Religion & Morality

[S2M]

Ok...it looks as though I have to be more specific with you....yes, there is a definite order(first conclusion), but as what attributed to that order(a second, missing conclusion) - I'm not ready to say....

[artist4perry]

Ok...it looks as though I have to be more specific with you....yes, there is a definite order(first conclusion), but as what attributed to that order(a second, missing conclusion) - I'm not ready to say....

That is where we differ is it not? Mostly on origin.
Now, there are differing theories in science yes? So since neither theory is conclusive, can we not agree to respect the differences of thoughts on the subject?

I understand you are highly analytical. I am more of an abstract thinker, I also think analytically, but I can concede to an unseen variable. Maybe there is some abstract thinking in your processes. But as a whole none of us really know for 100 percent either way.

I choose to respectfully give you the right to differ in your thinking from mine, but I expect the same rationality in return.

[conversationpc]

The 'age of accountability' is a Christian tenet that preserves the immortal soul of a child in these sort of circumstances. That's one of the things that used to trouble me about my faith until I did a little digging.

I believe God sees children as innocents. Free of sin. Age of Accountability is one who knows right from wrong. Not a child, even an adolescent cannot fully understand right and wrong. I see them as safe.

Honest question - I've never seen the verses that support this (and they may be there). I may be mistaken but I believe I read just recently that this was a Catholic doctrine that was introduced sometime in the past. Can this be supported with the Bible?

There are two places in the Bible that this is gleaned from, if I remember correctly. One is the Old Testament story of King David when he's mourning for his dead child and he says "But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." (II Samuel, 12:23). The other would be what Ginger already mentioned, Jesus' teaching on the Kingdom of Heaven belonging to those who are like children, i.e. innocent.

[artist4perry]

http://youtu.be/_QZjJU-mtFU

This song is very moving to me. Maybe some of you remember it, some don't. I like what it says. Regardless of how you see things as far as thoughts, I think and this is personal thought we need to care and love for each other while here.

I just thought of this song not long ago.


Hope some enjoy.

[Rip Rokken]

The 'age of accountability' is a Christian tenet that preserves the immortal soul of a child in these sort of circumstances. That's one of the things that used to trouble me about my faith until I did a little digging.

I believe God sees children as innocents. Free of sin. Age of Accountability is one who knows right from wrong. Not a child, even an adolescent cannot fully understand right and wrong. I see them as safe.

Honest question - I've never seen the verses that support this (and they may be there). I may be mistaken but I believe I read just recently that this was a Catholic doctrine that was introduced sometime in the past. Can this be supported with the Bible?

There are two places in the Bible that this is gleaned from, if I remember correctly. One is the Old Testament story of King David when he's mourning for his dead child and he says "But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." (II Samuel, 12:23). The other would be what Ginger already mentioned, Jesus' teaching on the Kingdom of Heaven belonging to those who are like children, i.e. innocent.

I wonder what the age cutoff is though, because Jehovah roasted lots of kids in the O.T. Plus this begs the question regarding us being "born into sin". According to the Bible we are lost right out of the gate.

[conversationpc]

I wonder what the age cutoff is though, because Jehovah roasted lots of kids in the O.T. Plus this begs the question regarding us being "born into sin". According to the Bible we are lost right out of the gate.

Being born into sin and being capable of being responsible for one's own sin are two different things, in my opinion. If the child in David's case was born into sin and going to hell as you seem to be indicating, explain to me how David was going to see him again unless David also thought he was going to end up in hell also.

[artist4perry]

The 'age of accountability' is a Christian tenet that preserves the immortal soul of a child in these sort of circumstances. That's one of the things that used to trouble me about my faith until I did a little digging.

I believe God sees children as innocents. Free of sin. Age of Accountability is one who knows right from wrong. Not a child, even an adolescent cannot fully understand right and wrong. I see them as safe.

Honest question - I've never seen the verses that support this (and they may be there). I may be mistaken but I believe I read just recently that this was a Catholic doctrine that was introduced sometime in the past. Can this be supported with the Bible?

There are two places in the Bible that this is gleaned from, if I remember correctly. One is the Old Testament story of King David when he's mourning for his dead child and he says "But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." (II Samuel, 12:23). The other would be what Ginger already mentioned, Jesus' teaching on the Kingdom of Heaven belonging to those who are like children, i.e. innocent.

I wonder what the age cutoff is though, because Jehovah roasted lots of kids in the O.T. Plus this begs the question regarding us being "born into sin". According to the Bible we are lost right out of the gate.

I don't buy into the belief we are "born into sin".
As for the other verse here: Luke 18:16 >>> But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Matthew
Chapter 18

1
1 At that time the disciples 2 approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2
He called a child over, placed it in their midst,
3
and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
4
Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5
4 And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.
6
"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7

[artist4perry]

Another thing you might want to think on Rip. Does a baby harbor sin in its heart? Can a baby lust? Can you look at a baby and think it is depraved? Does a baby think evil? Do we refer to children as innocent?

I guess we all have our takes on things and this is not to offend. But it makes no sense to say that a child (if you believe we are created) is created evil. How can God create evil? I don't buy it. I think we are corrupted by sin when we are old enough to know what is right and wrong and chose to do wrong anyway. Sin is choice, not inherited. I know many think differently, and I respect your difference of thought.

[Rip Rokken]

I admit I don't know. Believers won't admit that. They KNOW.....

Nope they have faith, and hope. Hope is a wonderful thing to have.

Hope IS a powerful thing, and personally I think it's the secret for why religion can (operative word there) improve the quality of life for people. It's the reason I readily admit that I wish I could still believe. Life for me is great now, and I have no regrets, but I still occasionally miss that part of my former life. It's very much like a heartbreak - some piece of it will always be with me.

[Duncan]

Again, typing on a phone...so it is difficult to use the quote feature..I apologize for that.

Anyway, I disagree with you, Gid...believers do say they KNOW, and their defense(facts) is faith. The difference is that I use facts to the conclusion that i don't know. But, there is a school of thought that says that even if you don't believe, why not just believe? What's the harm? If you're wrong, so what....but if 'They' end up being right....you make out. I don't follow that reasoning, but It's a school of thought.

Yes, as is the concept there is no designer, or creator. Your just as emphatic at times. So much so you go to the lengths of stating that if you believe there is a God you are lacking in intelligence and locus control. So your saying you don't know now, so how could you make the assessment that believers in God are not as smart? Maybe the difference is as I have stated before.


Some folks want to only believe in what they can see and touch.

Some believe their can be things that exist that are unseen.

You put two people of this mindset in a box. Some can conceive there is something outside of a box. They cannot see it, but they believe it exists.

Some only believe in what they can see in the box, if it is outside of the box, it cannot exist.

It depends on how you look at things.

I agree with the part i have put in bold. What I don't understand is why it is neccessary to ascribe God to what is not yet known?

[Rip Rokken]

Rip did you know my Dan was not raised in the church at all? He did not go to church till he was an older teen. And he wanted to go, not because anyone tried to make him. He was curious. He then later went to school to study to be a preacher. His mom did not go to church till she moved out here with us, she wanted to go, no one coerced her. She wanted to learn. See, not all are raised in the church or have to have heard it all their life to believe someday.

I didn't know that, that's very cool. Did he ever go into active ministry?

I do want to clarify, I didn't mean that only people raised in church go for Christianity -- that's obviously not the case at all Everybody wants hope for the future, or a sense that they are ok, accepted. Tons of people come to Christianity later in life, no doubt. For people wired the way I am, I'm just venturing to guess, probably less than other types.

[artist4perry]

I admit I don't know. Believers won't admit that. They KNOW.....

Nope they have faith, and hope. Hope is a wonderful thing to have.

Hope IS a powerful thing, and personally I think it's the secret for why religion can (operative word there) improve the quality of life for people. It's the reason I readily admit that I wish I could still believe. Life for me is great now, and I have no regrets, but I still occasionally miss that part of my former life. It's very much like a heartbreak - some piece of it will always be with me.

Hope springs eternal. And you may not always feel the same. But as far as a good person, I see a good person in you. I hope you will always leave a door open.

[artist4perry]

Rip did you know my Dan was not raised in the church at all? He did not go to church till he was an older teen. And he wanted to go, not because anyone tried to make him. He was curious. He then later went to school to study to be a preacher. His mom did not go to church till she moved out here with us, she wanted to go, no one coerced her. She wanted to learn. See, not all are raised in the church or have to have heard it all their life to believe someday.

I didn't know that, that's very cool. Did he ever go into active ministry?

I do want to clarify, I didn't mean that only people raised in church go for Christianity -- that's obviously not the case at all Everybody wants hope for the future, or a sense that they are ok, accepted. Tons of people come to Christianity later in life, no doubt. For people wired the way I am, I'm just venturing to guess, probably less than other types.

Dan was preaching in his younger days. He had a bad divorce, and only preaches on occasions now.

He loves the job he has now attending to handicapped adults. He feels he is tending to those who need a great deal of love. He loves his job, and boy do they love him! He keeps them laughing. And as I said, what great thing for a man to do than to give to those whom most of the world look down on with disdain.

I got what you said. But just wanted you to know there were different circumstances.

[Duncan]

The 'age of accountability' is a Christian tenet that preserves the immortal soul of a child in these sort of circumstances. That's one of the things that used to trouble me about my faith until I did a little digging.

I believe God sees children as innocents. Free of sin. Age of Accountability is one who knows right from wrong. Not a child, even an adolescent cannot fully understand right and wrong. I see them as safe.

Honest question - I've never seen the verses that support this (and they may be there). I may be mistaken but I believe I read just recently that this was a Catholic doctrine that was introduced sometime in the past. Can this be supported with the Bible?

There are two places in the Bible that this is gleaned from, if I remember correctly. One is the Old Testament story of King David when he's mourning for his dead child and he says "But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." (II Samuel, 12:23). The other would be what Ginger already mentioned, Jesus' teaching on the Kingdom of Heaven belonging to those who are like children, i.e. innocent.

Not exactly clear and unabiguous is it? Would have been better had he said, "if I create a child and then decide to kill it, don't worry it will go to heaven and as long as you continue to believe in me when you die you can go there too and make up for lost time, but in the meantime you will have to endure a lifetime of grief, loss and possibly guilt"

[Duncan]

I admit I don't know. Believers won't admit that. They KNOW.....

Nope they have faith, and hope. Hope is a wonderful thing to have.

Hope IS a powerful thing, and personally I think it's the secret for why religion can (operative word there) improve the quality of life for people. It's the reason I readily admit that I wish I could still believe. Life for me is great now, and I have no regrets, but I still occasionally miss that part of my former life. It's very much like a heartbreak - some piece of it will always be with me.

Hope springs eternal. And you may not always feel the same. But as far as a good person, I see a good person in you. I hope you will always leave a door open.

Do you believe Rip is going to hell?

[artist4perry]

Again, typing on a phone...so it is difficult to use the quote feature..I apologize for that.

Anyway, I disagree with you, Gid...believers do say they KNOW, and their defense(facts) is faith. The difference is that I use facts to the conclusion that i don't know. But, there is a school of thought that says that even if you don't believe, why not just believe? What's the harm? If you're wrong, so what....but if 'They' end up being right....you make out. I don't follow that reasoning, but It's a school of thought.

Yes, as is the concept there is no designer, or creator. Your just as emphatic at times. So much so you go to the lengths of stating that if you believe there is a God you are lacking in intelligence and locus control. So your saying you don't know now, so how could you make the assessment that believers in God are not as smart? Maybe the difference is as I have stated before.


Some folks want to only believe in what they can see and touch.

Some believe their can be things that exist that are unseen.

You put two people of this mindset in a box. Some can conceive there is something outside of a box. They cannot see it, but they believe it exists.

Some only believe in what they can see in the box, if it is outside of the box, it cannot exist.

It depends on how you look at things.

I agree with the part i have put in bold. What I don't understand is why it is neccessary to ascribe God to what is not yet known?

Because thinking of God is to believe in the unseen. It is an abstract thought. It is not what you can concretely hold in ones hand. You cannot see God but you can believe in his existence.

[Rip Rokken]

I wonder what the age cutoff is though, because Jehovah roasted lots of kids in the O.T. Plus this begs the question regarding us being "born into sin". According to the Bible we are lost right out of the gate.

Being born into sin and being capable of being responsible for one's own sin are two different things, in my opinion. If the child in David's case was born into sin and going to hell as you seem to be indicating, explain to me how David was going to see him again unless David also thought he was going to end up in hell also.

You mention it as your opinion -- is there any firm doctrine on it?

No, wasn't indicating that about the child in David's case - I took that verse as it read. I was pointing out the contradiction, because God had no problems judging and wasting plenty of kids in other parts of the O.T. Surely there were some babies in Sodom & Gomorrah... and certainly in the world at the time of the great flood. Do you think maybe God just wiped out their bodies but spared the souls?

[artist4perry]

I admit I don't know. Believers won't admit that. They KNOW.....

Nope they have faith, and hope. Hope is a wonderful thing to have.

Hope IS a powerful thing, and personally I think it's the secret for why religion can (operative word there) improve the quality of life for people. It's the reason I readily admit that I wish I could still believe. Life for me is great now, and I have no regrets, but I still occasionally miss that part of my former life. It's very much like a heartbreak - some piece of it will always be with me.

Hope springs eternal. And you may not always feel the same. But as far as a good person, I see a good person in you. I hope you will always leave a door open.

Do you believe Rip is going to hell?

That is not mine to decide.

[Rip Rokken]

I wonder what the age cutoff is though, because Jehovah roasted lots of kids in the O.T. Plus this begs the question regarding us being "born into sin". According to the Bible we are lost right out of the gate.

I don't buy into the belief we are "born into sin".
As for the other verse here: Luke 18:16 >>> But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Matthew
Chapter 18

1
1 At that time the disciples 2 approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2
He called a child over, placed it in their midst,
3
and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
4
Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5
4 And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.
6
"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
7

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."

Romans 3:10 "There is no one righteous, not even one..."

As for the verses about becoming like a little child, I always believed this to be talking about having "childlike faith", or, simple faith without questions or reasoning. And of course I took this as a good thing - don't question, just obey, and do it with happiness! Christians actually get stoked when it comes to following the paradoxical nature of God's requests, and where they part from reason. Same went with me - I might know something was absurd on the surface (like Peter walking out on the water to meet Jesus), but I was just beaming knowing that I was doing it anyway -- Hallelujah! And the irony of inverted justice -- who wouldn't like that? That the rich and powerful will be brought low, and the poorest and the meekest among us will inherit the lion's share.

These days I see all this stuff for what it is, and take it as it appears. Belief without questioning is blessed, and independent thought is discouraged. If it was unique to Christianity that would be one thing, but not only is it common with most if not all theocratic religions, but in just about every political system we see today from ours, to communist states, to dictatorships. In politics we associate those things with evil leadership, and absolutely recognize it for what it is in cults -- why not mainstream religion?

[conversationpc]

I wonder what the age cutoff is though, because Jehovah roasted lots of kids in the O.T. Plus this begs the question regarding us being "born into sin". According to the Bible we are lost right out of the gate.

Being born into sin and being capable of being responsible for one's own sin are two different things, in my opinion. If the child in David's case was born into sin and going to hell as you seem to be indicating, explain to me how David was going to see him again unless David also thought he was going to end up in hell also.

You mention it as your opinion -- is there any firm doctrine on it?

I don't know.

No, wasn't indicating that about the child in David's case - I took that verse as it read. I was pointing out the contradiction, because God had no problems judging and wasting plenty of kids in other parts of the O.T. Surely there were some babies in Sodom & Gomorrah... and certainly in the world at the time of the great flood. Do you think maybe God just wiped out their bodies but spared the souls?

As stated previously, I don't believe God holds children accountable if they aren't yet aware of their own sin.

[conversationpc]

I might know something was absurd on the surface (like Peter walking out on the water to meet Jesus)

If God exists, then he is a supernatural being, yes? Doesn't it follow that if he's a supernatural being, he can do things that aren't within or normal, natural capabilities?

Belief without questioning is blessed, and independent thought is discouraged.

Really? Perhaps you were hanging out with the wrong crowd? I've seen this stuff talked about and debated in the Christian community ad infinitum.

[Rip Rokken]

Do you believe Rip is going to hell?

That is not mine to decide.

Hahaha... How could she possibly be happy in Heaven knowing I (or any friend or loved one) was roasting in Hell?

But the Biblical answer from the Calvanist point of view at least is "NO" - I can't. It's the doctrine of Eternal Security, or "once saved, always saved". And the Bible says, "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." Also several verses talking about how the good work he began, he will finish, and how nobody can snatch us out of his hand.

That's the kicker, and the only explanation most Christians have for me or the tons and tons of people just like me is that we were never really saved to begin with - otherwise, we couldn't be here. And the answer I or any of the others I've met or listened to will shoot right back at them is, "If I didn't really believe, then nobody can really believe." I never even entertained any serious doubts about my faith until just a few years ago, so how is that not belief?

So I can assure all my concerned friends that I have 0% chance of going to Hell. According to the Bible, I'll eventually have to be recovered to the faith and complete my process of sanctification, then spend eternity singing praises to the Almighty. Oh, joy.

[conversationpc]

Do you believe Rip is going to hell?

That is not mine to decide.

Hahaha... How could she possibly be happy in Heaven knowing I (or any friend or loved one) was roasting in Hell?

But the Biblical answer from the Calvanist point of view at least is "NO" - I can't. It's the doctrine of Eternal Security, or "once saved, always saved". And the Bible says, "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." Also several verses talking about how the good work he began, he will finish, and how nobody can snatch us out of his hand.

That's the kicker, and the only explanation most Christians have for me or the tons and tons of people just like me is that we were never really saved to begin with - otherwise, we couldn't be here. And the answer I or any of the others I've met or listened to will shoot right back at them is, "If I didn't really believe, then nobody can really believe."

So I can assure all my concerned friends that I have 0% chance of going to Hell. According to the Bible, I'll eventually have to be recovered to the faith and complete my process of sanctification, then spend eternity singing praises to the Almighty. Oh, joy.

I'm pretty sure Ginger didn't deserve that bit of condescension.

[artist4perry]

Do you believe Rip is going to hell?

That is not mine to decide.

Hahaha... How could she possibly be happy in Heaven knowing I (or any friend or loved one) was roasting in Hell?

But the Biblical answer from the Calvanist point of view at least is "NO" - I can't. It's the doctrine of Eternal Security, or "once saved, always saved". And the Bible says, "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." Also several verses talking about how the good work he began, he will finish, and how nobody can snatch us out of his hand.

That's the kicker, and the only explanation most Christians have for me or the tons and tons of people just like me is that we were never really saved to begin with - otherwise, we couldn't be here. And the answer I or any of the others I've met or listened to will shoot right back at them is, "If I didn't really believe, then nobody can really believe." I never even entertained any serious doubts about my faith until just a few years ago, so how is that not belief?

So I can assure all my concerned friends that I have 0% chance of going to Hell. According to the Bible, I'll eventually have to be recovered to the faith and complete my process of sanctification, then spend eternity singing praises to the Almighty. Oh, joy.

Rip, I don't believe in once saved always saved. I think one can fall from grace. But again I am not God so who am I to say who will and who will not be welcomed there? Only God can make such a judgment.

I think only you can say if you believe or not. I think one can believe and lose faith. Happens all the time.

[Rip Rokken]

Being born into sin and being capable of being responsible for one's own sin are two different things, in my opinion. If the child in David's case was born into sin and going to hell as you seem to be indicating, explain to me how David was going to see him again unless David also thought he was going to end up in hell also.

You mention it as your opinion -- is there any firm doctrine on it?

I don't know.

So our doctrines can be simply opinions...

No, wasn't indicating that about the child in David's case - I took that verse as it read. I was pointing out the contradiction, because God had no problems judging and wasting plenty of kids in other parts of the O.T. Surely there were some babies in Sodom & Gomorrah... and certainly in the world at the time of the great flood. Do you think maybe God just wiped out their bodies but spared the souls?

As stated previously, I don't believe God holds children accountable if they aren't yet aware of their own sin.

There is that "gut truth" again. Seriously, it's a perfectly reasonable, rational and fair notion that very young children can't be held accountable for something they clearly don't understand. But that comes from our own native human sense of morality - not God's. Remember we are talking about a being who will sentence someone to a lifetime of what we would absolutely consider "cruel and unusual punishment" for the simple crime of disbelief, or independent thought.

I should dig up the verse, but there are some that talk about God smearing feces on people or making them eat their own caca as part of their punishment. What is remotely humane about that? Or maybe it's not - just divine.

[artist4perry]

I might know something was absurd on the surface (like Peter walking out on the water to meet Jesus)

If God exists, then he is a supernatural being, yes? Doesn't it follow that if he's a supernatural being, he can do things that aren't within or normal, natural capabilities?

Belief without questioning is blessed, and independent thought is discouraged.

Really? Perhaps you were hanging out with the wrong crowd? I've seen this stuff talked about and debated in the Christian community ad infinitum.

Me too! LOL Deep discussions, debates, questions, if one never questions how does one learn?

[Rip Rokken]

I'm pretty sure Ginger didn't deserve that bit of condescension.

Out of time right now, but wanted to reply that none was intended and I apologize if it appeared that way. I was amused at Duncan's question, and Ginger and I are tight - I could never intentionally treat her with anything less than respect.

[Rip Rokken]

Rip, I don't believe in once saved always saved. I think one can fall from grace. But again I am not God so who am I to say who will and who will not be welcomed there? Only God can make such a judgment.

I think only you can say if you believe or not. I think one can believe and lose faith. Happens all the time.

Are you Church of Christ by chance?

[conversationpc]

Being born into sin and being capable of being responsible for one's own sin are two different things, in my opinion. If the child in David's case was born into sin and going to hell as you seem to be indicating, explain to me how David was going to see him again unless David also thought he was going to end up in hell also.

You mention it as your opinion -- is there any firm doctrine on it?

I don't know.

So our doctrines can be simply opinions...

I'm not trying to avoid the question. When I say "I don't know" that means exactly what it says.

See, this is probably the one thing that really irks me about some atheists/agnostics. You can't admit that you don't know something (no one knows everything) without having the other person either belittling you for not being all-knowing, questioning your motives regardless of how pure they are, or getting in a dig in one way or another. Of course, heaven forbid that science can't always explain things, either.

[conversationpc]

I'm pretty sure Ginger didn't deserve that bit of condescension.

Out of time right now, but wanted to reply that none was intended and I apologize if it appeared that way. I was amused at Duncan's question, and Ginger and I are tight - I could never intentionally treat her with anything less than respect.

Gotcha.