Religion & Morality

[Don]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

Not that kind, the one that would give him directions to the next pastor's house that gets accused of improprieties.

Just kidding with ya, I sometimes use a tomtom its a piece of crap so no he probably doesn't use one. Are you saying god is more evidence of infinty ?

A creator could be out there stuck on a giant track that brings him around and around. Traveling great distances but never seeing it more than perpetual motion might be considered experiencing infinty on a controlled scale, I guess.

Thats fantasy is it.

No, that's Bacardi and mango juice.

[majik]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

Not that kind, the one that would give him directions to the next pastor's house that gets accused of improprieties.

I think by now God is old, perhaps senile and use of such technology would be a bitch.

" I think by now " well thats interesting, so when did NOW begin and when will it end its always NOW, so yes it could be evidence for infinity, its infinitely now. Is there anything else that points to the fact of infinity.

It's pretty deep, no doubt. One thing that I can never get my head around is that such sophistication in design of all things could just be natural and all the chips just fell into place all by themselves. That leads me to believe in a superior being. That said, when I see people going through pain in life and natural and other disasters, I question the motives of said superior being. If there is a God, having such absolute power would potentially corrupt. If he does exist does he love us and with so much power at his/her/it's disposal, why would this entity allow so much suffering in the world? Nobody, but nobody has 100% concrete evidence of what really goes on and why. Life is a huge mystery. I've watched some really great people never get a break in life, yet also seen ones who seem to be nothing but evil get all the breaks.

"It's pretty deep, no doubt. One thing that I can never get my head around is that such sophistication in design of all things could just be natural and all the chips just fell into place all by themselves. That leads me to believe in a superior being."

"That leads me to believe in a superior being"
To believe in this superior being would require you to be separate from such a being and that being to be separate from you, if it exists at all. But Now is self evident and are you ever at any point separate from it, how and when could that happen, in the future ? well now does not change and become future when future arrives wouldn't it appear Now. You appear now appears, now appears you appear, are they in fact one and the same appearance? Yes disasters appear to happen yet is now or you the awareness of now actually touched by any of it.

Not for now. Sure, I have been touched by a variety of things in the past. At this time I am not dying or experiencing any personal earthquakes, floods or tornadoes...no, but I did have a near disaster in trying to get to a toilet quickly enough, in the mall the other day.

I think you nailed here. " a near disaster"

[majik]

Do you think god uses a Tom Tom?

Yes, sure if he plays drums.

Not that kind, the one that would give him directions to the next pastor's house that gets accused of improprieties.

Just kidding with ya, I sometimes use a tomtom its a piece of crap so no he probably doesn't use one. Are you saying god is more evidence of infinty ?

A creator could be out there stuck on a giant track that brings him around and around. Traveling great distances but never seeing it more than perpetual motion might be considered experiencing infinty on a controlled scale, I guess.

Thats fantasy is it.

No, that's Bacardi and mango juice.

Mystery solved then, there's no creator stuck on a rock.
Edit: More evidence of infinite imagination though.

[Rip Rokken]

I have no clue if an intelligent creator exists or not, but I'm pretty firmly convinced that there's no real evidence of a personal God who wants to know us, wants us to him him, or intervenes in our lives. I'm just not willing to accept any more explanations for God that require the separation of me from my common sense anymore.

I think this was made clear about 12 pages ago. What you are trying to say now I'm not really sure.

Probably the same thing I said 12 pages ago.



But should I check? Very important that we deal with facts here -- not myths.

" I'm just not willing to accept any more explanations for God that require the separation of me from my common sense anymore"
Common sense is the inherent functioning of the intelligence that you are, an intelligence that is beyond learning and prior to that which is learned. Of course you are never separate from it nor it from you. Isn't that the same underlying intelligence that is evidently functioning what we call universe, when were you ever separate from it, never.

Were you drinking when you wrote this? LOL... There is a learning element to common sense, or at least, it develops over time. And yes, Christian explanations for many things (called "apologetics") do try to get us to suspend common sense. Daniel Dennett says it well, when describing how many pastors 'explain' difficult issues to inquiring sheep.

Canons of Good Spin

1) It cannot be an outright lie.

2) You have to be able to say it with a straight face.

3) It has to relieve skepticism without arousing curiosity.

4) It should seem profound.

Full video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9w8JougLQ

[Rip Rokken]

Since the intelligence of religious folk has been in question here, I wanted to post this from Christopher Hitchens on the matter - comment starts at 4:18. I totally agree:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yskXUW15Y5A

[conversationpc]

Since the intelligence of religious folk has been in question here, I wanted to post this from Christopher Hitchens on the matter - comment starts at 4:18. I totally agree:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yskXUW15Y5A

But Sean says different...

[Rip Rokken]

Since the intelligence of religious folk has been in question here, I wanted to post this from Christopher Hitchens on the matter - comment starts at 4:18. I totally agree:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yskXUW15Y5A

But Sean says different...

He might need a Hitchslap!

[majik]

I have no clue if an intelligent creator exists or not, but I'm pretty firmly convinced that there's no real evidence of a personal God who wants to know us, wants us to him him, or intervenes in our lives. I'm just not willing to accept any more explanations for God that require the separation of me from my common sense anymore.

I think this was made clear about 12 pages ago. What you are trying to say now I'm not really sure.

Probably the same thing I said 12 pages ago.



But should I check? Very important that we deal with facts here -- not myths.

" I'm just not willing to accept any more explanations for God that require the separation of me from my common sense anymore"
Common sense is the inherent functioning of the intelligence that you are, an intelligence that is beyond learning and prior to that which is learned. Of course you are never separate from it nor it from you. Isn't that the same underlying intelligence that is evidently functioning what we call universe, when were you ever separate from it, never.

Were you drinking when you wrote this? LOL... There is a learning element to common sense, or at least, it develops over time. And yes, Christian explanations for many things (called "apologetics") do try to get us to suspend common sense. Daniel Dennett says it well, when describing how many pastors 'explain' difficult issues to inquiring sheep.

Canons of Good Spin

1) It cannot be an outright lie.

2) You have to be able to say it with a straight face.

3) It has to relieve skepticism without arousing curiosity.

4) It should seem profound.

Full video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9w8JougLQ

"Were you drinking when you wrote this? LOL... There is a learning element to common sense, or at least, it develops over time. And yes, Christian explanations for many things (called "apologetics") do try to get us to suspend common sense. Daniel Dennett says it well, when describing how many pastors 'explain' difficult issues to inquiring sheep."


Have you had one original thought yet that you would like to share, because so far you are only parroting whatever you have read or heard such as now with whatever Daniel Dennett (never heard of him ) had to say as if that gives your words some authority. Go to your own experience and see for yourself or be just like the inquiring sheep. Who asked you to suspend common sense when inquiring into the nature of reality. Yes it is a functioning of the inherent intelligence that is useful as it discovers what it truly is, which is not what you have previously been told it is. What is learning common sense, there would have to be an intelligence there to begin with, what is that pure intelligence that is evidently there, or are you denying it exists and is functioning the universe. If so how does learning take place, do tell. Be curious and genuinely inquire for yourself, inquire into your self aware nature instead of parroting.

'Were you drinking when you wrote this" .... no, maybe you might question your motives for asking. Yes, everything that is written can be pulled apart as words only ever point, point to reality, just as a road map can show the way but its not going to get you to your destination unless ya make the trip.

[Rip Rokken]

Have you had one original thought yet that you would like to share, because so far you are only parroting whatever you have read or heard such as now with whatever Daniel Dennett (never heard of him ) had to say as if that gives your words some authority. Go to your own experience and see for yourself or be just like the inquiring sheep.

Actually, at least 80% of what I've said on the topic comes from my own personal experience -- they were original in that sense, at least. I don't just parrot anybody - learned that long ago when it came to political discussions. I'm one of the most individualistic guys you'll meet. When I started researching the topic of losing faith, I found that I wasn't anywhere close to the only one who had wrestled with the exact same questions, or came to the same conclusions. It was quite a relief, and comforting to know that many who shared and taught on these things were not just Internet crackpots, but very well-respected, educated leaders in their fields of study. But I'm not talking about anything that requires that level of education - only common sense. I talk a lot from my own experience, and I quote people who say the same things better than I can.

Dennett's comments on spin are a perfect example. I've innately understood those things for a long time, and have argued against the disingenuous nature of "spin" for a long time. Was first fascinated (and disgusted) by the use of it during the Clinton/Bush presidential campaign. Dennett does a very fine way of putting it to words, so I shared them.

Watch the video for yourself to find out who he is -- he's a very respected and leading neuroscientist - specializes in studying the makeup of the human mind. Even better, he's very plain-spoken and explains things in a way people can understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9w8JougLQ

Who asked you to suspend common sense when inquiring into the nature of reality. Yes it is a functioning of the inherent intelligence that is useful as it discovers what it truly is, which is not what you have previously been told it is. What is learning common sense, there would have to be an intelligence there to begin with, what is that pure intelligence that is evidently there, or are you denying it exists and is functioning the universe. If so how does learning take place, do tell. Be curious and genuinely inquire for yourself, inquire into your self aware nature instead of parroting.

I really don't get your point. Anyone who asks you not to think, is asking you to suspend common sense. Whether it's politics or religion, or any other area where someone in a higher position of authority stands to benefit from your ignorance, the principle holds the same.

And of course common sense develops over time. Common sense dictates that if you touch a hot stove, you get burned. But that concept doesn't even begin to come real to you until you've tried it.

'Were you drinking when you wrote this" .... no, maybe you might question your motives for asking. Yes, everything that is written can be pulled apart as words only ever point, point to reality, just as a road map can show the way but its not going to get you to your destination unless ya make the trip.

Umm... I had no motives. Your statement was a little hard to parse to me, and I didn't get the point about common sense. I can't even tell where you are coming from. I don't tie human common sense together in any way with the natural order of the universe (even if it makes 'sense' to some). Stick with the points as they are intended -- no need to complicate or make them abstract for the sake of argument.

[majik]

Have you had one original thought yet that you would like to share, because so far you are only parroting whatever you have read or heard such as now with whatever Daniel Dennett (never heard of him ) had to say as if that gives your words some authority. Go to your own experience and see for yourself or be just like the inquiring sheep.

Actually, at least 80% of what I've said on the topic comes from my own personal experience -- they were original in that sense, at least. I don't just parrot anybody - learned that long ago when it came to political discussions. I'm one of the most individualistic guys you'll meet. When I started researching the topic of losing faith, I found that I wasn't anywhere close to the only one who had wrestled with the exact same questions, or came to the same conclusions. It was quite a relief, and comforting to know that many who shared and taught on these things were not just Internet crackpots, but very well-respected, educated leaders in their fields of study. But I'm not talking about anything that requires that level of education - only common sense. I talk a lot from my own experience, and I quote people who say the same things better than I can.

Dennett's comments on spin are a perfect example. I've innately understood those things for a long time, and have argued against the disingenuous nature of "spin" for a long time. Was first fascinated (and disgusted) by the use of it during the Clinton/Bush presidential campaign. Dennett does a very fine way of putting it to words, so I shared them.

Watch the video for yourself to find out who he is -- he's a very respected and leading neuroscientist - specializes in studying the makeup of the human mind. Even better, he's very plain-spoken and explains things in a way people can understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9w8JougLQ

Who asked you to suspend common sense when inquiring into the nature of reality. Yes it is a functioning of the inherent intelligence that is useful as it discovers what it truly is, which is not what you have previously been told it is. What is learning common sense, there would have to be an intelligence there to begin with, what is that pure intelligence that is evidently there, or are you denying it exists and is functioning the universe. If so how does learning take place, do tell. Be curious and genuinely inquire for yourself, inquire into your self aware nature instead of parroting.

I really don't get your point. Anyone who asks you not to think, is asking you to suspend common sense. Whether it's politics or religion, or any other area where someone in a higher position of authority stands to benefit from your ignorance, the principle holds the same.

And of course common sense develops over time. Common sense dictates that if you touch a hot stove, you get burned. But that concept doesn't even begin to come real to you until you've tried it.

'Were you drinking when you wrote this" .... no, maybe you might question your motives for asking. Yes, everything that is written can be pulled apart as words only ever point, point to reality, just as a road map can show the way but its not going to get you to your destination unless ya make the trip.

Umm... I had no motives. Your statement was a little hard to parse to me, and I didn't get the point about common sense. I can't even tell where you are coming from. I don't tie human common sense together in any way with the natural order of the universe (even if it makes 'sense' to some). Stick with the points as they are intended -- no need to complicate or make them abstract for the sake of argument.

First , if you don't understand what I write it does not mean that I'm trying to complicate or make things abstract. Sticking to the points as they are intended, why,.... wouldn't this exclude any new perspective from being introduced, what are these points anyway, its an open discussion about faith, religion and god, god it would seem is fairly abstract so whats your problem.
What are these questions that you say you and others wrestle with, common sense would dictate that you would at least ask some of these questions and then be open to all answers and go with what resonates for you. Dennett's comment on spin is not going answer the important question, spin is spin and common sense can easily see it as such.
You say anyone who asks you not to think is asking you to suspend common sense, strange but to use your example I don't need to think first that I shouldn't touch the hot stove would suggest that thinking and common sense are the natural functioning intelligence in operation. Why suspend thinking is it even possible, the bigger question is are "you" the thinker or more accurately are " you " the awareness that knows when there is thought happening, take a look for yourself and discover what is so. Thats not being abstract for the sake of argument its something that is real and intimately known by you alone. Its also relevant to the discussion as all the great spiritual thinkers, sages and prophets from all religions write " Know Thy Self". Ultimately that is what the spiritual search is but mainstream religion is indeed a dumbing down of that.
If you don't like my posts just skip over them if its causes you upset, lets not turn it into angry argument, its not about me its about "you". cheers.

[Rip Rokken]

Umm... I had no motives. Your statement was a little hard to parse to me, and I didn't get the point about common sense. I can't even tell where you are coming from. I don't tie human common sense together in any way with the natural order of the universe (even if it makes 'sense' to some). Stick with the points as they are intended -- no need to complicate or make them abstract for the sake of argument.

First , if you don't understand what I write it does not mean that I'm trying to complicate or make things abstract. Sticking to the points as they are intended, why,.... wouldn't this exclude any new perspective from being introduced, what are these points anyway, its an open discussion about faith, religion and god, god it would seem is fairly abstract so whats your problem.
What are these questions that you say you and others wrestle with, common sense would dictate that you would at least ask some of these questions and then be open to all answers and go with what resonates for you. Dennett's comment on spin is not going answer the important question, spin is spin and common sense can easily see it as such.
You say anyone who asks you not to think is asking you to suspend common sense, strange but to use your example I don't need to think first that I shouldn't touch the hot stove would suggest that thinking and common sense are the natural functioning intelligence in operation. Why suspend thinking is it even possible, the bigger question is are "you" the thinker or more accurately are " you " the awareness that knows when there is thought happening, take a look for yourself and discover what is so. Thats not being abstract for the sake of argument its something that is real and intimately known by you alone. Its also relevant to the discussion as all the great spiritual thinkers, sages and prophets from all religions write " Know Thy Self". Ultimately that is what the spiritual search is but mainstream religion is indeed a dumbing down of that.
If you don't like my posts just skip over them if its causes you upset, lets not turn it into angry argument, its not about me its about "you". cheers.

No, not trying to cut off other opinions at all. I meant, please TAKE my points as they are intended. I try to make straight-forward arguments, free of hidden meaning. If someone wants to explore the deep truths behind common sense as it ties into the cosmos, that's fine with me, but to me, it only muddies up the waters.

My simple, plain spoken observation is (which many will agree with) -- there are others in all areas of our lives who benefit from our ignorance, and they are more than happy to help keep us ignorant. Politicians, religious leaders, corporations, etc - they are everywhere. People never stop thinking, but they can often be made to stop wondering.

Your posts don't upset me at all - they are just a bit abstract to me and I'm apparently not gleaning the point very clearly. Just tell me what you think, or what you believe.

[majik]

Umm... I had no motives. Your statement was a little hard to parse to me, and I didn't get the point about common sense. I can't even tell where you are coming from. I don't tie human common sense together in any way with the natural order of the universe (even if it makes 'sense' to some). Stick with the points as they are intended -- no need to complicate or make them abstract for the sake of argument.

First , if you don't understand what I write it does not mean that I'm trying to complicate or make things abstract. Sticking to the points as they are intended, why,.... wouldn't this exclude any new perspective from being introduced, what are these points anyway, its an open discussion about faith, religion and god, god it would seem is fairly abstract so whats your problem.
What are these questions that you say you and others wrestle with, common sense would dictate that you would at least ask some of these questions and then be open to all answers and go with what resonates for you. Dennett's comment on spin is not going answer the important question, spin is spin and common sense can easily see it as such.
You say anyone who asks you not to think is asking you to suspend common sense, strange but to use your example I don't need to think first that I shouldn't touch the hot stove would suggest that thinking and common sense are the natural functioning intelligence in operation. Why suspend thinking is it even possible, the bigger question is are "you" the thinker or more accurately are " you " the awareness that knows when there is thought happening, take a look for yourself and discover what is so. Thats not being abstract for the sake of argument its something that is real and intimately known by you alone. Its also relevant to the discussion as all the great spiritual thinkers, sages and prophets from all religions write " Know Thy Self". Ultimately that is what the spiritual search is but mainstream religion is indeed a dumbing down of that.
If you don't like my posts just skip over them if its causes you upset, lets not turn it into angry argument, its not about me its about "you". cheers.

No, not trying to cut off other opinions at all. I meant, please TAKE my points as they are intended. I try to make straight-forward arguments, free of hidden meaning. If someone wants to explore the deep truths behind common sense as it ties into the cosmos, that's fine with me, but to me, it only muddies up the waters.

My simple, plain spoken observation is (which many will agree with) -- there are others in all areas of our lives who benefit from our ignorance, and they are more than happy to help keep us ignorant. Politicians, religious leaders, corporations, etc - they are everywhere. People never stop thinking, but they can often be made to stop wondering.

Your posts don't upset me at all - they are just a bit abstract to me and I'm apparently not gleaning the point very clearly. Just tell me what you think, or what you believe.

Lets cut to what on the surface seems to be your reasonable and valid question, " Just tell me what you think, or what you believe"

This is what Pastors, Priests, Gurus, politicians or corporations and so on are trying to tell you, what they think and what they believe in effect what you should think and believe and you are not buying into it and rightly so. The question itself is loaded, so what to do ?

The more profound question is to ask yourself "who/what am I" as I said to you earlier "know thyself" no one can answer this question for "you" but it can be pointed to with words. Remember the word is not the thing, saying "fire" all day will not burn you because the word is not the thing, its at best a pointer. Ask yourself the deeper question and see what happens.

[Gideon]

Exactly!

Jeez, Rip, what's so hard to understand?

[majik]

Exactly!

Jeez, Rip, what's so hard to understand?

Haha!! nice one.

Interesting that the questions meets subtle resistance so quickly, its not for the fearful.

The question still stands.

[Gideon]

Exactly!

Jeez, Rip, what's so hard to understand?

Haha!! nice one.

Interesting that the questions meets subtle resistance so quickly, its not for the fearful.

The question still stands.

No resistance, just teasing. You'll get used to it, otherwise your time here will be very... difficult. Or is difficulty one of those things that can't be explained and only experienced, like everything else?

[majik]

Exactly!

Jeez, Rip, what's so hard to understand?

Haha!! nice one.

Interesting that the questions meets subtle resistance so quickly, its not for the fearful.

The question still stands.

No resistance, just teasing. You'll get used to it, otherwise your time here will be very... difficult. Or is difficulty one of those things that can't be explained and only experienced, like everything else?

Maybe I was teasing you rather than ignore your post. Nothing is difficult here that I can comment on the experience, maybe you experience it and would like to explain further, I don't
know.

Edit: for those that are finding it difficult have a listen to these guys my most played CD these days, mentioned them a couple of months back, Machines of Grace, no pun intended

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMtNG8Vl ... re=related

or something a little beefier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI6QpjPMbzA

[S2M]

Duncan hit on something in the 2nd post of this thread that is extremely interesting, and the actual reason for me starting this conversation...

Now, I really don't want to debate the issue of blanket statements, generalizations, or the like. It is a famous comeback that, "Well not everybody", or "I don't think that way". This line of thinking is pulled out of the hat for lack of a cogent response....

That being said, "Does Morality only come from religion?"

And is religion's grasp on morality disingenuous?

I'll use this analogy to TRY and explain myself....

A person who uses cocaine and exclaims, "I use cocaine and I have no problems. I don't abuse it. I don't steal to get money for it, and it doesn't affect my job...cocaine is ok, it's not a bad thing.

I draw a comparison to religion...some folks here claim that they are good god-faring individuals, who aren't like the "isolated" cases where the religious have gone off the deep end and did somerhing questionable in it's name. These people are much like the cocaine person. Maybe you just can handle religion, and all it encompasses...but that doesn't mean it isn't a bad thing.

I would say I'm pretty moral. I've had my share of transgressions, never needing to bare my soul to another person to feel worth again....therefore, there must be something missing in the religious that makes them need to seek out forgiveness, and to cling to all this superstition. I would hazard a guess that parents do a great job of mental abuse to their kids by indoctrinating them to the pious life. Kids learn by modeling. And most kids look up to their parents and want to be just like them....and for those who were never spritual, but somehow find religion later in life - something traumatic must have happened for the switch....wherher it's prison, a death, or some other event. Which leads me to believe that religion is for the weak, simple-minded, and those easily swayed by the peripheral...

Anyway...for those folks that "believe", why do you insist that non-believers aren't moral?

[conversationpc]

Anyway...for those folks that "believe", why do you insist that non-believers aren't moral?

I've never said non-believers aren't moral.

[S2M]

Anyway...for those folks that "believe", why do you insist that non-believers aren't moral?

I've never said non-believers aren't moral.

Dave, you just did what I explicitly asked folks not to do....I asked people not to respond with, "I don't think that way. Whaddya mean?!"

And if you don't think that way postulate on why folks do...you're kinda smart(religion aside)...lol

[conversationpc]

Anyway...for those folks that "believe", why do you insist that non-believers aren't moral?

I've never said non-believers aren't moral.

Dave, you just did what I explicitly asked folks not to do....I asked people not to respond with, "I don't think that way. Whaddya mean?!"

And if you don't think that way postulate on why folks do...you're kinda smart(religion aside)...lol

How else are you supposed to respond to a statement like "Why do you insist that non-believers aren't moral?" when neither I or anyone else here that I'm aware of has made such a statement? Closed-minded and ignorant people make statements like that and I'm really not sure why other than they feel insecure about themselves if they happen to run across someone who doesn't believe like they do.

[Michigan Girl]

Anyway...for those folks that "believe", why do you insist that non-believers aren't moral?

I've never said non-believers aren't moral.

Dave, you just did what I explicitly asked folks not to do....I asked people not to respond with, "I don't think that way. Whaddya mean?!"

And if you don't think that way postulate on why folks do...you're kinda smart(religion aside)...lol

What's wrong with it?!? I, too, try not to stereotype and speak for a certain group as a whole!!
"All non~ believers are immoral" is about as true as saying "all believers are moral"?!? Who are these people
you speak of, who is the "YOU"?!?

[S2M]

Anyway...for those folks that "believe", why do you insist that non-believers aren't moral?

I've never said non-believers aren't moral.

Dave, you just did what I explicitly asked folks not to do....I asked people not to respond with, "I don't think that way. Whaddya mean?!"

And if you don't think that way postulate on why folks do...you're kinda smart(religion aside)...lol

What's wrong with it?!? I, too, try not to stereotype and speak for a certain group as a whole!!
"All non~ believers are immoral" is about as true as saying "all believers are moral"?!? Who are these people
you speak of, who is the "YOU"?!?

What do you mean WHO?

It permeates the very essense of the believer. It is the classic US vs. THEM dynamic. Believers think themselves moral, and therefore look to the non-believer as immoral.

And it has been mentioned in this thread. I'm just not prepared to sift through 22 pages of dogma to find it...lol

[conversationpc]

Anyway...for those folks that "believe", why do you insist that non-believers aren't moral?

I've never said non-believers aren't moral.

Dave, you just did what I explicitly asked folks not to do....I asked people not to respond with, "I don't think that way. Whaddya mean?!"

And if you don't think that way postulate on why folks do...you're kinda smart(religion aside)...lol

What's wrong with it?!? I, too, try not to stereotype and speak for a certain group as a whole!!
"All non~ believers are immoral" is about as true as saying "all believers are moral"?!? Who are these people
you speak of, who is the "YOU"?!?

What do you mean WHO?

It permeates the very essense of the believer. It is the classic US vs. THEM dynamic. Believers think themselves moral, and therefore look to the non-believer as immoral.

And it has been mentioned in this thread. I'm just not prepared to sift through 22 pages of dogma to find it...lol

I don't think anyone here has said that. I certainly haven't and I'm sure Ginger hasn't either.

[Michigan Girl]

Anyway...for those folks that "believe", why do you insist that non-believers aren't moral?

I've never said non-believers aren't moral.

Dave, you just did what I explicitly asked folks not to do....I asked people not to respond with, "I don't think that way. Whaddya mean?!"

And if you don't think that way postulate on why folks do...you're kinda smart(religion aside)...lol

What's wrong with it?!? I, too, try not to stereotype and speak for a certain group as a whole!!
"All non~ believers are immoral" is about as true as saying "all believers are moral"?!? Who are these people
you speak of, who is the "YOU"?!?

What do you mean WHO?

It permeates the very essense of the believer. It is the classic US vs. THEM dynamic. Believers think themselves moral, and therefore look to the non-believer as immoral.

And it has been mentioned in this thread. I'm just not prepared to sift through 22 pages of dogma to find it...lol

Me either ...but outside of this box, I know what you are saying.
There certainly are folks/believers who make a very bad name
for those of us who believe ...I call it the "better than" religion ...

[Greg]

S2M:

You seem to be starting a debate that just is not there. Even in the most charismatic church that I have ever attend, I have never heard the minister nor the people in the church's congregation say that non-believers are immoral people. That's just ridiculous. And then, you state that believers are weak minded people. So, not only do you not know what you're talking about, but you want to go the extra mile to offend people of faith. Very classy.

[Michigan Girl]

S2M:

You seem to be starting a debate that just is not there. Even in the most charismatic church that I have ever attend, I have never heard the minister nor the people in the church's congregation say that non-believers are immoral people. That's just ridiculous. And then, you state that believers are weak minded people. So, not only do you not know what you're talking about, but you want to go the extra mile to offend people of faith. Very classy.

He has to be talking about churches/people such as WBBC, let us
not mention the name out loud ...awful people of faith, or something trying to resemble faith/religion!!

[Melissa]

Me either ...but outside of this box, I know what you are saying.
There certainly are folks/believers who make a very bad name
for those of us who believe ...I call it the "better than" religion ...

Exactly the perfect description. I see that from the "born again" types all the time, and it's this conceited attitude of "I'm going to heaven because of what I have accepted into my life, and shame for all of you who haven't done the same!" including organized religions, which they seem to hate. And they change themselves so much, and it just doesn't make sense to me, to have a constant fight with yourself about who you are. I even saw someone say once they needed to "empty me of me, so I can be filled with you" (meaning Christ). Why should anyone have to empty themselves of who they are? It's just not something I understand.

[S2M]

S2M:

You seem to be starting a debate that just is not there. Even in the most charismatic church that I have ever attend, I have never heard the minister nor the people in the church's congregation say that non-believers are immoral people. That's just ridiculous. And then, you state that believers are weak minded people. So, not only do you not know what you're talking about, but you want to go the extra mile to offend people of faith. Very classy.

First of all, if morality comes from religion - and that's what the church teaches...wouldn't the converse be that non-believers are immoral?

It is classic logic:

If S then P. Not S, then not P

Secondly, and I've drawn this out in detail...If I came to you and told you I started a religion, and believed in the Purple Ant People of Agnotis...and every 2nd Tuesday of the month worshipped aluminum foil pyramids, and sacrificed Cicadas in honor of the Ant god, Pantok....wouldn't you called me simple-minded? Oh, and I know this is true because some homeless guy, standing on a milkcrate in Central Park said it was....and I have FAITH.

[Michigan Girl]

Me either ...but outside of this box, I know what you are saying.
There certainly are folks/believers who make a very bad name
for those of us who believe ...I call it the "better than" religion ...

Exactly the perfect description. I see that from the "born again" types all the time, and it's this conceited attitude of "I'm going to heaven because of what I have accepted into my life, and shame for all of you who haven't done the same!" including organized religions, which they seem to hate. And they change themselves so much, and it just doesn't make sense to me, to have a constant fight with yourself about who you are. I even saw someone say once they needed to "empty me of me, so I can be filled with you" (meaning Christ). Why should anyone have to empty themselves of who they are? It's just not something I understand.

These particular types look down their noses at those of faith, as well ...if they don't
do it exactly like them!!!

[Melissa]

Me either ...but outside of this box, I know what you are saying.
There certainly are folks/believers who make a very bad name
for those of us who believe ...I call it the "better than" religion ...

Exactly the perfect description. I see that from the "born again" types all the time, and it's this conceited attitude of "I'm going to heaven because of what I have accepted into my life, and shame for all of you who haven't done the same!" including organized religions, which they seem to hate. And they change themselves so much, and it just doesn't make sense to me, to have a constant fight with yourself about who you are. I even saw someone say once they needed to "empty me of me, so I can be filled with you" (meaning Christ). Why should anyone have to empty themselves of who they are? It's just not something I understand.

These particular types look down their noses at those of faith, as well ...if they don't
do it exactly like them!!!

Exactly, lol.