Religion & Morality

[Rip Rokken]

Have you ever studied how the various strands of DNA are specifically ordered and numbered? Ever see how "machines" do the work within cells in such a fashion that it almost looks like a factory that someone could have built? Then you've got protein folding, addressing, etc. It's mind-blowing stuff and, to me, strong evidence of an intelligent designer. I find it requires much more faith to believe it somehow came about by accident.

Even Hitch admits that the "Fine Tuning" concept is the toughest one to tackle in debates. I steer pretty clear from that, because I think it's distracting from my points. If the topic is the existence of God or an Intelligent Designer, it's a great point. If the topic is whether Christianity is true or not, that's really a completely different subject.

I just watched this excellent debate yesterday - Christopher Hitchens vs. 4 Christians - William Craig Lane, Lee Stroebel, Douglas Wilson, James Denison - (plus the moderator at times to make 5, lol). This was in Dallas at a Christian Book Fair hosted by Christianity Today in 2009.

Part 1 of 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0aoH5QJO0s

Talk about the deck being stacked, and I thought Hitch came out on top (Part 4 is a real highlight). I always listen as openly as possible, trying to give credit where due, and I didn't feel the Christians made one valid point in favor of the validity of Christianity, and definitely no refutations of any of Hitch's points, especially on the nature of the god of the Bible. I believe a response to one of Hitch's strongest arguments about the indifference of God during suffering was something like, "But Christianity gives hope to millions of people..." I think the Santa Claus comparison gets overused, so I'll just say that's like saying the Easter Bunny gives millions of kids hope -- it's not an argument at all, but just wishful thinking, and I'm sure millions of Muslims feel the same way about their faith.

Craig also made some silly references to logical arguments for the existence of God, something along the lines of "If it's possible for God to exist, then it follows God does exist." WTH? And especially irksome was the notion that without God, Hitchens had no foundation or anchor for his morality, as if morality that didn't originate from an outside source wasn't possible. Why must a basic sense of right and wrong stem from something else other than ourselves or each other? They also postulate that the Atheist's universe without God doesn't care what happens, therefore nobody could care about anything - it's just all cause and effect or something like that. How are these even realistic arguments? Of course people care, just like animals instinctively care for each other.

Again, I found not once single point on the Christian side that was even relevant or convincing to a rational thought process -- they seemed deflective to me. So I was amazed (but not surprised) when Craig closed his argument saying that the Christians had made 10 very valid points that Hitch couldn't counter, not even one -- then he sort of jabbed him by saying he needed to come better prepared for their upcoming debate a few days later.

Afterwards. I ran across this clip of Craig on his own website commenting on Hitchens' performance at the Book Fair and thought it was extremely cheap-shottish... he says that Hitch doesn't have the "intellectual substance to respond to these arguments". Also called him "weasely" in his arguments. Nice photo to use as a background for the entire vid, too - very manipulative. I have a sneaking suspicion Craig might possibly be a fraud.

Wish I could say that Hitch mopped the floor with Craig during their next debate, but I was pretty disappointed - I figure Hitch was either hungover or had too many scotches at lunch (I believe he did mention being in the bar during lunch), because Craig was extremely deflective and kept Hitch on the offense, and Hitchens just let him do it for some reason.

BTW, Hitchens and Douglas Wilson wrote a book together and went on a debate tour to promote it, and it was captured in the documentary "Collision" which I just finished watching today. It pretty much gives equal time to both perspectives and aside from the extremely overly-rough "jittercam" effect, it was excellent. WTF is up with the overuse of jittercam these days? It's great when, used properly, but it appeared they were trying to get the look as if it was shot by people who had absolutely no idea how to use a camcorder, focus a shot, or hold it still for longer than a few seconds.

[artist4perry]

My problem is not with someone having one thought or another on the subject. What I have a disagreement with is the lack of respect to others who hold a differing opinion. If your into tearing others down to build yourself or your thoughts up, that says little for your own personality. The internet is a fine thing, but I find people hide behind a computer and say things they would never say to people to their face. It gives them a cowards way of treating others badly.

You don't have to be nasty to give your point of view. But if you do, your true nature shows through.

[Gideon]

This is rich...The forum's resident numbskull attempting to school someone of supposed lesser intelligence. I've seen it all now.

I don't agree with his seeming allegiance to the dogmatic and demonstrably false notion that science is infallible or all encompassing (which is ironic, given his position on religion), but Parfait is definitely bright.

I actually enjoy reading his posts very much.

TROLLS

One of many unsung internet heroes who are almost entirely misunderstood. Contrary to popular belief, many trolls are actually quite intelligent. Their habitual attacks on forums is usually a result of their awareness of the pretentiousness and excessive self-importance of many forum enthusiasts. As much as people may hate trolls, they are highly effective - their actions bring much of the stupidity of other forum users out into the great wide open.
Man, that troll really owned those dumb forum users who take themselves too damn seriously.

Parfait doesn't fit the standard for a troll, IMHO.

[YoungJRNY]

This is rich...The forum's resident numbskull attempting to school someone of supposed lesser intelligence. I've seen it all now.

I don't agree with his seeming allegiance to the dogmatic and demonstrably false notion that science is infallible or all encompassing (which is ironic, given his position on religion), but Parfait is definitely bright.

I actually enjoy reading his posts very much.

I agree. A troll holds no significant insight and only posts to get a rise out of people. He doesn't fit the bill. In fact, parfait is one of my favorite posters. The dude is smart as hell and plays within the MR rules: he doesn't give a shit if he isn't politically correct. Could he come off wrong at times? Sure, but who doesn't on MR?

[Gideon]

Sure, but who doesn't on MR?

You're talking to him.

[YoungJRNY]

Sure, but who doesn't on MR?

You're talking to him.

Haha, not to pat you on the back but you're right. You rank among them too. I like a lot of peoples style here, yourself included.

[Gideon]

Sure, but who doesn't on MR?

You're talking to him.

Haha, not to pat you on the back but you're right. You rank among them too. I like a lot of peoples style here, yourself included.

I'll accept your ninja!pat on the back with the appropriate level of gratitude, man. I'm just glad there's someone else here who prefers Superman to Batman.

[Rip Rokken]

Haha, not to pat you on the back but you're right. You rank among them too. I like a lot of peoples style here, yourself included.

I'll accept your ninja!pat on the back with the appropriate level of gratitude, man. I'm just glad there's someone else here who prefers Superman to Batman.

Both of y'all need to quit worshiping make-believe saviors and get right with Christ!

[Gideon]

Haha, not to pat you on the back but you're right. You rank among them too. I like a lot of peoples style here, yourself included.

I'll accept your ninja!pat on the back with the appropriate level of gratitude, man. I'm just glad there's someone else here who prefers Superman to Batman.

Both of y'all need to quit worshiping make-believe saviors and get right with Christ!

That was very thoughtfu -- oh, I see what you did there.

[Duncan]

My problem is not with someone having one thought or another on the subject. What I have a disagreement with is the lack of respect to others who hold a differing opinion. If your into tearing others down to build yourself or your thoughts up, that says little for your own personality. The internet is a fine thing, but I find people hide behind a computer and say things they would never say to people to their face. It gives them a cowards way of treating others badly.

You don't have to be nasty to give your point of view. But if you do, your true nature shows through.

It's pretty hard to respect someone who is a member of a religion that dictates that I am going to burn in hell forever for simply not being a member of that religion. As you're a Christian you presumably subscribe to that view. You think I'm going to burn in hell and you ask me to respect you?

[majik]

Cut the bullshit. Creationism was created by the church, to give some proof of God's creation. However; there's not one, not one piece of evidence pointing in creationism's way. Ask any scientists and they'll all tell you the same thing; it's nonsense, which, though given the chance, have never been able to produce any evidence through the scientific method. A scientific theory (way different from the colloquial use of the word theory) isn't an educated guess. The universe is expanding in an increasing rate, so your propulsive energy hypothesis doesn't work. Not to mention that the big bang wasn't an bang or explosion. Time was created in the Time Zero - the singularity of the Big Bang, so there was nothing before it. So was 3-dimensional space. This is all predicted with what is probably the 20th century's greatest and most accurate theory: the theory of general relativity.

We don't know anything yet, but science continues to do major breakthroughs every day. No rational person would then say; "since science can't answer anything, then I'll just believe in something which isn't supported by shit. Pass the Bible!" The religious do however suspend reason and then tries to defend it with pseudo-scientific ignorant mumbo jumbo.

I really should start charging for these online reason and science 101-classes.

Have you ever studied how the various strands of DNA are specifically ordered and numbered? Ever see how "machines" do the work within cells in such a fashion that it almost looks like a factory that someone could have built? Then you've got protein folding, addressing, etc. It's mind-blowing stuff and, to me, strong evidence of an intelligent designer. I find it requires much more faith to believe it somehow came about by accident.

And the intelligent designer is life itself, the expression of which is DNA, cells and folding proteins and everything else that appears. The designer is not somewhere else but is here now. No faith or belief required and is beyond ideas and concepts, here it is and no-one is separate from it. Being-ness.

[artist4perry]

My problem is not with someone having one thought or another on the subject. What I have a disagreement with is the lack of respect to others who hold a differing opinion. If your into tearing others down to build yourself or your thoughts up, that says little for your own personality. The internet is a fine thing, but I find people hide behind a computer and say things they would never say to people to their face. It gives them a cowards way of treating others badly.

You don't have to be nasty to give your point of view. But if you do, your true nature shows through.

It's pretty hard to respect someone who is a member of a religion that dictates that I am going to burn in hell forever for simply not being a member of that religion. As you're a Christian you presumably subscribe to that view. You think I'm going to burn in hell and you ask me to respect you?

Duncan, I can see your goal is to make me out to be this horrible person because I believe in God. I am sorry you feel that way. You want me to say horrible things and corner me with your idealism. The truly sad thing is if you met me you might even find me to be a fun kind person. Stop letting your idealism get in the way of knowing some really great people.

[parfait]

My problem is not with someone having one thought or another on the subject. What I have a disagreement with is the lack of respect to others who hold a differing opinion. If your into tearing others down to build yourself or your thoughts up, that says little for your own personality. The internet is a fine thing, but I find people hide behind a computer and say things they would never say to people to their face. It gives them a cowards way of treating others badly.

You don't have to be nasty to give your point of view. But if you do, your true nature shows through.

It's pretty hard to respect someone who is a member of a religion that dictates that I am going to burn in hell forever for simply not being a member of that religion. As you're a Christian you presumably subscribe to that view. You think I'm going to burn in hell and you ask me to respect you?

Duncan, I can see your goal is to make me out to be this horrible person because I believe in God. I am sorry you feel that way. You want me to say horrible things and corner me with your idealism. The truly sad thing is if you met me you might even find me to be a fun kind person. Stop letting your idealism get in the way of knowing some really great people.

This isn't about you, so cut the "poor me" bullshit. No one here is saying that every Christian or Muslim is bad to the bone (disillusioned, irrational and dumber? Yes). Love thy neighbor though? Fuck that. I'm gonna pass judgment on any religion, which have brought nothing but division and irrationality to the world. Just like I pass judgment on a pedophile or parents who feed their kids nothing but crappy fast-food. Or how I wish Anders Behring Breivik (the 22. July murderer) to be raped continuously until being ripped in two.

What I'm pointing out however, is both yours and the rest of the bible jockey's complete lack of good arguments. "The cell looks like a machine derp derp" "Scientists didn't know what air was made of" "The big bang uh... Banged!" How many times have someone here explained to you what's the difference between the scientific word theory and the colloquial usage of it? Or how the scientific method works? Come on, people. Want evidence for religious people being dumber than non-believers? Get your reading glasses, a cup of coffee and read this fucking thread through.

Got to commend Rip Rokken, Duncan and Gideon for keeping up a good argument though.

[artist4perry]

My problem is not with someone having one thought or another on the subject. What I have a disagreement with is the lack of respect to others who hold a differing opinion. If your into tearing others down to build yourself or your thoughts up, that says little for your own personality. The internet is a fine thing, but I find people hide behind a computer and say things they would never say to people to their face. It gives them a cowards way of treating others badly.

You don't have to be nasty to give your point of view. But if you do, your true nature shows through.

It's pretty hard to respect someone who is a member of a religion that dictates that I am going to burn in hell forever for simply not being a member of that religion. As you're a Christian you presumably subscribe to that view. You think I'm going to burn in hell and you ask me to respect you?

Duncan, I can see your goal is to make me out to be this horrible person because I believe in God. I am sorry you feel that way. You want me to say horrible things and corner me with your idealism. The truly sad thing is if you met me you might even find me to be a fun kind person. Stop letting your idealism get in the way of knowing some really great people.

This isn't about you, so cut the "poor me" bullshit. No one here is saying that every Christian or Muslim is bad to the bone (disillusioned, irrational and dumber? Yes). Love thy neighbor though? Fuck that. I'm gonna pass judgment on any religion, which have brought nothing but division and irrationality to the world. Just like I pass judgment on a pedophile or parents who feed their kids nothing but crappy fast-food. Or how I wish Anders Behring Breivik (the 22. July murderer) to be raped continuously until being ripped in two.

What I'm pointing out however, is both yours and the rest of the bible jockey's complete lack of good arguments. "The cell looks like a machine derp derp" "Scientists didn't know what air was made of" "The big bang uh... Banged!" How many times have someone here explained to you what's the difference between the scientific word theory and the colloquial usage of it? Or how the scientific method works? Come on, people. Want evidence for religious people being dumber than non-believers? Get your reading glasses, a cup of coffee and read this fucking thread through.

Got to commend Rip Rokken, Duncan and Gideon for keeping up a good argument though.

If your happy and you know it clap your hands! If your happy and you know it clap your hands! Sing along Parfait!

http://youtu.be/qmCEQVcNp4s

[verslibre]

Notice how parfait favors sodomy as an apt form of punishment.

I can't help but wonder if he wishes he could the rapist in such matters? Like the hangman, blade executioner or shooter, he probably dreams of being paid to rape other (lawbreaking) men.

[verslibre]

Wish I could say that Hitch mopped the floor with Craig during their next debate, but I was pretty disappointed - I figure Hitch was either hungover or had too many scotches at lunch (I believe he did mention being in the bar during lunch), because Craig was extremely deflective and kept Hitch on the offense, and Hitchens just let him do it for some reason.

What would be the point of that, Ripperstein? Just accept the fact that Craig got the better of him that time, if it was so painfully obvious. To find comfort in the notion that your go-to man was drunk and that was why he didn't win the debate...come on, isn't that dumb?

[verslibre]

Want evidence for religious people being dumber than non-believers? Get your reading glasses, a cup of coffee and read this fucking thread through.

Are you going to cry if I show you a "believer" who can do something better than you?

Go baste your balls with molten cheddar, dude. Haha!

[Duncan]

My problem is not with someone having one thought or another on the subject. What I have a disagreement with is the lack of respect to others who hold a differing opinion. If your into tearing others down to build yourself or your thoughts up, that says little for your own personality. The internet is a fine thing, but I find people hide behind a computer and say things they would never say to people to their face. It gives them a cowards way of treating others badly.

You don't have to be nasty to give your point of view. But if you do, your true nature shows through.

It's pretty hard to respect someone who is a member of a religion that dictates that I am going to burn in hell forever for simply not being a member of that religion. As you're a Christian you presumably subscribe to that view. You think I'm going to burn in hell and you ask me to respect you?

Duncan, I can see your goal is to make me out to be this horrible person because I believe in God. I am sorry you feel that way. You want me to say horrible things and corner me with your idealism. The truly sad thing is if you met me you might even find me to be a fun kind person. Stop letting your idealism get in the way of knowing some really great people.

Why don't you fess up to what you believe? If you don't believe that non believers should go to hell then perhaps you should give up your religion.

[artist4perry]

Amazing Grace........a song sung by many churches of many religions, it has a stirring message, one some can understand, and some of you will never know. It was written by a man who worked as a sailor on a slave ship, during a perilous storm this man feared for his life and called out to God for help. He was not a Christian before. He later wrote this stirring hymnal that was one of my Great Aunt's favorite. We sang it when we buried her. I don't care if any of you understand. I am telling you I have as much right to believe as you to not believe. I love my Lord with all my heart.

Below is a recording of my old college Alma mater singing Amazing Grace, and I Ain't got time to Die.

I sang both songs in high school in front of many churches across quite a few states. ( I was a member of the traveling choir, much like these young men and women are) It is a stirring heartfelt thing to sing of your love of the one who created and saved me. I don't owe you any explanation, argument, or apology.

Enjoy the beautiful voices. Oh by the way. We sing Acapella. No instruments except for our voices. We always sang loud and proud! Have a nice night.

AMAZING GRACE
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me.
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.


The last verse to Ain't Got time to Die

So just get outta my way, let me praise my Jesus
Outta my way let me praise my Lord
If I don't praise him, the rocks gonna cry out,
GLORY AND HONOR, GLORY AND HONOR
Ain't got time to die!






http://youtu.be/r8tpokp_f8o

[Gideon]

No one here is saying that every Christian or Muslim is bad to the bone (disillusioned, irrational and dumber? Yes).

I'll agree w/ irrational, because there's no getting around it: religion is pretty flimsy on the evidence angle.... but I like to think we make up for it in coercion and manipulation.

(But as a Christian, I can't agree with the other two. I have too much pride in my intellect.)

Got to commend Rip Rokken, Duncan and Gideon for keeping up a good argument though.

Likewise, my French brohan.

[Duncan]

Amazing Grace........a song sung by many churches of many religions, it has a stirring message, one some can understand, and some of you will never know. It was written by a man who worked as a sailor on a slave ship, during a perilous storm this man feared for his life and called out to God for help. He was not a Christian before. He later wrote this stirring hymnal that was one of my Great Aunt's favorite. We sang it when we buried her. I don't care if any of you understand. I am telling you I have as much right to believe as you to not believe. I love my Lord with all my heart.

Below is a recording of my old college Alma mater singing Amazing Grace, and I Ain't got time to Die.

I sang both songs in high school in front of many churches across quite a few states. ( I was a member of the traveling choir, much like these young men and women are) It is a stirring heartfelt thing to sing of your love of the one who created and saved me. I don't owe you any explanation, argument, or apology.

Enjoy the beautiful voices. Oh by the way. We sing Acapella. No instruments except for our voices. We always sang loud and proud! Have a nice night.

AMAZING GRACE
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me.
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.


The last verse to Ain't Got time to Die

So just get outta my way, let me praise my Jesus
Outta my way let me praise my Lord
If I don't praise him, the rocks gonna cry out,
GLORY AND HONOR, GLORY AND HONOR
Ain't got time to die!






http://youtu.be/r8tpokp_f8o

You don't even have the conviction to state that you believe in a religion that commands non belivers to be banished to hell forever. You can't take all the fluffy nice bits, yopu know the bits where we all sit round and sing songs, bake cakes and say how sorry we are when someone cat dies and at the same time ignore the immoral teachings of the religion.

I think I know why you won't answer the question. The reason is that you don't really believe that Rip or me, or any other decent person are going to hell, do you? As soon as you admit that to yourself you can no longer call yourself a christian. The humanist society awaits you with open arms. They like cakes too.

[S2M]

So let me get this straight...a fearful sailor prays to 'god', ends up living...and then becomes a Christian?

And folks wonder why non-believers question so much that is religion. I once said outloud while at a party, 'I really wish Kathy will kiss me'...she didnt, so I guess I'm justified in my non-belief....

[artist4perry]

My problem is not with someone having one thought or another on the subject. What I have a disagreement with is the lack of respect to others who hold a differing opinion. If your into tearing others down to build yourself or your thoughts up, that says little for your own personality. The internet is a fine thing, but I find people hide behind a computer and say things they would never say to people to their face. It gives them a cowards way of treating others badly.

You don't have to be nasty to give your point of view. But if you do, your true nature shows through.

It's pretty hard to respect someone who is a member of a religion that dictates that I am going to burn in hell forever for simply not being a member of that religion. As you're a Christian you presumably subscribe to that view. You think I'm going to burn in hell and you ask me to respect you?

Duncan, I can see your goal is to make me out to be this horrible person because I believe in God. I am sorry you feel that way. You want me to say horrible things and corner me with your idealism. The truly sad thing is if you met me you might even find me to be a fun kind person. Stop letting your idealism get in the way of knowing some really great people.

Why don't you fess up to what you believe? If you don't believe that non believers should go to hell then perhaps you should give up your religion.

Sigh. Duncan I won't answer your question because I am not God, nor will I pretend to know who he will or will not condemn. Only he can say. I will be judged with the judgment I place upon others, so I do not deem myself worthy of placing myself in God's seat.

If you want to know if you are in danger of Hell's fire then I suggest reading the bible and deciding such a thing for yourself. You say these things challenging me and telling me to give up my faith.

I am going to tell you politely, no.

You have a very apparent agenda fueled by the nasty attitude of your hero Parfait. If Parfait is an example of an atheist heart, then I would rather die 100 times over a fool who believed in God, and died a good person. It seems it is you who worries too much about Hell. I have no fear my friend. Have a wonderful evening.

[Gideon]

I once said outloud while at a party, 'I really wish Kathy will kiss me'...she didnt, so I guess I'm justified in my non-belief....

Maybe she really liked Eclipse?

[artist4perry]

So let me get this straight...a fearful sailor prays to 'god', ends up living...and then becomes a Christian?

And folks wonder why non-believers question so much that is religion. I once said outloud while at a party, 'I really wish Kathy will kiss me'...she didnt, so I guess I'm justified in my non-belief....

As I said, some of you will understand, some will not.

[Duncan]

My problem is not with someone having one thought or another on the subject. What I have a disagreement with is the lack of respect to others who hold a differing opinion. If your into tearing others down to build yourself or your thoughts up, that says little for your own personality. The internet is a fine thing, but I find people hide behind a computer and say things they would never say to people to their face. It gives them a cowards way of treating others badly.

You don't have to be nasty to give your point of view. But if you do, your true nature shows through.

It's pretty hard to respect someone who is a member of a religion that dictates that I am going to burn in hell forever for simply not being a member of that religion. As you're a Christian you presumably subscribe to that view. You think I'm going to burn in hell and you ask me to respect you?

Duncan, I can see your goal is to make me out to be this horrible person because I believe in God. I am sorry you feel that way. You want me to say horrible things and corner me with your idealism. The truly sad thing is if you met me you might even find me to be a fun kind person. Stop letting your idealism get in the way of knowing some really great people.

Why don't you fess up to what you believe? If you don't believe that non believers should go to hell then perhaps you should give up your religion.

Sigh. Duncan I won't answer your question because I am not God, nor will I pretend to know who he will or will not condemn. Only he can say. I will be judged with the judgment I place upon others, so I do not deem myself worthy of placing myself in God's seat.

If you want to know if you are in danger of Hell's fire then I suggest reading the bible and deciding such a thing for yourself. You say these things challenging me and telling me to give up my faith.

I am going to tell you politely, no.

You have a very apparent agenda fueled by the nasty attitude of your hero Parfait. If Parfait is an example of an atheist heart, then I would rather die 100 times over a fool who believed in God, and died a good person. It seems it is you who worries too much about Hell. I have no fear my friend. Have a wonderful evening.

Let me address your last point first. I think you will find that I raised the essence of the question in the Amy Winehouse thread and continued to contribute to this thread for 12 pages before Parfait contributed. Your assertion that I am unable to form my own view is , however, duly noted.

Now, putting to one side the attempted character assasination, let me return to the central point. A question that is central to your Christian belif, but one that you do not have the balls to state. You refer me to your bible. I know what your bible says, it says I'm going to hell, right? Why is that so hard for you to say? Your bible says non belivers go to hell. You believe, you sign up to that.

Here's the kicker, athiests are good people too.Take young Parfait for example. Here's a guy who is devoting his life to medicine, to helping people who are sick, to try and help humanity for humanity's sake. That does not take religion, but it is you that choose to mock him. Shame on you.

[Duncan]

Oh, and I forgot to say ,it is also your religion that condemns him to hell. Wouldn't it be ironic if he discovered a cure for cancer?

[Duncan]

It also needs stating that there is a covert rascist element to the comments made towards Parfait, which comes from the believers.

[Duncan]

Sorry folks, not that I think anyone is reading this, but I've just remembered something I heard tonight. I'm on hols in Cali and in a restaurant I heard someone at the next table say these words, "what you gotta understand is: the only answer is Jesus". I didn't hear the question, but seriously I can't think of a question where the answer would be Jesus, apart from who's mother told a lie about the immaculate conception?

[Don]

If people find solice using the crutch of religion, you're never going to get them to abandon that safety chute.
So much great stuff to discover in this universe but some people don't want anything more complicated in their life than a few thousand pages of a "how to" guide that is supposed to have all the answers of in it. A vey small word that would be and very boring also if all existence could be explained away in a one volume book.
If there is a creator, I would think he would laugh at our childish arrogance at believing we have all of the answers to the universe jammed into a paperback, yet we still can't stop a lowly cancer cell from becoming metastatic.