Religion & Morality

[artist4perry]

Being born into sin and being capable of being responsible for one's own sin are two different things, in my opinion. If the child in David's case was born into sin and going to hell as you seem to be indicating, explain to me how David was going to see him again unless David also thought he was going to end up in hell also.

You mention it as your opinion -- is there any firm doctrine on it?

I don't know.

So our doctrines can be simply opinions...

No, wasn't indicating that about the child in David's case - I took that verse as it read. I was pointing out the contradiction, because God had no problems judging and wasting plenty of kids in other parts of the O.T. Surely there were some babies in Sodom & Gomorrah... and certainly in the world at the time of the great flood. Do you think maybe God just wiped out their bodies but spared the souls?

As stated previously, I don't believe God holds children accountable if they aren't yet aware of their own sin.

There is that "gut truth" again. Seriously, it's a perfectly reasonable, rational and fair notion that very young children can't be held accountable for something they clearly don't understand. But that comes from our own native human sense of morality - not God's. Remember we are talking about a being who will sentence someone to a lifetime of what we would absolutely consider "cruel and unusual punishment" for the simple crime of disbelief, or independent thought.

I should dig up the verse, but there are some that talk about God smearing feces on people or making them eat their own caca as part of their punishment. What is remotely humane about that? Or maybe it's not - just divine.

Rip find me one scripture that says a baby is lost, depraved, sinful. It says man is sinful. A man is not a baby.

[artist4perry]

Rip, I don't believe in once saved always saved. I think one can fall from grace. But again I am not God so who am I to say who will and who will not be welcomed there? Only God can make such a judgment.

I think only you can say if you believe or not. I think one can believe and lose faith. Happens all the time.

Are you Church of Christ by chance?

Yes

No offense taken.

[conversationpc]

Rip, I don't believe in once saved always saved. I think one can fall from grace. But again I am not God so who am I to say who will and who will not be welcomed there? Only God can make such a judgment.

I think only you can say if you believe or not. I think one can believe and lose faith. Happens all the time.

Are you Church of Christ by chance?

Yes

No offense taken.

This is an area where Ginger and I don't agree. Yet we can be friends and kind towards one another. Feel the love, man!

[artist4perry]

Rip, I don't believe in once saved always saved. I think one can fall from grace. But again I am not God so who am I to say who will and who will not be welcomed there? Only God can make such a judgment.

I think only you can say if you believe or not. I think one can believe and lose faith. Happens all the time.

Are you Church of Christ by chance?

Yes

No offense taken.

This is an area where Ginger and I don't agree. Yet we can be friends and kind towards one another. Feel the love, man!

I know many have that stance on once saved always saved. Also some believe in the Rapture. I for one do not. I don't think some are destined for heaven no matter what they do in life, while others are destined to be lost no matter what they do or believe. I don't believe heaven will be on earth. Probably quite a few differences in thoughts.

But I can agree that I look on you as a friend Dave. And these are matters we could always discuss without bad feelings. I am not trying to convert you guys. Just discussing theology.

[Rhiannon]

Haven't we had this thread about fifteen times already? If one really believed unwaveringly in their superior knowledge and opinion, especially on this topic, they would not feel compelled to flaunt it by birthing a flagrant argument about it. Because it's pointless, absolutely pointless to do so. The user illusion comes to mind strongly when these debates emerge.

It was also completely pointless to craft this post, but being deluded in my perception on human interaction, I felt compelled to have a say also.

Bacon. Lolcats. Flying Spaghetti Monster. Jesus. Dinosaurs.

[conversationpc]

Haven't we had this thread about fifteen times already? If one really believed unwaveringly in their superior knowledge and opinion, especially on this topic, they would not feel compelled to flaunt it by birthing a flagrant argument about it. Because it's pointless, absolutely pointless to do so. The user illusion comes to mind strongly when these debates emerge.

It was also completely pointless to craft this post, but being deluded in my perception on human interaction, I felt compelled to have a say also.

Bacon. Lolcats. Flying Spaghetti Monster. Jesus. Dinosaurs.

I think it's been a fun and fairly interesting discussion, for the most part.

[artist4perry]

I just like theological and non theological thoughts and discussions. Took classes on the subjects in Advanced art history. I learned a great deal about other religions, agnosticism, atheism, etc. I think as long as it is respectful it can be a good discussion.

Rhi I think I understand what your saying girl. Editted because of better understanding.

[Rhiannon]

I think it's been a fun and fairly interesting discussion, for the most part.

Fair enough. Just the topic comes up like clockwork every few months. You'd think everybody would have it sorted out by now. Nothing's changed. There hasn't been a recent visit to the Earth from a deistic being. The moon is still rolling around. No new chapters to a sacred scripture added to the cannon.

My point was that these discussions are usually begun by the against-religion crowd. And there's no point in doing that if they really feel confident in their views. And the irony of making a pointless post about a pointless post.

I wasn't talking to the discussion as a whole. Just the topic... returning... again... it's the message board equivalent of another Final Destination movie.

[artist4perry]

I think it's been a fun and fairly interesting discussion, for the most part.

Fair enough. Just the topic comes up like clockwork every few months. You'd think everybody would have it sorted out by now. Nothing's changed. There hasn't been a recent visit to the Earth from a deistic being. The moon is still rolling around. No new chapters to a sacred scripture added to the cannon.

My point was that these discussions are usually begun by the against-religion crowd. And there's no point in doing that if they really feel confident in their views. And the irony of making a pointless post about a pointless post.

I wasn't talking to the discussion as a whole. Just the topic... returning... again... it's the message board equivalent of another Final Destination movie.

I get where your coming from. I felt that way at first. But I have always loved the discussions of theology, and history. I took two Advanced art history classes where we openly discussed differences of the history of religion, how arts were affected by the church of the time, and I have discussed religions with Muslims and other faiths. I see it as a curiosity to know what others believe. I have always loved discussions that are fair and open minded.
If it sways back to the old my way is better than your way and your an idiot for not seeing it my way, then I think it no longer is a learning thing. It becomes too dogmatic and ugly.

[Rhiannon]

I get where your coming from. I felt that way at first. But I have always loved the discussions of theology, and history. I took two Advanced art history classes where we openly discussed differences of the history of religion, how arts were affected by the church of the time, and I have discussed religions with Muslims and other faiths. I see it as a curiosity to know what others believe. I have always loved discussions that are fair and open minded.
If it sways back to the old my way is better than your way and your an idiot for not seeing it my way, then I think it no longer is a learning thing. It becomes too dogmatic and ugly.

This is my own "karma" (shall I call it?) for butting-in. I agree with you totally, but fully admit to not reading the thread at all. I haven't looked at this site in a long time & this was the first thing I saw. So, I did a dreadful general reply "ah THIS again", and in turn proved my own irony about being pointless. Quite brilliant how the Universe works. (Do we blame that one on design or random chance? ...The Universe. What about the meta-universes beyond our universe or multiverse?) I love the different takes on the topic myself, I'm just humored that it's usually atheists who bring up the discussion. Not ALL atheists. Dear Buddha, don't want to get misread again. But I may be confusing atheism with nihilism again. Nothing at all wrong with either philosophy, by the way... since at the end of the day, all any of this boils down to is philosophy. One that we wear around our identity like a dogmatic skin. And an illusory medium that is as well.

[artist4perry]

I get where your coming from. I felt that way at first. But I have always loved the discussions of theology, and history. I took two Advanced art history classes where we openly discussed differences of the history of religion, how arts were affected by the church of the time, and I have discussed religions with Muslims and other faiths. I see it as a curiosity to know what others believe. I have always loved discussions that are fair and open minded.
If it sways back to the old my way is better than your way and your an idiot for not seeing it my way, then I think it no longer is a learning thing. It becomes too dogmatic and ugly.

This is my own "karma" (shall I call it?) for butting-in. I agree with you totally, but fully admit to not reading the thread at all. I haven't looked at this site in a long time & this was the first thing I saw. So, I did a dreadful general reply "ah THIS again", and in turn proved my own irony about being pointless. Quite brilliant how the Universe works. (Do we blame that one on design or random chance? ...The Universe. What about the meta-universes beyond our universe or multiverse?) I love the different takes on the topic myself, I'm just humored that it's usually atheists who bring up the discussion. Not ALL atheists. Dear Buddha, don't want to get misread again. But I may be confusing atheism with nihilism again. Nothing at all wrong with either philosophy, by the way... since at the end of the day, all any of this boils down to is philosophy. One that we wear around our identity like a dogmatic skin. And an illusory medium that is as well.

I vote we all go out and get some Starbucks.

[S2M]

I had thought I already explained why this thread was started....every so often I kinda crave a little more cranial stimulus than what journey song was heard at which sporting event last night, or in the background of such and such movie....

I've been thinking about all my previous posts on this topic...in this thread, and the others that have been discussed over the years. As ginger said, I'm extremely analytical. So much so that I've often heard from people, "what the fuck are you talking about?!". My mind is a constant amalgamation of thought...I know others here can understand what I'm talking about...I'm not referring to actual substance of thought...topic of thought doesn't matter. It's speed of thought, and trying to type AND speak at my own level of thought. As a child I would stutter and stammer when trying to get my thoughts across...part of it was shyness and nerves, but a great deal of it was not being able to talk as fast as my mind was working....how this relates to this topic is that whatever is written by me here is not nearly what i have worked out in my mind....

When I read a response within the pages of this topic I immediately filter it through my logic knowledge....an inductive reasoned test, if you will. Basically, does the conclusion follow from the GIVEN premises? Initially, I don't even care if the premises are true...cogency is all that matters. And honestly, I often don't get past this step....analyzing kicks in and my mind goes off and does It's thing...and then I'm sunk....lol

So please don't take offense to anything I've written. As I'm not taking offense to anything. A lot has been said about my comments about intelligence and religion....I'm not going to recant my statements, as i believe what I have stated...faith(emotion) is seen as illogical. In fact, using emotive language within the confines of an argument leads to fallacious results....there is no place in logic for emotion, because it is counterproductive....

[Rhiannon]

I had thought I already explained why this thread was started....every so often I kinda crave a little more cranial stimulus than what journey song was heard at which sporting event last night, or in the background of such and such movie....

I've been thinking about all my previous posts on this topic...in this thread, and the others that have been discussed over the years. As ginger said, I'm extremely analytical. So much so that I've often heard from people, "what the fuck are you talking about?!". My mind is a constant amalgamation of thought...I know others here can understand what I'm talking about...I'm not referring to actual substance of thought...topic of thought doesn't matter. It's speed of thought, and trying to type AND speak at my own level of thought. As a child I would stutter and stammer when trying to get my thoughts across...part of it was shyness and nerves, but a great deal of it was not being able to talk as fast as my mind was working....how this relates to this topic is that whatever is written by me here is not nearly what i have worked out in my mind....

When I read a response within the pages of this topic I immediately filter it through my logic knowledge....an inductive reasoned test, if you will. Basically, does the conclusion follow from the GIVEN premises? Initially, I don't even care if the premises are true...cogency is all that matters. And honestly, I often don't get past this step....analyzing kicks in and my mind goes off and does It's thing...and then I'm sunk....lol

So please don't take offense to anything I've written. As I'm not taking offense to anything. A lot has been said about my comments about intelligence and religion....I'm not going to recant my statements, as i believe what I have stated...faith(emotion) is seen as illogical. In fact, using emotive language within the confines of an argument leads to fallacious results....there is no place in logic for emotion, because it is counterproductive....

That was well-worded, Sean. I get what you're saying. Pardon any misguided exasperation on the topic, from me. I wasn't offended. I don't have a horse in this race, personally. I can appreciate what you're saying here. I get it. As I said, I didn't read the thread and clearly should have before assuming it was SSDD. Cheers!

[SF-Dano]

I had thought I already explained why this thread was started....every so often I kinda crave a little more cranial stimulus than what journey song was heard at which sporting event last night, or in the background of such and such movie....

I've been thinking about all my previous posts on this topic...in this thread, and the others that have been discussed over the years. As ginger said, I'm extremely analytical. So much so that I've often heard from people, "what the fuck are you talking about?!". My mind is a constant amalgamation of thought...I know others here can understand what I'm talking about...I'm not referring to actual substance of thought...topic of thought doesn't matter. It's speed of thought, and trying to type AND speak at my own level of thought. As a child I would stutter and stammer when trying to get my thoughts across...part of it was shyness and nerves, but a great deal of it was not being able to talk as fast as my mind was working....how this relates to this topic is that whatever is written by me here is not nearly what i have worked out in my mind....

When I read a response within the pages of this topic I immediately filter it through my logic knowledge....an inductive reasoned test, if you will. Basically, does the conclusion follow from the GIVEN premises? Initially, I don't even care if the premises are true...cogency is all that matters. And honestly, I often don't get past this step....analyzing kicks in and my mind goes off and does It's thing...and then I'm sunk....lol

So please don't take offense to anything I've written. As I'm not taking offense to anything. A lot has been said about my comments about intelligence and religion....I'm not going to recant my statements, as i believe what I have stated...faith(emotion) is seen as illogical. In fact, using emotive language within the confines of an argument leads to fallacious results....there is no place in logic for emotion, because it is counterproductive....

Dude you are coming across as a Vulcan here.LOL

[S2M]

It's either Pon Farr, or the Kolinahr....not sure.

[Duncan]

I admit I don't know. Believers won't admit that. They KNOW.....

Nope they have faith, and hope. Hope is a wonderful thing to have.

Hope IS a powerful thing, and personally I think it's the secret for why religion can (operative word there) improve the quality of life for people. It's the reason I readily admit that I wish I could still believe. Life for me is great now, and I have no regrets, but I still occasionally miss that part of my former life. It's very much like a heartbreak - some piece of it will always be with me.

Hope springs eternal. And you may not always feel the same. But as far as a good person, I see a good person in you. I hope you will always leave a door open.

Do you believe Rip is going to hell?

That is not mine to decide.

Ok, what does your bible say happens to people who don't believe?

[Duncan]

I wonder what the age cutoff is though, because Jehovah roasted lots of kids in the O.T. Plus this begs the question regarding us being "born into sin". According to the Bible we are lost right out of the gate.

Being born into sin and being capable of being responsible for one's own sin are two different things, in my opinion. If the child in David's case was born into sin and going to hell as you seem to be indicating, explain to me how David was going to see him again unless David also thought he was going to end up in hell also.

You mention it as your opinion -- is there any firm doctrine on it?

I don't know.

No, wasn't indicating that about the child in David's case - I took that verse as it read. I was pointing out the contradiction, because God had no problems judging and wasting plenty of kids in other parts of the O.T. Surely there were some babies in Sodom & Gomorrah... and certainly in the world at the time of the great flood. Do you think maybe God just wiped out their bodies but spared the souls?

As stated previously, I don't believe God holds children accountable if they aren't yet aware of their own sin.

A perfect example of the great book of multiple choice in action.

[conversationpc]

I wonder what the age cutoff is though, because Jehovah roasted lots of kids in the O.T. Plus this begs the question regarding us being "born into sin". According to the Bible we are lost right out of the gate.

Being born into sin and being capable of being responsible for one's own sin are two different things, in my opinion. If the child in David's case was born into sin and going to hell as you seem to be indicating, explain to me how David was going to see him again unless David also thought he was going to end up in hell also.

You mention it as your opinion -- is there any firm doctrine on it?

I don't know.

No, wasn't indicating that about the child in David's case - I took that verse as it read. I was pointing out the contradiction, because God had no problems judging and wasting plenty of kids in other parts of the O.T. Surely there were some babies in Sodom & Gomorrah... and certainly in the world at the time of the great flood. Do you think maybe God just wiped out their bodies but spared the souls?

As stated previously, I don't believe God holds children accountable if they aren't yet aware of their own sin.

A perfect example of the great book of multiple choice in action.

How is it multiple choice if I simply don't know the answer? I'm not picking and choosing, just saying that I don't know the answer. Multiple choice is when someone plainly knows the truth but decides to go against it for one reason or another.

[Duncan]

I wonder what the age cutoff is though, because Jehovah roasted lots of kids in the O.T. Plus this begs the question regarding us being "born into sin". According to the Bible we are lost right out of the gate.

Being born into sin and being capable of being responsible for one's own sin are two different things, in my opinion. If the child in David's case was born into sin and going to hell as you seem to be indicating, explain to me how David was going to see him again unless David also thought he was going to end up in hell also.

You mention it as your opinion -- is there any firm doctrine on it?

I don't know.

No, wasn't indicating that about the child in David's case - I took that verse as it read. I was pointing out the contradiction, because God had no problems judging and wasting plenty of kids in other parts of the O.T. Surely there were some babies in Sodom & Gomorrah... and certainly in the world at the time of the great flood. Do you think maybe God just wiped out their bodies but spared the souls?

As stated previously, I don't believe God holds children accountable if they aren't yet aware of their own sin.

A perfect example of the great book of multiple choice in action.

How is it multiple choice if I simply don't know the answer? I'm not picking and choosing, just saying that I don't know the answer. Multiple choice is when someone plainly knows the truth but decides to go against it for one reason or another.

In the sense that it appears to be perfectly legit to choose what bits of the Bible to believe and how to interpret them.

[Rip Rokken]

I love the different takes on the topic myself, I'm just humored that it's usually atheists who bring up the discussion.

I think it all started when someone asked Scarygirl if she thought Amy Winehouse went to Hell. And just today, someone asked someone else if I was going to Hell. That's when the whole conversation went to Hell.

Where the hell have you been anyway?

[Rip Rokken]

Another thing you might want to think on Rip. Does a baby harbor sin in its heart? Can a baby lust? Can you look at a baby and think it is depraved? Does a baby think evil? Do we refer to children as innocent?

I guess we all have our takes on things and this is not to offend. But it makes no sense to say that a child (if you believe we are created) is created evil. How can God create evil? I don't buy it. I think we are corrupted by sin when we are old enough to know what is right and wrong and chose to do wrong anyway. Sin is choice, not inherited. I know many think differently, and I respect your difference of thought.

Man wasn't intended to know good from evil to begin with, but only to live by God. Kinda strange that the first sin was learning the difference between right and wrong. And thus, mankind was cursed, and the curse was passed down from that point forward. Most branches of Christianity teach that people are born into sin.

Under your logic, it sounds like it could be possible for a regular Joe to live a sinless life if he consistently chose the right thing.

[Rip Rokken]

I might know something was absurd on the surface (like Peter walking out on the water to meet Jesus)

If God exists, then he is a supernatural being, yes? Doesn't it follow that if he's a supernatural being, he can do things that aren't within or normal, natural capabilities?

I didn't word it clearly - I was talking about our glee at stepping up to the plate to do the logic-defying things God asks of us -- things that are backward from what we know and would expect -- and I used Peter's faith by walking on the water as an example. But now that you mention it, people walking on water is absolutely absurd.

Belief without questioning is blessed, and independent thought is discouraged.

Really? Perhaps you were hanging out with the wrong crowd? I've seen this stuff talked about and debated in the Christian community ad infinitum.

Inside the Christian community they may debate doctrine, but doubtful any of them are questioning God himself.

[Rip Rokken]

Being born into sin and being capable of being responsible for one's own sin are two different things, in my opinion. If the child in David's case was born into sin and going to hell as you seem to be indicating, explain to me how David was going to see him again unless David also thought he was going to end up in hell also.

You mention it as your opinion -- is there any firm doctrine on it?

I don't know.

So our doctrines can be simply opinions...

I'm not trying to avoid the question. When I say "I don't know" that means exactly what it says.

See, this is probably the one thing that really irks me about some atheists/agnostics. You can't admit that you don't know something (no one knows everything) without having the other person either belittling you for not being all-knowing, questioning your motives regardless of how pure they are, or getting in a dig in one way or another. Of course, heaven forbid that science can't always explain things, either.

I wasn't trying to dig at you at all - I thought it was interesting how you worded things and was hoping maybe to spark some self-analysis of your thinking. I dissect my own thoughts and behavior regularly to see what makes me think and do things the way I do. I believe deep introspection is the key to moving forward.

[Rip Rokken]

Rip find me one scripture that says a baby is lost, depraved, sinful. It says man is sinful. A man is not a baby.

I'm talking about man as in mankind - our species as a whole.

I did find some verses about God making people eat feces though(like Ezekiel 4:12), as well as eating their own children. For shame! From Leviticus 26:

27 ‘Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, 28 then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. 29 Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat.

Reading that entire chapter and all the horrible threats he made against them if they disobeyed, I can tell you - there is no way I would ever want to serve that evil god.

[Rip Rokken]

Rip, I don't believe in once saved always saved. I think one can fall from grace. But again I am not God so who am I to say who will and who will not be welcomed there? Only God can make such a judgment.

I think only you can say if you believe or not. I think one can believe and lose faith. Happens all the time.

Are you Church of Christ by chance?

Yes

No offense taken.

None intended - was only curious because I know they teach that you can lose your salvation.

[Rip Rokken]

Rip, I don't believe in once saved always saved. I think one can fall from grace. But again I am not God so who am I to say who will and who will not be welcomed there? Only God can make such a judgment.

I think only you can say if you believe or not. I think one can believe and lose faith. Happens all the time.

Are you Church of Christ by chance?

Yes

No offense taken.

This is an area where Ginger and I don't agree. Yet we can be friends and kind towards one another. Feel the love, man!

I know many have that stance on once saved always saved. Also some believe in the Rapture. I for one do not. I don't think some are destined for heaven no matter what they do in life, while others are destined to be lost no matter what they do or believe. I don't believe heaven will be on earth. Probably quite a few differences in thoughts.

But I can agree that I look on you as a friend Dave. And these are matters we could always discuss without bad feelings. I am not trying to convert you guys. Just discussing theology.

I have to ask, because salvation is central to the message of Christianity, and whether or not you can lose it is a huge thing. If we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit who leads us into all knowledge, why doesn't he lead us into the same knowledge on these major points of doctrine?

[Rip Rokken]

I wasn't talking to the discussion as a whole. Just the topic... returning... again... it's the message board equivalent of another Final Destination movie.

!!! !!! You're the one who wrote all Chloe's clever dialog for Smallville, aren't you?

[S2M]

I think 'god' is Kaiser Sose'....or at least Verbal Kint. I think Christianity had an initial good message on how to live life. A nice set of scare tactics, forcing people to adhere to some rules...or face eternal damnation of fire and brimstone...but then 'guilt' was discovered, and the powers that be invented confession - so man could shed his guilt and function for the church....I also question the 10 commandments. The first few concern vanity. Why should I worship a vain entity? Why would he even want to be worshipped? I mean he made the universe/world in 6 days...he shouldn't have an inferiority complex...or have that huge an urge to have his ego stroked.

[Duncan]

Rip find me one scripture that says a baby is lost, depraved, sinful. It says man is sinful. A man is not a baby.

I'm talking about man as in mankind - our species as a whole.

I did find some verses about God making people eat feces though(like Ezekiel 4:12), as well as eating their own children. For shame! From Leviticus 26:

27 ‘Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, 28 then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. 29 Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat.

Reading that entire chapter and all the horrible threats he made against them if they disobeyed, I can tell you - there is no way I would ever want to serve that evil god.

Isn't there a bit about drinking piss?

[Duncan]

Do you believe Rip is going to hell?

That is not mine to decide.

Hahaha... How could she possibly be happy in Heaven knowing I (or any friend or loved one) was roasting in Hell?

But the Biblical answer from the Calvanist point of view at least is "NO" - I can't. It's the doctrine of Eternal Security, or "once saved, always saved". And the Bible says, "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." Also several verses talking about how the good work he began, he will finish, and how nobody can snatch us out of his hand.

That's the kicker, and the only explanation most Christians have for me or the tons and tons of people just like me is that we were never really saved to begin with - otherwise, we couldn't be here. And the answer I or any of the others I've met or listened to will shoot right back at them is, "If I didn't really believe, then nobody can really believe." I never even entertained any serious doubts about my faith until just a few years ago, so how is that not belief?

So I can assure all my concerned friends that I have 0% chance of going to Hell. According to the Bible, I'll eventually have to be recovered to the faith and complete my process of sanctification, then spend eternity singing praises to the Almighty. Oh, joy.

Rip, I don't believe in once saved always saved. I think one can fall from grace. But again I am not God so who am I to say who will and who will not be welcomed there? Only God can make such a judgment.

I think only you can say if you believe or not. I think one can believe and lose faith. Happens all the time.

Can you explain to me how you can believe, but at the same time lose faith?