Religion & Morality

[Melissa]

I've come to realize over the years that people who argue to defend their faith to high heaven ( ), and claim no one can shake it, are the ones that actually DO have shaky faith. Those who are at peace with their faith, don't fight to defend it against those who don't share the same view. Just sayin'.

[Gideon]

Ah but Gideon it is logic too! When I see the design so intricate in nature. When I gave birth to my first child. When I see the wonders of nature, the forests, the mountains, the complexity of how things work. I see a creator. I see design. I am an artist and even the best artists cannot compare to the beauty of things in real life! It is well designed. Water, sun, dirt, tree seed, a tree grows, food is made, animals and humans eat the food. Why do we eat the food? What purpose do we have to enjoy food? Why do we hunger for it? Why do we need it?

Why do we think?

I'm not saying that there aren't logical questions or pursuits to be answered or found in religion nor am I suggesting that people who are religious don't examine things logically. For example, I came to the personal belief that God exists because I simply couldn't conclude that the complexity of the modern world is the result of a random accident without a higher power behind it. What I am saying, though, is that basic logic dictates that one cannot assume facts not in evidence. As there is no proof that God exists, a completely rational person looking at this strictly logically would not be able to say that He does.

As far as your questions, I suggest reading more into epistemology, a really fascinating branch of philosophy.

[artist4perry]

What makes you think he does not deem them special? God never promised there would be no pain or suffering. And if you believe in God then you might also believe in evil in the world. Ever wonder if these things come about to make you doubt there is a God?

By his actions. You have to worship God to go to heaven, but the baby born with an incurable disease who dies before the age of reason never had that opportunity. There's millions of babies that have died.

Why would God do things to make me doubt him?

The 'age of accountability' is a Christian tenet that preserves the immortal soul of a child in these sort of circumstances. That's one of the things that used to trouble me about my faith until I did a little digging.

I believe God sees children as innocents. Free of sin. Age of Accountability is one who knows right from wrong. Not a child, even an adolescent cannot fully understand right and wrong. I see them as safe.

[S2M]

Religion has an answer for everything. Just like Freud's theories, religion isn't open to falsification...and even when there IS something that stumps the experts, once again, 'we' are told to take it on faith. Faith has always been religion's get out of jail free - card.

[artist4perry]

Religion has an answer for everything. Just like Freud's theories, religion isn't open to falsification...and even when there IS something that stumps the experts, once again, 'we' are told to take it on faith. Faith has always been religion's get out of jail free - card.

Ones who hate religion have the same attitude. You see they always say we have logic. No one of religion can have logic. LOL

But I will tell you I don't know it all. God better have us understand everything when we get there or we will have long lines with folks asking lots and lots of questions! I will be one of them!

[Rip Rokken]

Why would God do things to make me doubt him?

My point exactly, and the biggest factor in my own deconversion. Why do things (or refuse to do things) that only lead toward to doubt or disillusionment within his followers? Has nothing to do with believers throwing a fit because things don't work out the way people think they should. Has everything to do with the Bible's promises failing with great consistency to be true, and needing to be shored up with grand, improbable leaps of logic by people who give an eternal free pass to The Almighty just because he's "God", and because our fallen minds we simply cannot comprehend his wonderful, perfect intent or timing.

[RossValoryRocks]

Why would God do things to make me doubt him?

My point exactly, and the biggest factor in my own deconversion. Why do things (or refuse to do things) that only lead toward to doubt or disillusionment within his followers? Has nothing to do with believers throwing a fit because things don't work out the way people think they should. Has everything to do with the Bible's promises failing with great consistency to be true, and needing to be shored up with grand, improbable leaps of logic by people who give an eternal free pass to The Almighty just because he's "God", and because our fallen minds we simply cannot comprehend his wonderful, perfect intent or timing.

Maybe the fault isn't with God...but with you?

[Rip Rokken]

The 'age of accountability' is a Christian tenet that preserves the immortal soul of a child in these sort of circumstances. That's one of the things that used to trouble me about my faith until I did a little digging.

I believe God sees children as innocents. Free of sin. Age of Accountability is one who knows right from wrong. Not a child, even an adolescent cannot fully understand right and wrong. I see them as safe.

Honest question - I've never seen the verses that support this (and they may be there). I may be mistaken but I believe I read just recently that this was a Catholic doctrine that was introduced sometime in the past. Can this be supported with the Bible?

[S2M]

The 'age of accountability' is a Christian tenet that preserves the immortal soul of a child in these sort of circumstances. That's one of the things that used to trouble me about my faith until I did a little digging.

I believe God sees children as innocents. Free of sin. Age of Accountability is one who knows right from wrong. Not a child, even an adolescent cannot fully understand right and wrong. I see them as safe.

Honest question - I've never seen the verses that support this (and they may be there). I may be mistaken but I believe I read just recently that this was a Catholic doctrine that was introduced sometime in the past. Can this be supported with the Bible?

I believe it can be found at Religipedia...the encyclopedia that anyone can add to....lol

[artist4perry]

The 'age of accountability' is a Christian tenet that preserves the immortal soul of a child in these sort of circumstances. That's one of the things that used to trouble me about my faith until I did a little digging.

I believe God sees children as innocents. Free of sin. Age of Accountability is one who knows right from wrong. Not a child, even an adolescent cannot fully understand right and wrong. I see them as safe.

Honest question - I've never seen the verses that support this (and they may be there). I may be mistaken but I believe I read just recently that this was a Catholic doctrine that was introduced sometime in the past. Can this be supported with the Bible?

Jesus told us to come to him as little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Never have I ever read a child is lost at birth. And I have read the bible many times.

Give me some time Rip and I will look it up for you!

[Duncan]

Ah but Gideon it is logic too! When I see the design so intricate in nature. When I gave birth to my first child. When I see the wonders of nature, the forests, the mountains, the complexity of how things work. I see a creator. I see design. I am an artist and even the best artists cannot compare to the beauty of things in real life! It is well designed. Water, sun, dirt, tree seed, a tree grows, food is made, animals and humans eat the food. Why do we eat the food? What purpose do we have to enjoy food? Why do we hunger for it? Why do we need it?

Why do we think?

I'm not saying that there aren't logical questions or pursuits to be answered or found in religion nor am I suggesting that people who are religious don't examine things logically. For example, I came to the personal belief that God exists because I simply couldn't conclude that the complexity of the modern world is the result of a random accident without a higher power behind it. What I am saying, though, is that basic logic dictates that one cannot assume facts not in evidence. As there is no proof that God exists, a completely rational person looking at this strictly logically would not be able to say that He does.

As far as your questions, I suggest reading more into epistemology, a really fascinating branch of philosophy.

Gideon, does this mean you don't believe in evolution?

[Gideon]

Gideon, does this mean you don't believe in evolution?

The evidence strongly swings in favor of evolution, so yes. I'm definitely not an ideal Christian.

[Duncan]

The 'age of accountability' is a Christian tenet that preserves the immortal soul of a child in these sort of circumstances. That's one of the things that used to trouble me about my faith until I did a little digging.

I believe God sees children as innocents. Free of sin. Age of Accountability is one who knows right from wrong. Not a child, even an adolescent cannot fully understand right and wrong. I see them as safe.

Honest question - I've never seen the verses that support this (and they may be there). I may be mistaken but I believe I read just recently that this was a Catholic doctrine that was introduced sometime in the past. Can this be supported with the Bible?

I'm sure someone will find something. It is, afterall, the great book of multiple choice.

[artist4perry]

The 'age of accountability' is a Christian tenet that preserves the immortal soul of a child in these sort of circumstances. That's one of the things that used to trouble me about my faith until I did a little digging.

I believe God sees children as innocents. Free of sin. Age of Accountability is one who knows right from wrong. Not a child, even an adolescent cannot fully understand right and wrong. I see them as safe.

Honest question - I've never seen the verses that support this (and they may be there). I may be mistaken but I believe I read just recently that this was a Catholic doctrine that was introduced sometime in the past. Can this be supported with the Bible?

I'm sure someone will find something. It is, afterall, the great book of multiple choice.

Curious Duncan, ever read said book?

[Duncan]

Gideon, does this mean you don't believe in evolution?

The evidence strongly swings in favor of evolution, so yes. I'm definitely not an ideal Christian.

So how does this square with your statement that you couldn't conclude that the complexity of the modern world is the result of randon accident?

[Gideon]

Gideon, does this mean you don't believe in evolution?

The evidence strongly swings in favor of evolution, so yes. I'm definitely not an ideal Christian.

So how does this square with your statement that you couldn't conclude that the complexity of the modern world is the result of randon accident?

Because not a shred of the evidence (that I'm familiar with, anyway) for evolution precludes the idea that a higher power was behind it.

[Duncan]

The 'age of accountability' is a Christian tenet that preserves the immortal soul of a child in these sort of circumstances. That's one of the things that used to trouble me about my faith until I did a little digging.

I believe God sees children as innocents. Free of sin. Age of Accountability is one who knows right from wrong. Not a child, even an adolescent cannot fully understand right and wrong. I see them as safe.

Honest question - I've never seen the verses that support this (and they may be there). I may be mistaken but I believe I read just recently that this was a Catholic doctrine that was introduced sometime in the past. Can this be supported with the Bible?

I'm sure someone will find something. It is, afterall, the great book of multiple choice.

Curious Duncan, ever read said book?

Yes, but not for a number of years.

[Duncan]

Gideon, does this mean you don't believe in evolution?

The evidence strongly swings in favor of evolution, so yes. I'm definitely not an ideal Christian.

So how does this square with your statement that you couldn't conclude that the complexity of the modern world is the result of randon accident?

Because not a shred of the evidence (that I'm familiar with, anyway) for evolution precludes the idea that a higher power was behind it.

Agreed, but where an unknown exists why insert a supernatural panacea?

[artist4perry]

The 'age of accountability' is a Christian tenet that preserves the immortal soul of a child in these sort of circumstances. That's one of the things that used to trouble me about my faith until I did a little digging.

I believe God sees children as innocents. Free of sin. Age of Accountability is one who knows right from wrong. Not a child, even an adolescent cannot fully understand right and wrong. I see them as safe.

Honest question - I've never seen the verses that support this (and they may be there). I may be mistaken but I believe I read just recently that this was a Catholic doctrine that was introduced sometime in the past. Can this be supported with the Bible?

I'm sure someone will find something. It is, afterall, the great book of multiple choice.

Curious Duncan, ever read said book?

Yes, but not for a number of years.

O.K. I was just wondering. Nothing insinuated by asking. Sometimes it helps to know peoples point of origins. I guess I just don't see it as multiple choice.

[artist4perry]

Gideon, does this mean you don't believe in evolution?

The evidence strongly swings in favor of evolution, so yes. I'm definitely not an ideal Christian.

So how does this square with your statement that you couldn't conclude that the complexity of the modern world is the result of randon accident?

Because not a shred of the evidence (that I'm familiar with, anyway) for evolution precludes the idea that a higher power was behind it.

Where did it all begin? That has not been answered. Matter cannot come from nothing. So, how did it start? Scientists cannot say for sure. Thus what and or who started it all?

Interesting discussion guys. I am going to bed. Just understand I am not offended by anyone's thoughts or belief systems. We can discuss this respectfully. And again I am not trying to make anyone see my point of view, just sharing a point of view. You do not have to agree with me.

[Rip Rokken]

I've come to realize over the years that people who argue to defend their faith to high heaven ( ), and claim no one can shake it, are the ones that actually DO have shaky faith. Those who are at peace with their faith, don't fight to defend it against those who don't share the same view. Just sayin'.

Great points. There really is no such thing as unshakable faith -- the closest thing would be unrelenting stubborness in belief. To borrow a quote I've seen, faith in the Unseen may be 10 miles wide, but it's never more than a few inches deep. In order to continue to believe many of the things fundamental Christians believe, you have to totally shut off any interest in hearing the indisputable, contradicting facts we know about the Earth, science, the reliability of scriptural manuscripts and how the Bible was put together, church history - I'm not even scratching the surface. But once the spell is broken and the rational mind that we rely on so heavily in every other area of our lives except religion kicks in, faith starts to collapse very quickly.

[Gideon]

Agreed, but where an unknown exists why insert a supernatural panacea?

Merely a choice. I'm inclined to believe that the infinite complexity of existence originated with a higher power rather than pure, unadulterated accident. I'm open to this possibility because while a true logician might not conclude that a God definitely exists, so too must that logician acknowledge the limitations of human knowledge and comprehension. I'm not so arrogant as to presume that it isn't possible that such a being exists beyond the scope of my understanding.

[Rip Rokken]

Why would God do things to make me doubt him?

My point exactly, and the biggest factor in my own deconversion. Why do things (or refuse to do things) that only lead toward to doubt or disillusionment within his followers? Has nothing to do with believers throwing a fit because things don't work out the way people think they should. Has everything to do with the Bible's promises failing with great consistency to be true, and needing to be shored up with grand, improbable leaps of logic by people who give an eternal free pass to The Almighty just because he's "God", and because our fallen minds we simply cannot comprehend his wonderful, perfect intent or timing.

Maybe the fault isn't with God...but with you?

That's EXACTLY what religion always does - points the finger back at the person instead of God or those in authority. It's potentially the most emotionally and psychologically damaging aspect of religion when things don't work out as promised, because some people beat themselves up pretty bad trying to figure out why they can't feel or hear God anymore. When it's sweet, it can seem pretty sweet, but if that placebo effect ever starts wearing off, you're in for an emotional roller-coaster.

[artist4perry]

I've come to realize over the years that people who argue to defend their faith to high heaven ( ), and claim no one can shake it, are the ones that actually DO have shaky faith. Those who are at peace with their faith, don't fight to defend it against those who don't share the same view. Just sayin'.

Great points. There really is no such thing as unshakable faith -- the closest thing would be unrelenting stubborness in belief. To borrow a quote I've seen, faith in the Unseen may be 10 miles wide, but it's never more than a few inches deep. In order to continue to believe many of the things fundamental Christians believe, you have to totally shut off any interest in hearing the indisputable, contradicting facts we know about the Earth, science, the reliability of scriptural manuscripts and how the Bible was put together, church history - I'm not even scratching the surface. But once the spell is broken and the rational mind that we rely on so heavily in every other area of our lives except religion kicks in, faith starts to collapse very quickly.

Rip, I disagree, I listen to all points of view. I have talked to people of many types of faith, and without faith. I have discussed religious origins and I have set in many science classes, heard many arguments, and tried to let others explain their points of view. I think without being able to discuss such things your faith is not challenged in any way.

It amazes me that it is O.K. for everyone to add their two cents into this discussion but Christians.

Rip do you see me as shaky in my faith? You have met me. I am far from perfect, but I would not say I am at all shaky.

Is it stubborn to love your wife, your child? Or is it natural? Maybe love for God for some people is natural. Like love of family.

[Rip Rokken]

Gideon, does this mean you don't believe in evolution?

The evidence strongly swings in favor of evolution, so yes. I'm definitely not an ideal Christian.

Evolution is a fact... "Lucy", Homo Erectus, Neanderthal Man (which actually turned out to be a different species, not a direct ancestor of modern man)... the bones don't lie.

[Duncan]

O.K. I was just wondering. Nothing insinuated by asking. Sometimes it helps to know peoples point of origins. I guess I just don't see it as multiple choice.

The fact that there are so many Christian denominations, all of whom interpret the bible differently, does suggest an element of multiple choice. Put two Christians in a room and they will disagree on the meaning of scripture.

[Don]

O.K. I was just wondering. Nothing insinuated by asking. Sometimes it helps to know peoples point of origins. I guess I just don't see it as multiple choice.

The fact that there are so many Christian denominations, all of whom interpret the bible differently, does suggest an element of multiple choice. Put two Christians in a room and they will disagree on the meaning of scripture.

Pull a Henry VIII and make your own rules for your particular church of choice.

[Gideon]

O.K. I was just wondering. Nothing insinuated by asking. Sometimes it helps to know peoples point of origins. I guess I just don't see it as multiple choice.

The fact that there are so many Christian denominations, all of whom interpret the bible differently, does suggest an element of multiple choice. Put two Christians in a room and they will disagree on the meaning of scripture.

The same phenomenon is present in law and politics. In fact, I'd argue such ambiguity is present in just about everything involving critical interpretation of language.

[artist4perry]

Gideon, does this mean you don't believe in evolution?

The evidence strongly swings in favor of evolution, so yes. I'm definitely not an ideal Christian.

Evolution is a fact... "Lucy", Homo Erectus, Neanderthal Man (which actually turned out to be a different species, not a direct ancestor of modern man)... the bones don't lie.

Many of those bones are so incomplete and were found so far apart from each other, that these "missing links" have not been found to be fact, and are not noncontroversial.

Have you ever seen the bones of Lucy? Not much there, and they were found all over a site. Not together at all.

[Rip Rokken]

The fact that there are so many Christian denominations, all of whom interpret the bible differently, does suggest an element of multiple choice. Put two Christians in a room and they will disagree on the meaning of scripture.

Begs the question, if the God who created this universe really wants to get to know us, and has a plan for us, why does he seem incapable of making his wishes known in a simple, concise, indisputable fashion that everyone can agree on?