Religion & Morality

[Andrew]

Love this exchange on antievolution.org, lol...

[color=blue]Not A Monkey: Dinosaurs fossils were planted by Satan to throw us on the wrong track, and away from the Lord. "Dinosaurs" never roamed the earth, and they never breathed. They only exist in the fossil state. Do not let Satan lead you away from the unaissailable truth the the Bible, which is God's unfaillible word.

This kind of crap is why I have issues with some over enthusiastic church folk!

[verslibre]

Yeah, another false prophet like that guy earlier this year that claimed the world was going to end in June and now in October. I NEVER trust anyone who starts naming dates.

It is usually the nondenominationals (dispensationalists) that preach Rapture theory. Many of them have attempted datesetting at some point during the last few decades. The "Rapture" is the result of some shaky interpretations of passages in Thessalonians. Rapturism is the same as Darbyism, since it was John Darby that first promoted the concept in the middle 1800s.



I must add that I do think this board is better off discussing more important topics like: how much Donald Dokken's voice has eroded, how odd Erica Martin's features are, and how Esteban Pereira's sizeable schnozz doubles for a sun dial when he lays out by his pool.

[verslibre]

Typing on a phone...auto-correct changes things.

About your poorly veiled dig....I'm not going to justify myself further. I hold knowledge on the current topic. Now if you wish to go point-counterpoint with my assertions, have at it...otherwise, the comments you've made so far aren't worth shit....

Sure, blame it on the phone!

Did you also type out this entire post on your phone:

There is a problem in decision theory known as The Prisoner's Dilemma. It is sort of a puzzle.

Suppose you live in a totalitarian society, and one day you are arrested and charged with treason. The police say that you have been plotting again the government with a man named Smith, who has also been arrested and being held in a separate cell. The interrogator demands that you confess. You protest your innocence; you say you don't even know Smith. But this does no good. It soon becomes clear that your captors are not interested in the truth.....you are going to be sent to prison no matter what. But the length of your sentence will depend on whether you confess. You are given the following information:

* if you confess, and smith does not, you will get one year in prison and smith will get ten. ( you get one year...this is the best you can hope for)

* if neither of you confess, you will each be sentenced to two years in prison. ( you get two years...this is second best)

* if you both confess, you will both be sentenced to five years in prison. ( you get five years...this is third best)

* if smith confesses and you do not, you will get the ten years and he will get only one. ( you get ten years...this is the worst that could happen to you.)

Finally, you are told that smith is being offered the same deal; but you cannot communicate with him and you have NO way of knowing what he will do...assuming your only goal is to protect your own interests....

WHAT DO YOU DO?

You should forget about helping smith. The problem is strictly about calculating what is in your own interests. The question is: What will get YOU the shortest sentence? Confessing or not confessing?

[artist4perry]

Love this exchange on antievolution.org, lol...

[color=blue]Not A Monkey: Dinosaurs fossils were planted by Satan to throw us on the wrong track, and away from the Lord. "Dinosaurs" never roamed the earth, and they never breathed. They only exist in the fossil state. Do not let Satan lead you away from the unaissailable truth the the Bible, which is God's unfaillible word.

This kind of crap is why I have issues with some over enthusiastic church folk!

I have no problem with Dinosaurs, and I have heard old people say things like this, sometimes I wonder where they get this idea. I also had an aunt once swear we never touched down on the moon. It was all a Hollywood conspiracy. Cracked me up! Even the bible talks about great creatures called the Leviathan. Wonder if they figured that out to be possibly a dinosaur. The description would lend me to think so.

[artist4perry]

Ginger...I started this thread because it is an interesting topic...plus Rip mentioned starting a separate thread in the Winehouse thread...I just did it first. My goal was not to belittle anyone. I'm not the one taking offense to anything being discussed here...but let's make one thing quite clear....I stand by my earlier comment that individuals that are proponents of Faith-based religion do appear to be of lesser intelligence...I mean It's alright for a priest to hear voices, go to seminary, and ultimately spew imaginary myths to susceptible people...but if another claims to have heard voices, voices that tell the person to do any number of things from killing someone to playing a certain lottery number - this person is looked at as bat shit crazy with mental issues....just saying.

S2M I understand now your thoughts, but I again am not Catholic. I don't believe we hear voices.

I am just saying I am not crazy, a little goofy at times but not ready for the funny farm.
And by the way my husband has a degree in Bible and was a preacher. He is not one to "hear voices". But he is knowledgeable in scripture. He is a good man and far from crazy. He is quite educated, and not trying to spew myths.

Just because you don't believe it, or can come to terms with faith, does not mean the rest of us who do are crazy.

Now Dave here is a sweet guy, smart as I can see it, and not one to "hear voices" either. Just saying.

I just wanted everyone to know I was not upset with anyone here. Not you not anyone else.

[conversationpc]

I also had an aunt once swear we never touched down on the moon. It was all a Hollywood conspiracy. Cracked me up!

S2M believes this conspiracy theory. What I posted here in response to him ended up on one of my blog entries...

http://davesdominion.wordpress.com/2009 ... fake-fake/

As everyone likely already knows, the moon landing was the brainchild of none other than presidential whipping boy George W. Bush. Since he is responsible for almost all the current ills of mankind, it wasn’t too difficult a leap to come to this conclusion. Anyway, the “landing” was staged in daddy Bush’s back yard, utilizing good ol’ Texas sand, a few strategically placed papier-mâché rocks, and some unemployed bums dressed in hazardous waste outfits.

The unemployed bums were paid well for their part and are now living comfortably in Vero Beach as part of an exclusive retirement community, where they have been given a lifetime supply of cheap beer and pork rinds. Their names have been withheld due to ongoing concerns for their safety.

[artist4perry]

I also had an aunt once swear we never touched down on the moon. It was all a Hollywood conspiracy. Cracked me up!

S2M believes this conspiracy theory. What I posted here in response to him ended up on one of my blog entries...

http://davesdominion.wordpress.com/2009 ... fake-fake/

As everyone likely already knows, the moon landing was the brainchild of none other than presidential whipping boy George W. Bush. Since he is responsible for almost all the current ills of mankind, it wasn’t too difficult a leap to come to this conclusion. Anyway, the “landing” was staged in daddy Bush’s back yard, utilizing good ol’ Texas sand, a few strategically placed papier-mâché rocks, and some unemployed bums dressed in hazardous waste outfits.

The unemployed bums were paid well for their part and are now living comfortably in Vero Beach as part of an exclusive retirement community, where they have been given a lifetime supply of cheap beer and pork rinds. Their names have been withheld due to ongoing concerns for their safety.

It's Bush's fault! LOL Did you hear voices this morning Dave? They said live long and prosper! Of course I have been watching some old Star Trek movies..................

[conversationpc]

I also had an aunt once swear we never touched down on the moon. It was all a Hollywood conspiracy. Cracked me up!

S2M believes this conspiracy theory. What I posted here in response to him ended up on one of my blog entries...

http://davesdominion.wordpress.com/2009 ... fake-fake/

As everyone likely already knows, the moon landing was the brainchild of none other than presidential whipping boy George W. Bush. Since he is responsible for almost all the current ills of mankind, it wasn’t too difficult a leap to come to this conclusion. Anyway, the “landing” was staged in daddy Bush’s back yard, utilizing good ol’ Texas sand, a few strategically placed papier-mâché rocks, and some unemployed bums dressed in hazardous waste outfits.

The unemployed bums were paid well for their part and are now living comfortably in Vero Beach as part of an exclusive retirement community, where they have been given a lifetime supply of cheap beer and pork rinds. Their names have been withheld due to ongoing concerns for their safety.

It's Bush's fault! LOL Did you hear voices this morning Dave? They said live long and prosper! Of course I have been watching some old Star Trek movies..................

The only voices I hear in my head when no one's around sound uncannily like my wife's nagging voice when she wants me to do something around the house.

[artist4perry]

I also had an aunt once swear we never touched down on the moon. It was all a Hollywood conspiracy. Cracked me up!

S2M believes this conspiracy theory. What I posted here in response to him ended up on one of my blog entries...

http://davesdominion.wordpress.com/2009 ... fake-fake/

As everyone likely already knows, the moon landing was the brainchild of none other than presidential whipping boy George W. Bush. Since he is responsible for almost all the current ills of mankind, it wasn’t too difficult a leap to come to this conclusion. Anyway, the “landing” was staged in daddy Bush’s back yard, utilizing good ol’ Texas sand, a few strategically placed papier-mâché rocks, and some unemployed bums dressed in hazardous waste outfits.

The unemployed bums were paid well for their part and are now living comfortably in Vero Beach as part of an exclusive retirement community, where they have been given a lifetime supply of cheap beer and pork rinds. Their names have been withheld due to ongoing concerns for their safety.

It's Bush's fault! LOL Did you hear voices this morning Dave? They said live long and prosper! Of course I have been watching some old Star Trek movies..................

The only voices I hear in my head when no one's around sound uncannily like my wife's nagging voice when she wants me to do something around the house.

Subliminal Messaging. Dave........Mow the lawn...............Dave.............walk the dog.............Dave.........fix the cabinet...........Dave..........pick up the trash!

[conversationpc]

My goal was not to belittle anyone. I'm not the one taking offense to anything being discussed here...but let's make one thing quite clear....I stand by my earlier comment that individuals that are proponents of Faith-based religion do appear to be of lesser intelligence.

Yeah...Right.

[artist4perry]

My goal was not to belittle anyone. I'm not the one taking offense to anything being discussed here...but let's make one thing quite clear....I stand by my earlier comment that individuals that are proponents of Faith-based religion do appear to be of lesser intelligence.

Yeah...Right.

De Duh DEEEEE! Hey Dave, they let me play with the crayons this week, an if I isa real gud I might get 2 gradumate to riddin the muole He is from that thar Satan ya know. He kicked Pa in the baby maker just last week! Ma's been right broke up about it.

[S2M]

My goal was not to belittle anyone. I'm not the one taking offense to anything being discussed here...but let's make one thing quite clear....I stand by my earlier comment that individuals that are proponents of Faith-based religion do appear to be of lesser intelligence.

Yeah...Right.

Again, is it belittling to point out the truth? Seems to be a whole lot of cherry picking going on here...I used "voices" in the context of the clergy...not that every individual hears voices. Although some might.

Personally, I think It's a crime to allow anybody to believe something that isn't true, or is getting mired in errors in logic....sue me.

Again:

Priest hears voices....good

Average Joe hears voices, wins the lottery.....crackpot

[S2M]

I also have a degree in The Brother's Grimm, Uncle Remus, Mother Goose, and Aesop. How much weight does that carry?

[conversationpc]

People who don't believe we landed on the moon appear to be less intelligent.

[artist4perry]

I also have a degree in The Brother's Grimm, Uncle Remus, Mother Goose, and Aesop. How much weight does that carry?

Depends on how heavy the Goose is. And again, just because your convinced there is no God does not make it possible. You can only speculate as such.

So basically do we base our whole lives on your opinion of what does and does not exist?

[Gideon]

Personally, I think It's a crime to allow anybody to believe something that isn't true,

You do realize you haven't the means to prove or disprove the existence of God either way, right?

[S2M]

I also have a degree in The Brother's Grimm, Uncle Remus, Mother Goose, and Aesop. How much weight does that carry?

Depends on how heavy the Goose is. And again, just because your convinced there is no God does not make it possible. You can only speculate as such.

So basically do we base our whole lives on your opinion of what does and does not exist?

Oh, I forgot...you've actually seen the face of 'god' imprinted on a section of tyvek on a neighborhood house...silly me, my bad.

[S2M]

Personally, I think It's a crime to allow anybody to believe something that isn't true,

You do realize you haven't the means to prove or disprove the existence of God either way, right?

That's the whole point...but I would rather rely on facts, than faith. That's my whole point. I admit I don't know. Believers won't admit that. They KNOW.....

[artist4perry]

I also have a degree in The Brother's Grimm, Uncle Remus, Mother Goose, and Aesop. How much weight does that carry?

Depends on how heavy the Goose is. And again, just because your convinced there is no God does not make it possible. You can only speculate as such.

So basically do we base our whole lives on your opinion of what does and does not exist?

Oh, I forgot...you've actually seen the face of 'god' imprinted on a section of tyvek on a neighborhood house...silly me, my bad.

I actually had to look tyvek up, I am not a carpenter and that was a new word on me! LOL Sorry, I have not seen the face of God. Hope to someday. But if you want I will try and put in a good word for you if I do! LOL

Now I have seen the face of Steve Perry on a grilled cheese sandwich. Does that count? LOL

[artist4perry]

Personally, I think It's a crime to allow anybody to believe something that isn't true,

You do realize you haven't the means to prove or disprove the existence of God either way, right?

That's the whole point...but I would rather rely on facts, than faith. That's my whole point. I admit I don't know. Believers won't admit that. They KNOW.....

Nope they have faith, and hope. Hope is a wonderful thing to have.

[Gideon]

Personally, I think It's a crime to allow anybody to believe something that isn't true,

You do realize you haven't the means to prove or disprove the existence of God either way, right?

That's the whole point...but I would rather rely on facts, than faith. That's my whole point. I admit I don't know. Believers won't admit that. They KNOW.....

I pointed out in this thread (earlier than you, in fact) that agnosticism, not atheism, is the only rational worldview when it comes to religion. But what believers and non-believers have in common is their inability to truly assert with any authority that one side is "right" or "true." So I'm not seeing how what Ginger believes is a crime, since you haven't the means to objectively disprove it. See what I'm getting at?

[S2M]

Again, typing on a phone...so it is difficult to use the quote feature..I apologize for that.

Anyway, I disagree with you, Gid...believers do say they KNOW, and their defense(facts) is faith. The difference is that I use facts to the conclusion that i don't know. But, there is a school of thought that says that even if you don't believe, why not just believe? What's the harm? If you're wrong, so what....but if 'They' end up being right....you make out. I don't follow that reasoning, but It's a school of thought.

[S2M]

Gideon....just so you know. You can have a logically formatted argument that is unsound.

All birds are men
All men are blue
Therefore all birds are blue

Unflappable logic....the conclusion follows directly from both premises. But the premises are untrue. Furthermore, coming to the conclusion of the existence of 'god' from untrue premises is the same concept.

[artist4perry]

Again, typing on a phone...so it is difficult to use the quote feature..I apologize for that.

Anyway, I disagree with you, Gid...believers do say they KNOW, and their defense(facts) is faith. The difference is that I use facts to the conclusion that i don't know. But, there is a school of thought that says that even if you don't believe, why not just believe? What's the harm? If you're wrong, so what....but if 'They' end up being right....you make out. I don't follow that reasoning, but It's a school of thought.

Yes, as is the concept there is no designer, or creator. Your just as emphatic at times. So much so you go to the lengths of stating that if you believe there is a God you are lacking in intelligence and locus control. So your saying you don't know now, so how could you make the assessment that believers in God are not as smart? Maybe the difference is as I have stated before.


Some folks want to only believe in what they can see and touch.

Some believe their can be things that exist that are unseen.

You put two people of this mindset in a box. Some can conceive there is something outside of a box. They cannot see it, but they believe it exists.

Some only believe in what they can see in the box, if it is outside of the box, it cannot exist.

It depends on how you look at things.

[Rip Rokken]

I stand by my earlier comment that individuals that are proponents of Faith-based religion do appear to be of lesser intelligence...

I think that's absolutely false. Maybe if anything they lean toward less analytical, or at least self-analytical, but I've always been extremely analytical yet never questioned the basic tenets of my faith until my 4th decade of life. Has nothing to do with intelligence - it has to do with the way we were raised. I do feel strongly that if I hadn't been raised in a Christian household and had never accepted Christ, and someone today tried to preach the Gospel to me, I doubt as an outsider with a rational mind there is any way I could be persuaded, for all the reasons I've listed before. I'd not see enough "divine" aspects in believers or the church as a whole to convince me there was any supernatural power behind it. The God they were preaching should be doing much better than that, then I'd pay attention.

[artist4perry]

Gideon....just so you know. You can have a logically formatted argument that is unsound.

All birds are men
All men are blue
Therefore all birds are blue

Unflappable logic....the conclusion follows directly from both premises. But the premises are untrue. Furthermore, coming to the conclusion of the existence of 'god' from untrue premises is the same concept.

So is all people who believe in God are less intelligent.

Absolutes are absolutes.

And does it not stand to reason, if nature is of a good design, in the instance that most plants, animals, and life are symbiotic in nature. Meaning that each supports the other. Insects are designed to break down plant and animal remains. Plants sustain life of animals but rely on sun and rain as well. A well designed system. Things grow, live, and die in a cycle. All creating a purpose for the sustaining of new life. Hardly accidental at all.

[Rip Rokken]

I also had an aunt once swear we never touched down on the moon. It was all a Hollywood conspiracy. Cracked me up!

S2M believes this conspiracy theory.

Are you serious? S2M, is this true? What are your reasons? Reminds me of that video I posted of Christopher Hitchens vs. Mos Def, where "Mr. Definitely" as Hitch calls him indicates that he thinks Bin Laden isn't real, lol. Dude, fo shizzle?!?

[artist4perry]

I stand by my earlier comment that individuals that are proponents of Faith-based religion do appear to be of lesser intelligence...

I think that's absolutely false. Maybe if anything they lean toward less analytical, or at least self-analytical, but I've always been extremely analytical yet never questioned the basic tenets of my faith until my 4th decade of life. Has nothing to do with intelligence - it has to do with the way we were raised. I do feel strongly that if I hadn't been raised in a Christian household and had never accepted Christ, and someone today tried to preach the Gospel to me, I doubt as an outsider with a rational mind there is any way I could be persuaded, for all the reasons I've listed before. I'd not see enough "divine" aspects in believers or the church as a whole to convince me there was any supernatural power behind it. The God they were preaching should be doing much better than that, then I'd pay attention.

Rip did you know my Dan was not raised in the church at all? He did not go to church till he was an older teen. And he wanted to go, not because anyone tried to make him. He was curious. He then later went to school to study to be a preacher. His mom did not go to church till she moved out here with us, she wanted to go, no one coerced her. She wanted to learn. See, not all are raised in the church or have to have heard it all their life to believe someday.

[S2M]

Gideon....just so you know. You can have a logically formatted argument that is unsound.

All birds are men
All men are blue
Therefore all birds are blue

Unflappable logic....the conclusion follows directly from both premises. But the premises are untrue. Furthermore, coming to the conclusion of the existence of 'god' from untrue premises is the same concept.

So is all people who believe in God are less intelligent.

Absolutes are absolutes.

And does it not stand to reason, if nature is of a good design, in the instance that most plants, animals, and life are symbiotic in nature. Meaning that each supports the other. Insects are designed to break down plant and animal remains. Plants sustain life of animals but rely on sun and rain as well. A well designed system. Things grow, live, and die in a cycle. All creating a purpose for the sustaining of new life. Hardly accidental at all.

False conclusion, Ginger....how do you arrive at a definitive conclusion based on your previous premises? Now I have also questioned the order of things as a reason for my agnostic views, but what I can't do is come to a final conclusion based on those questions....

[artist4perry]

Gideon....just so you know. You can have a logically formatted argument that is unsound.

All birds are men
All men are blue
Therefore all birds are blue

Unflappable logic....the conclusion follows directly from both premises. But the premises are untrue. Furthermore, coming to the conclusion of the existence of 'god' from untrue premises is the same concept.

So is all people who believe in God are less intelligent.

Absolutes are absolutes.

And does it not stand to reason, if nature is of a good design, in the instance that most plants, animals, and life are symbiotic in nature. Meaning that each supports the other. Insects are designed to break down plant and animal remains. Plants sustain life of animals but rely on sun and rain as well. A well designed system. Things grow, live, and die in a cycle. All creating a purpose for the sustaining of new life. Hardly accidental at all.

False conclusion, Ginger....how do you arrive at a definitive conclusion based on your previous premises? Now I have also questioned the order of things as a reason for my agnostic views, but what I can't do is come to a final conclusion based on those questions....

Because it is the way it has been since the beginning of life itself. Are you saying life does not happen in cycles? And that there is no symbiotic cycle of life? That is a scientific premise is it not? I did not state that it had a designer, but that it is well designed! The cycles work well together.