seriously this is an old subject.

Just like Conversation PC said, we are not stupid, we just disagree. It does not prove anyone to be stupid just because of their faith. If anything, it is stupid to make such a blanketed statement.

Dan I expect a little more from you.

Your not dumb, nor am I. We just disagree, and I for one am O.K. with that.

Huh? What Dave are you referring to?

BTW...It's conversationpc (pc=piece), not Conversation PC.

I meant Dan not Dave. I was thinking your Dave right?

OK...Dan you can yell at. Dave, you can't :lol:

by **Gideon** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:12 am

Agnosticism is the only rational worldview when it comes to religion. (And I say that as a Christian.)

by **S2M** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:13 am

None of the gospels were written on first hand experience....that's like someone writing a book on Obama's presidency...400 years from now - with nothing more than word of mouth accounts from descendants of Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid.....

by **artist4perry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:16 am

S2M wrote:Ginger, the difference is that I'm thick-skinned when it comes to this topic...I'm not stressing that people are trying to change my mind, or are questioning my intelligence. However, I DO have to say that a great majority of the devout are, in fact, not extremely gifted in the brain power area...

You tell me what you and your faith believers would say to me if I told you that I worshipped the purple god of the antelope people. A god that believes that in the year 2245, King Antelope will come down from K2 and anyone wearing green pajamas - who has not broken any of the 8 tenets of Daban Rabi....will be given eternal life in the Kingdom of Halat? Oh, and by the way....I have total faith that this is true. Cause an ancient text tells me so......

S2M the difference is, your not stupid to not believe and I am not stupid to believe. It is opposing theories that is all. But I don't question your ability to think over this.

As for stupid people are not gifted who believe in God, are you saying the red necks who don't believe in God are gifted thinkers? How about the atheist drop outs and scum bags of the world? Seriously stupid people are stupid people, they come in all walks of life, in all countries, in every town, and in faith and no faith.

Stupid is as stupid does...............Forest.

As for God. Again did I tell you that you have to repent or believe? Last time I checked I said I was O.K. with you not believing in it.

But I don't start a thread to talk about how stupid I think Atheism is. I already know your stance on it. You have told us, over and over and over.................come on break the broken record already. :wink:

by **Duncan** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:21 am

Not believing in something isn't a theory.

MR

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