Religion & Morality

[verslibre]

So are you assholes done preaching to yourselves, yet?

[S2M]

The thing that confuses me more than anything is the emotion attached to

Who cares?! Seriously. Do you want to go back to the days of the Tudors, where the people were forced to be whatever religion the monarch was? J**** F****** C*****!

You must have been talking about yourself, boy.

That's not emotion, it's incredulity.

[artist4perry]

Do not derail my thread...all you morality ninjas.

Don't think of it as "derailed" but merely evolving.

I did have a slight moral dilemna recently when my wife approached me about sending our daughter (just turned 5) to a Catholic school. I grew up Catholic, but do not care to practice organized religion. There public schools in my area are pretty good, and I was looking forward to not having the outrageous daycare bill to pay anymore.

My wife wasn't against sending her to the public school, but requested a chance to visit it before deciding and the principal acted like she couldn't be bothered while the Catholic school invited them both to come in during a school day and were highly accomodating.

I gave in and gave the ok to the Catholic school. It's actually still going to be cheaper than the daycare was, and my daughter really loved it during the visit. I see no harm in her being exposed to religion in her education, and it's for her to decide when she gets older if it's something she wants to follow or not.

Unfortately many of the kids become so brainswashed that they are unable to make an objective decision when they are older. That's why religous groups have schools in the first place. It should be illegal. Like government and religion, education and religion should be separate.

By the way Duncan, did you know separation of church and state does not exist on the law books?

Who cares?! Seriously. Do you want to go back to the days of the Tudors, where the people were forced to be whatever religion the monarch was? Jesus Fucking Christ!

Separation of church and state is common sense....something I think is actually lacking among the devout.

Sugar, I was not saying it should or should not be law. I was wondering if he knew it is NOT law. Because some people are not aware of this because it is touted many times like it is law.

I don't want a government run religion anymore than you do.

I think it is wonderful we all have the right to either believe or not to believe.
But we do have the right to freely express our religion. It is part of the first amendment.

I am not wanting religion crammed down anyone's throat any more than I want atheism crammed down mine. We should all have a right to our own choice in the matter.
Now aren't you guys getting a bit pissy under the collar? It was a simple question with no other agenda than to ask if he knew that or not.

[parfait]

Do not derail my thread...all you morality ninjas.

Don't think of it as "derailed" but merely evolving.

I did have a slight moral dilemna recently when my wife approached me about sending our daughter (just turned 5) to a Catholic school. I grew up Catholic, but do not care to practice organized religion. There public schools in my area are pretty good, and I was looking forward to not having the outrageous daycare bill to pay anymore.

My wife wasn't against sending her to the public school, but requested a chance to visit it before deciding and the principal acted like she couldn't be bothered while the Catholic school invited them both to come in during a school day and were highly accomodating.

I gave in and gave the ok to the Catholic school. It's actually still going to be cheaper than the daycare was, and my daughter really loved it during the visit. I see no harm in her being exposed to religion in her education, and it's for her to decide when she gets older if it's something she wants to follow or not.

Unfortately many of the kids become so brainswashed that they are unable to make an objective decision when they are older. That's why religous groups have schools in the first place. It should be illegal. Like government and religion, education and religion should be separate.

By the way Duncan, did you know separation of church and state does not exist on the law books?

Who cares?! Seriously. Do you want to go back to the days of the Tudors, where the people were forced to be whatever religion the monarch was? Jesus Fucking Christ!

Separation of church and state is common sense....something I think is actually lacking among the devout.

Sugar, I was not saying it should or should not be law. I was wondering if he knew it is NOT law. Because some people are not aware of this because it is touted many times like it is law.

I don't want a government run religion anymore than you do.

I think it is wonderful we all have the right to either believe or not to believe.
But we do have the right to freely express our religion. It is part of the first amendment.

I am not wanting religion crammed down anyone's throat any more than I want atheism crammed down mine. We should all have a right to our own choice in the matter.
Now aren't you guys getting a bit pissy under the collar? It was a simple question with no other agenda than to ask if he knew that or not.

Go back and read my last post, "muffin'"

[artist4perry]

Do not derail my thread...all you morality ninjas.

Don't think of it as "derailed" but merely evolving.

I did have a slight moral dilemna recently when my wife approached me about sending our daughter (just turned 5) to a Catholic school. I grew up Catholic, but do not care to practice organized religion. There public schools in my area are pretty good, and I was looking forward to not having the outrageous daycare bill to pay anymore.

My wife wasn't against sending her to the public school, but requested a chance to visit it before deciding and the principal acted like she couldn't be bothered while the Catholic school invited them both to come in during a school day and were highly accomodating.

I gave in and gave the ok to the Catholic school. It's actually still going to be cheaper than the daycare was, and my daughter really loved it during the visit. I see no harm in her being exposed to religion in her education, and it's for her to decide when she gets older if it's something she wants to follow or not.

Unfortately many of the kids become so brainswashed that they are unable to make an objective decision when they are older. That's why religous groups have schools in the first place. It should be illegal. Like government and religion, education and religion should be separate.

By the way Duncan, did you know separation of church and state does not exist on the law books?

Who cares?! Seriously. Do you want to go back to the days of the Tudors, where the people were forced to be whatever religion the monarch was? Jesus Fucking Christ!

Separation of church and state is common sense....something I think is actually lacking among the devout.

Sugar, I was not saying it should or should not be law. I was wondering if he knew it is NOT law. Because some people are not aware of this because it is touted many times like it is law.

I don't want a government run religion anymore than you do.

I think it is wonderful we all have the right to either believe or not to believe.
But we do have the right to freely express our religion. It is part of the first amendment.

I am not wanting religion crammed down anyone's throat any more than I want atheism crammed down mine. We should all have a right to our own choice in the matter.
Now aren't you guys getting a bit pissy under the collar? It was a simple question with no other agenda than to ask if he knew that or not.

Go back and read my last post, "muffin'"

I did, but it is still not law. It was a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist Convention. People tout it as though it were law. The first Amendment gives us the right to freedom of EXPRESSION of religion. Now regardless if the Founding Fathers were religious or not, they did not make a law concerning separation of church and state. It does however state that we cannot mandate a Country or State mandated religion, like the Church of England. That was the main reason for the amendment. Poopy head!

[S2M]

Ginger, go back to previous page and read MY quotes by Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine......it'll all become crystal clear...

[artist4perry]

Ginger, go back to previous page and read MY quotes by Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine......it'll all become crystal clear...

It is crystal clear that these men did separate writings that have nothing to do with the actual law. What is actually written is law. As I said, the way it is stated, no one can mandate a Religion on or over anyone. But the freedom of expression of religion is protected by law. I would not want anyone forced to believe in God, nor would I want laws to force a doctrine of a religion on anyone. But as far as a Christmas tree on public property, that is ridiculous. I would be fine with a Buddha and Jewish symbols, Kwanzaa stuff, it is all fine to me. Number one, I don't celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday. It has become a secular holiday for most folks. But it amazes me how many people go nuts these days over a ruddy tree. That was not what the Constitution was meant for. Some try to use it to remove people's rights to express religion, even though it is clearly protected by the law. That is what I am saying, not that I want the Government to force people to be Purple Pony worshipers.

[conversationpc]

Go back and read my last post, "muffin'"

OK...

What are you talking about? The United States Constitution serves as the law of the land for America and indicates the intent of your Founding Fathers. The Constitution forms a secular document, and nowhere does it appeal to God, Christianity, Jesus, or any supreme being. Madison (a Christian) had also written that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." Most of the founding Fathers, although they respected the rights of other religionists, held to deism and Freemasonry tenets rather than to Christianity. They were secularists above all else. John Adams further wrote in the Treaty of Tripoli:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The US was founded on the beautiful ideas of the enlightenment, based upon the works of Spinoza, Locke, Montesquieu and Voltaire.

John Adams also said...

The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. – letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28th, 1813

We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! – April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in “the name of George the Sovereign King of England.

[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. – letter written to Abigail Adams on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. – October 11th, 1798

Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell. – letter to Thomas Jefferson, April 19th, 1817

Some of the other founding fathers also had the following to say (and there are tons of other similar statements I haven't even begun to touch here...)

What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ. - in a speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs, May 12th, 1779

It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.

It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty god, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors.

Religion and morality are the essential pillars of civil society.

Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.

God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever. – Notes on the state of Virginia, 1781

It [the Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. – letter to Charles Thompson, January 9th, 1816

From the day of the Declaration [of Independence]…they [the American people] were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct. – July 4th, 1821

Taken from my blog post @ God and Government.

[Gideon]

I just finished watching Has Science Buried God? w/ Dawkins and Lennox and it was great.

[artist4perry]

I want to say to S2M and Parfait, you have had differing opinions on this page of the thread, but have been quite civil. I have jokingly called you Sugar, (Parfait that is a southern woman thing, we call people Sugar, it is not an insult) And joked with Parfait..........for example Poopy head, but all done in fun. The discussion was very interesting today. I have had a hard day and it was a nice change. Thank you gentlemen.

[Duncan]

Besides Mass, I didn't really feel or see where there was any push trying to force Catholicism down anyone's throat.
.

I think the compulsory adoration of God for Children as young as 5 is morally reprehensible.

[majik]

Besides Mass, I didn't really feel or see where there was any push trying to force Catholicism down anyone's throat.
.

I think the compulsory adoration of God for Children as young as 5 is morally reprehensible.

Reminds me of the day my son asked to know the truth about Santa Claus as his friends had told him at school that he didn't exist. When I confirmed that as being true the first thing he asked was does that mean there is no God either.

Santa made toys and God made the world and if you are very good and believe the reward was toys and God the adult version of Santa the reward is heaven. Out of the mouth of babes as they say.

[Duncan]

Besides Mass, I didn't really feel or see where there was any push trying to force Catholicism down anyone's throat.
.

I think the compulsory adoration of God for Children as young as 5 is morally reprehensible.

Reminds me of the day my son asked to know the truth about Santa Claus as his friends had told him at school that he didn't exist. When I confirmed that as being true the first thing he asked was does that mean there is no God either.

Santa made toys and God made the world and if you are very good and believe the reward was toys and God the adult version of Santa the reward is heaven. Out of the mouth of babes as they say.

Funny you should say that. My wife teaches 6 year olds and last year she had an autistic boy in her class. As part of the national curriculum they have to do the standard R.E classes, but this young lad was having none of it. As soon as the lesson would start he would start shouting no, no no and waving his hands. When he was asked what the problem was he said I don't belive in god, I can't see him and he doesn't do anything. He basically was not prepared to listen to the lesson and his 1 to 1 support had to take him out.

Now, i'm not professing to know the first thing about autism, but I did wonder if the lad's brain was wired in such away that it was not possible for him to digest information that was not demonstrably true. I must ask if he ever had the same response to Santa.

[Uno_up]

I just want y'all to know, I do draw the line at tranny midget hot-lunch porn. That's too far.

[AR]

I just want y'all to know, I do draw the line at tranny midget hot-lunch porn. That's too far.

German scat incest films are about as far as I'll venture down that road.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

Besides Mass, I didn't really feel or see where there was any push trying to force Catholicism down anyone's throat.
.

I think the compulsory adoration of God for Children as young as 5 is morally reprehensible.

Reminds me of the day my son asked to know the truth about Santa Claus as his friends had told him at school that he didn't exist. When I confirmed that as being true .....

what the.........??? Theres's no Santa? Dont you dare piss on my campfire! I see him on the top floor of the Macys on 34th Street every year. And one one year he was at Bloomindales.

[artist4perry]

Besides Mass, I didn't really feel or see where there was any push trying to force Catholicism down anyone's throat.
.

I think the compulsory adoration of God for Children as young as 5 is morally reprehensible.

Then it seems you cannot tolerate anyone to believe in God or to have the choice to raise their children up as Christians. They are not your children, it is not your decision.
By the way, my own children went to public school.

I went to a christian Academy and a Christian University for two years, I had the time of my life at both, and enjoyed school very much. I started going there in the 9th grade.

I will tell you that I learned a great deal in bible, mostly reading the scriptures and memory work on what it says.

It is not mandatory to attend these schools, you have to WANT to go, I am proud I attended there. I made lifelong friendships, and I had kind wonderful teachers who didn't mind helping you if you didn't understand something, because the ratio of student to teacher was smaller.

They are much safer than public schools. If a kid is a thug and will not behave they don't have to put up with it, he can go to a public school, so kids put up with less bullying, and a stronger learning atmosphere is encouraged. They have to teach everything a public school does, even evolution.

[artist4perry]

Besides Mass, I didn't really feel or see where there was any push trying to force Catholicism down anyone's throat.
.

I think the compulsory adoration of God for Children as young as 5 is morally reprehensible.

Reminds me of the day my son asked to know the truth about Santa Claus as his friends had told him at school that he didn't exist. When I confirmed that as being true .....

what the.........??? Theres's no Santa? Dont you dare piss on my campfire! I see him on the top floor of the Macys on 34th Street every year. And one one year he was at Bloomindales.

Yes, Virgina, there is a Santa Clause.

[artist4perry]

I just want y'all to know, I do draw the line at tranny midget hot-lunch porn. That's too far.

What no gravy?

[Rip Rokken]

After reading in this forum about how good their latest effort was, I laid down the $10+ at WalMart for it. Incredible stuff! "Time of Our Lives" would have easily be a top-10 hit in the mid-80's. "Bye Bye Baby" and "Say it with Love" probably as well, with really good hooks. Thank you.

Didn't realize it was at Wal-Mart! Going to grab a copy tonight. Thanks!

[Rip Rokken]

On other issues, I'm going to see Richard Dawkins speak later this year -- probably from the front row. Possibility Hitch will be there too, depending on his health.

BTW, I just re-watched the William Lane Craig/Christopher Hitchens debate again last night, and I do think Hitch came out on top. Took a second watch. He kinda stammered a bit (probably from the Scotch), but still did very well. I think I just wasn't used to seeing him not 100% and thought he missed some opportunities. But I also realized the first video I watched was cut short in the Q&A session at the end, and I'd missed a good exchange between the two plus some answers to audience questions there.

[conversationpc]

Besides Mass, I didn't really feel or see where there was any push trying to force Catholicism down anyone's throat.
.

I think the compulsory adoration of God for Children as young as 5 is morally reprehensible.

Honestly, going by the typical atheist ideology, it really doesn't matter if you think it's morally reprehensible or not. If everyone's responsible for making up their own morality and living by it, there's no way you can say that your standard is right.

[conversationpc]

Who is More Religious?
New Study Reveals the Highly Educated Are More Religious

Conventional wisdom has it that there is a growing relationship between a person's level of education and their religion. Most people assume that the more a person is educated, their level of religion goes down because they start forming ideas of their own.

However, a new study indicates that the opposite may be true.

Sociologist Philip Schwadel from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln (UNL) studied this phenomenon. He discovered that people today tend to become more religious as they further their education.

Schwadel, the author of the new study, will publish his findings in the journal Review of Religious Research...

http://www.christianpost.com/news/who-i ... ous-53865/

[Rick]

Besides Mass, I didn't really feel or see where there was any push trying to force Catholicism down anyone's throat.
.

I think the compulsory adoration of God for Children as young as 5 is morally reprehensible.

Honestly, going by the typical atheist ideology, it really doesn't matter if you think it's morally reprehensible or not. If everyone's responsible for making up their own morality and living by it, there's no way you can say that your standard is right.

That, and it's what they know. It's how they were raised, and they're going to tend to raise their kids that way. Just like potty training, manners and responsibility is taught, so is that.

[Duncan]

I'm not sure what "athiest ideolgy" means. Athiesm is simply not believing in god and no more than that. Nevertheless, I do not believe morality comes from the bible and I think a pretty good case can be made for the opposite. Of course, how people bring up their children is up to them, but I think it is wrong to drum stories into them that have no basis in evidence, so that in adult life they have a completely skewed view of the world, science and reality. That is not good for any of us. If you come to religion once you are able to make an informed decision then fair enough.

However, what you tell your children in your home is, in my view, different to to what they should be taught in school and especially state funded schools. Children in school should not be made to worship god. They should learn about religion, but not taught to be religous.

[Duncan]

On other issues, I'm going to see Richard Dawkins speak later this year -- probably from the front row. Possibility Hitch will be there too, depending on his health.

BTW, I just re-watched the William Lane Craig/Christopher Hitchens debate again last night, and I do think Hitch came out on top. Took a second watch. He kinda stammered a bit (probably from the Scotch), but still did very well. I think I just wasn't used to seeing him not 100% and thought he missed some opportunities. But I also realized the first video I watched was cut short in the Q&A session at the end, and I'd missed a good exchange between the two plus some answers to audience questions there.

I look forward to the photograph of you and The Hitch. You have to get him to do the devil horns with you. That would be priceless.

[Duncan]

Then it seems you cannot tolerate anyone to believe in God or to have the choice to raise their children up as Christians.

Not sure how you draw that conclusion. It is your right to believe in god. It is a free country. You are also free to bring your kids up as you see fit, within the remit of the law. It is also within your right to make them grow up believing that the holocaust didn't happen, but you wouldn't expect Nazism to be taught in schools or for the school to assemble in front of a swastika every morning in order to pledge their allegence to the fuhrer. [/quote]

They are not your children, it is not your decision.

I know.

By the way, my own children went to public school.

Interesting. Why?

I went to a christian Academy and a Christian University for two years, I had the time of my life at both, and enjoyed school very much. I started going there in the 9th grade.

I don't know what 9th grade is, but I don't think many 5 year olds get to choose where they go to school.

I will tell you that I learned a great deal in bible, mostly reading the scriptures and memory work on what it says.

I noticed and unfortunately that has lead to you abandoning reality and critical thinking.

It is not mandatory to attend these schools, you have to WANT to go, I am proud I attended there. I made lifelong friendships, and I had kind wonderful teachers who didn't mind helping you if you didn't understand something, because the ratio of student to teacher was smaller.

I suspect you only wanted to go there because you had already been brainwashed. Based on your understanding of scientific reasoning, scientific theory and evolution, which I have read across a number of threads, your education appears to have been extremely poor. However,this does to serve to illustrate my point.

It is a huge threat to America if all it can turn out of it's schools and colleges are people whose take on the world is totally remote from how the world really works. The understanding of evolution is but one example. Evolutionary theory is central to matters that affect our lives daily such as molecular biology, agriculture, biotechnology, conservation and even software development. These are issues that are vital for the survival of the human race. Examples of what this means in the real world are the scientists who develop new pesicides in response to pesticide resistant predators, scientists who develop antibiotics in response to resistant bacteria and scientists who develop plants (fruit & veg) that will grow in inhospitable climates.

[Duncan]

"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

I agree completely.

Horrible generalization, and I'm particularly shocked that you would agree with this.

No kidding. Personally, I think sweeping generalizations are incontrovertible proof of stupidity, though it's clearly not as obvious to some of the people who post in this thread.

Yeah, my thinking is, if you want people to understand and respect your lifestyle, you should, at the very least, be accepting of others in the same way. Makes me just shake my head.

Rick,

Seriously mate, who are the ones making the judgements? Homosexuality is an expression of love and deserves the same respect and rights as any other. It is normally only the religous and Dan who think differently.

[Rip Rokken]

On other issues, I'm going to see Richard Dawkins speak later this year -- probably from the front row. Possibility Hitch will be there too, depending on his health.

BTW, I just re-watched the William Lane Craig/Christopher Hitchens debate again last night, and I do think Hitch came out on top. Took a second watch. He kinda stammered a bit (probably from the Scotch), but still did very well. I think I just wasn't used to seeing him not 100% and thought he missed some opportunities. But I also realized the first video I watched was cut short in the Q&A session at the end, and I'd missed a good exchange between the two plus some answers to audience questions there.

I look forward to the photograph of you and The Hitch. You have to get him to do the devil horns with you. That would be priceless.

I'm hoping they can work out him being there. Talked to the organizer yesterday and they'd received no word on his health yet. Maybe Richard Dawkkens will do the horns in a pic?

[Duncan]

On other issues, I'm going to see Richard Dawkins speak later this year -- probably from the front row. Possibility Hitch will be there too, depending on his health.

BTW, I just re-watched the William Lane Craig/Christopher Hitchens debate again last night, and I do think Hitch came out on top. Took a second watch. He kinda stammered a bit (probably from the Scotch), but still did very well. I think I just wasn't used to seeing him not 100% and thought he missed some opportunities. But I also realized the first video I watched was cut short in the Q&A session at the end, and I'd missed a good exchange between the two plus some answers to audience questions there.

I look forward to the photograph of you and The Hitch. You have to get him to do the devil horns with you. That would be priceless.

I'm hoping they can work out him being there. Talked to the organizer yesterday and they'd received no word on his health yet. Maybe Richard Dawkkens will do the horns in a pic?

Man, that pic would go viral. You gotta try.