CHILD ABUSE!!!!

[StevePerryHair]

I am older than some of you, and my catholic school wasn't allowed to touch us when I was in elementary school! Sure, they used all the psychological abuse they could, but never laid a finger on us! I guess the diocese of Erie was ahead of the times with that change! When I switched to public school in 7th grade, they were still paddling. And not little smacks either. But that stopped too, once i got into 8th grade. And kids acted the same regardless. Hitting in schools really has nothing to do with respect levels today. Kids who were paddled, were paddled constantly! It didnt change them. It's just the mentality and breakdown of respect of society in general that causes that. Adults aren't respectful, and kids are a reflection of that.

[Journey/Survivor]

I am older than some of you, and my catholic school wasn't allowed to touch us when I was in elementary school! Sure, they used all the psychological abuse they could, but never laid a finger on us! I guess the diocese of Erie was ahead of the times with that change! When I switched to public school in 7th grade, they were still paddling. And not little smacks either. But that stopped too, once i got into 8th grade. And kids acted the same regardless. Hitting in schools really has nothing to do with respect levels today. Kids who were paddled, were paddled constantly! It didnt change them. It's just the mentality and breakdown of respect of society in general that causes that. Adults aren't respectful, and kids are a reflection of that.

I'm NOT a racist. I hate racism. And in fact, I often am disturbed by some of the racist comments that are made by some people on here. So, I really hate to say this...but....

Percentage wise, there are more black people in America that commit crimes than whites. And yet black kids are given "Whoopings" (spanking and even beatings) far more than most white kids. Obviously "Whoopings" don't keep kids in line. If anything, it makes them more violent, too.

[Saint John]

BTW, Dan...I will be posting an EPIC Dragon story in the next 24 hours...I'm getting the final details sometime later tonight, but it makes the last two read like a Charlotte Bronte novel by comparison.

YES!!! Those are the fucking best!

[StevePerryHair]

I am older than some of you, and my catholic school wasn't allowed to touch us when I was in elementary school! Sure, they used all the psychological abuse they could, but never laid a finger on us! I guess the diocese of Erie was ahead of the times with that change! When I switched to public school in 7th grade, they were still paddling. And not little smacks either. But that stopped too, once i got into 8th grade. And kids acted the same regardless. Hitting in schools really has nothing to do with respect levels today. Kids who were paddled, were paddled constantly! It didnt change them. It's just the mentality and breakdown of respect of society in general that causes that. Adults aren't respectful, and kids are a reflection of that.

I'm NOT a racist. I hate racism. And in fact, I often am disturbed by some of the racist comments that are made by some people on here. So, I really hate to say this...but....

Percentage wise, there are more black people in America that commit crimes than whites. And yet black kids are given "Whoopings" (spanking and even beatings) far more than most white kids. Obviously "Whoopings" don't keep kids in line. If anything, it makes them more violent, too.

No, I know what you mean. I've heard "Oprah" say the same thing more than once. She attributes it to the slave days though, and a cultural cycle that needs to be broken. I think she has a point. Though I know a lot of people hate her! Kids are so much a reflection of their parents, it's not even funny! It doesn't mean good parents can't have a child who behaves badly or vice versa. But in general, when you have parents who disrespect authority, so will their children.

[yulog]

I'm willing to bet this kid has some kind of reactive attachment disorder, so many of the Russian adoptees have this , and for all that think just loving, holding, hugging these kids will help fix them. it just doesn't work that way(alot of RAD kids do not like to be loved, held or hugged) .

These kids have extreme anger fits , lie constantly, show to be uncaring(no moral compass whatsoever), and are very violent. They dont respond well to time outs or conventional methods. Most parents will try everything to get these kids to stop their negative behaviors, they start out with time outs, and restrictions on things the child likes to do, then progress to all kinds of measures to get them to stop (most do not work).
I know several families first hand that have 7 to 10 yr olds with this and they're afraid of their kids. One family locks their kid into his room at night because he has made active attempts to kill his parents with a knife. If you met this boy you would never know it because he's so nice around strangers(another common symptom of RAD- they will bond with strangers but not with family).


If this kid has RAD he has been doing a lot more than the small little set up piece that this mom was coaxed into doing to try and get help for her kid from Dr Phils tv show. More than likely this kid is peeing all over the house and/or school also he may defecate in places that he shouldn't and may smear it everywhere, and /or throw it at others. These are special needs kids, and no parent is equipped to deal with them( Most psychiatric professionals struggle with these kids). Sorry, to some of the people here that are hell bent on considering this mom a child abuser(my gut tells me there are many extenuating circumstances). I don't think she needs to go to jail, I think she needs help with this kid and the psychiatric community has been known to not provide the care that these kids and parents need.


It's very easy to get emotionally involved with this, especially if you have a kid

I'm not trying to say that Lynn , Nat , Melissa or anyone is wrong to feel the way they do, I just think theres more to this story, its odd that there is not much of any info other than the video up , I don't even know what this womans name is other than the hot sauce lady. A friend of mine said he thought he heard that the husband is a police officer, if thats the case theres just way to many things that are not really matching up for this to be a clear cut case of abuse.

[StevePerryHair]

Yul....it just seems like you are diagnosing this kid with some extreme disorders. And who knows. BUT, when you watch and listen to that tape, he had his card moved in school. He said why. And to me, they are normal reasons any teacher moves a card. Where did you see fits of anger in the behavior in school? Where do you see fits of anger when he is completely compliant, able to sit there the entire time this mom puts him through his "consequences". Where do you see any signs of this child being imbalanced in this way? I see a child who is PETRIFIED of his own mother. Which makes me wonder how the hell she treats him with the cameras off! Could this angry disordered child you see have this kind of control?? I see a child who lied, because whether he did or not, he was getting one of these extreme punishments.

I was a volunteer classroom helper in my kids school. I went in a few times a week, when each of my 3 kids were K through 4th grade, to read with the kids, help in the classroom, do things for teachers.....I watched the same kids get their cards moved everyday. The same crap. Out of their seats at the wrong times, talking to friends, not doing work, not listening to the teacher...etc....the teachers make the KIDS move the cards to disrupt their behavior, and the kids do it, and MOST, especially the kids this boys age, don't like it. They usually cry. This boy SAID the reasons his cards were moved. They sounded pretty typical to me.

We were not in that courtroom. We have no idea what other evidence was admitted to those jurors. Though the video is damning enough. Let's go worst case scenario and say this child is emotionally disturbed so severly like you describe, that is HARDLY an acceptable punishment. Just because a child can't control themselves doesn't give the mother a right to put him through torturous acts over and over. They didn't work. The only thing it's going to do is damage that child further. It's just insane to me.

I have a brother with issues I would not care to discuss publicly. But there isn't anything I haven't seen first hand in a frustrated parent. My parents STRUGGLED with his behavior, from the time he was a toddler and with his issues as an adult now. He was CONSTANTLY having behavioral issues in school. He was labeled ADD, but we know it was more than that. Back then, they SUCKED at diagnosing kids though. But not EVER could I have IMAGINED my mother doing something like this to him! She never could. Something is wrong with that woman.

[StevePerryHair]

Oh, and with the dad being a police officer thing....my husband teaches that class TO cops! And one of the things he does the first day of class is presents them with scenarios, to see where they are in their thinking, and how they would assess it if going into a situation like that. He said they are all over the place on it. Even many COPS don't understand the laws and where that line of abuse starts, because it's such a grey area when they read it in the books. That's why he TEACHES this class to them. It's continuing education so they understand the laws better, and can better determine what to consider abuse. So her husband just may be one of those cops who didn't understand the law.

Sorry, on my phone and it's easier just to start this post new!

[S2M]

Whatever works....end of story.

[StevePerryHair]

Whatever works....end of story.

End up in jail..end of story.

[S2M]

Whatever works....end of story.

End up in jail..end

of story.

I'm not talking about sticking a kid in a cold shower, or making him hold hotsauce in his mouth for an inordinate amount of time...

Sometimes I wonder if anyone reads my "serious" posts.

I would have no problem putting hotsauce on my finger and rubbing it on a kid's tongue, or lips.

I would have no issue making a kid sit in a chair for an hour. Or in the corner for that same hour. Taking things away doesn't always work, however, it may have with your kids - then again, you may have had 3 angels...relatively speaking.

You find out that one thing that the kid absolutely despises, and you do it. Nip that shit in the bud. Don't pussyfoot around trying this, and that...just do what needs to be done to stop the behavior.

And the MOST important thing is to FOLLOW THROUGH. If you choose to take away a cell phone, or TV privileges for a week, don't get all wishy-washy and give the stuff back after the 3rd day...punishment needs to be swift and consistent.

A child's personality is pretty much permanently in place by age 6....don't make the mistake of being lenient because of the young age. I'm not saying you should "pummel" your 4-year old. But a good tongue-lashing, coupled with something else the child absolutely hates is a good recipe....

FEAR isn't a bad thing with kids....it is a SUPREME motivator, believe me.

The "supposed" fear of another terrorist attack got Bush re-elected. If fear works on adults, imagine what it does to kids.....

[StevePerryHair]

Well when you say "anything that works", it's pretty broad! I mean locking a kid in a closet for 3 days will work to stop them...but you can't do it!

My kids are awesome, but far from angels. They are all completely different personalities. The one I've struggled with the most is actually my "gifted" child. Because anywhere you are out of the norm on that IQ bell curve, you are not going to be dealing with normal behaviors and emotions at all times! Not for what's acceptable for functioning in society anyway. The further away you are from average on that curve, the more "different" they are. Many times it's behavioral and emotional. Hers have not been severe, no. But different phases of her life, we've been challenged. She's a great teen now though.

My youngest I had a couple of years of her having anxiety at bed time to where it disrupted the whole house. I don't care to relive that! But with time and patience and sometimes, yes me sometimes losing it yelling at her, she did grow out of it. I have no CLUE why it happened. But it was always when school was starting...end of summer or after breaks...I won't bore you with the things she did, but it took up most of my evenings dealing with her. Doing something like this woman did could never enter my mind.

Point is, NO child is perfect. You are going to have times you are challenged with things. And how you handle it will determine future behavior. I disagree everything is set by 6. In general, sure, but I've seem my kids change as they've reach different ages. Most do grow and mature. Usually their friend circles play a big part on how they end up behaving at some point too.

Yeah, there is some crappy inconsistent parenting to the other extreme too. People just don't want to deal with it. They are too busy, too tired, and they take the easy way out. What this woman did is an extreme the other way.

I'm telling you, my mom has been through HELL with my brother. Since he was little, and still today too in some ways. There is NOTHING she could do then or now to control his behavior. It's very impulse controlled. She has tried so many things with him and nothing ever worked. Beating a child or torturous punishment wouldn't have worked either. None of those things are going to change brain chemistry. It's very hard to have a child who has issues you can't fix. It's heart breaking and my mom has suffered over the years over it, along side him. Yet in the end, she knows her pain can't be as great as it has to be to be HIM living in this world, not fitting in. She could never hurt him the way this woman did. And none of the other punishments you described ever worked for him either. I dont know the answers. I dont know why some kids are born this way. I wish I did, to erase a lot of years of stress in my family! You can't just hurt people or children because they don't act normal though. It's not ok.

[Melissa]

I think trying to psych diagnose this kid based on that video is extreme. IF the kid were THAT bad of a child behavior wise, who couldn't be "controlled", he would have slapped this bitch right in the face when she screamed in his face. I've been a pediatric nurse for 17 years, I am WELL aware of child behavior, I'll go round after round with anyone who wants to argue with me about this, bring it on. THAT child's behavior in that video shows to ME he was frightened of his mother, NOT some out of control major behavior issue problem. A Kindergartener got his card moved for arguing with another child over pencils is some out of control behavior problem child? Yeah ok Boy I feel sorry for some of you AND your kids if that's what you truly believe and also believe doing to a 5 year old what she did is ok. He was VERY submissive and quiet and TOOK every bit of the shit she did to him, and only screamed when he finally became so frightened and WORN down emotionally and physically he couldn't control himself from crying anymore. She's a PATHETIC parent and human being to gain such pleasure from BULLYING her own SMALL child into a state of complete and total fear.

[conversationpc]

I'm willing to bet this kid has some kind of reactive attachment disorder, so many of the Russian adoptees have this , and for all that think just loving, holding, hugging these kids will help fix them. it just doesn't work that way(alot of RAD kids do not like to be loved, held or hugged) .

These kids have extreme anger fits , lie constantly, show to be uncaring(no moral compass whatsoever), and are very violent. They dont respond well to time outs or conventional methods. Most parents will try everything to get these kids to stop their negative behaviors, they start out with time outs, and restrictions on things the child likes to do, then progress to all kinds of measures to get them to stop (most do not work).
I know several families first hand that have 7 to 10 yr olds with this and they're afraid of their kids. One family locks their kid into his room at night because he has made active attempts to kill his parents with a knife. If you met this boy you would never know it because he's so nice around strangers(another common symptom of RAD- they will bond with strangers but not with family).


If this kid has RAD he has been doing a lot more than the small little set up piece that this mom was coaxed into doing to try and get help for her kid from Dr Phils tv show. More than likely this kid is peeing all over the house and/or school also he may defecate in places that he shouldn't and may smear it everywhere, and /or throw it at others. These are special needs kids, and no parent is equipped to deal with them( Most psychiatric professionals struggle with these kids). Sorry, to some of the people here that are hell bent on considering this mom a child abuser(my gut tells me there are many extenuating circumstances). I don't think she needs to go to jail, I think she needs help with this kid and the psychiatric community has been known to not provide the care that these kids and parents need.

Yikes! My wife and I have actually lived some of this. My daughter has never tried to kill us but I can relate to a lot of what you said here. Earlier this year, in a fit of rage in the car, my daughter pulled my wife's hair from behind while she was driving, causing her to wreck the car into the side of a bridge. The car had to be towed and, luckily, there were no injuries. All this was over my daughter not getting everything she wanted from Taco Bell. Fortunately, we've made a lot of progress overall but there are still occasionally some really big bumps in the road.

[Melissa]

I would have no problem putting hotsauce on my finger and rubbing it on a kid's tongue, or lips.

See I DO have a problem with that. I find it to be a f'ed up dominance thing to FORCE something in someone's mouth, ESPECIALLY a small child. If someone tried to force hot sauce in my mouth, I'd kick them in the balls.

[Greg]

I think there needs to be a balance between physical correction and vocal correction with children. I don't believe that all spanking or smacking of hands is physical abuse. At some point, your child is going to learn that they can pretty much do whatever they want with little or no consequences. And, this is how they will grow up in life. At the same time, I don't believe "beating" your children is right either. What I have found to be the case most often is that how the parents act around the children is how the children will act toward the parents. If the child sees the parents cussing somebody out, or cussing at each other, hitting each other, showing a "power struggle" between the parents, the children are going to pick up on these traits and will start mimicking the same behavior. Even if it's just that the parents are aggressive in their approach to certain situations in life (not necessarily violent, but just aggressive) children will pick up on these actions and act accordingly.

Some will say they are completely against any type of physical correction, and will say they never once had to physically correct their child. What they may not realize is that the parents themselves might approach everyday life in a calm manner. They probably still correct their children, but it doesn't take much correction because the children pick up on the personalities of the parent. The long and short of it is, unless there is some type of mental issues already present, the parents just need to first take inventory of themselves and how they react to things in their life, and I betcha more times than not, it's going to translate into how the children are going to act as well. The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree.

[Michigan Girl]

I don't think there is anything wrong w/a pop on the behind or a tap
on the hand and I recall saying out loud, to my girls, on more than one occasion ...
"that kid needs his ass beat." when we'd witness a tantrum thrower in public.
But, I'm not a hitter and I wasn't hit ...I was
grounded ... a lot!! I remember begging to be beaten in exchange, to no
avail ...

[bluejeangirl76]

I think there needs to be a balance between physical correction and vocal correction with children. I don't believe that all spanking or smacking of hands is physical abuse.

There's a fine line... I don't consider spanking "abuse" either... my mom did that with us... but some parents do take it too far. Personally, I wouldn't do it, but that's me. I don't think the cold shower is "abuse" either... what comes out of the garden hose when you fill up a kiddie pool or run the sprinkler for the kids to play in - ICE cold water. Or when kids go swimming in the lake... it's cold as hell. I believe that the kid in the video was most likely screaming that way because that's what kids do when they're being yelled at and being punished, plain and simple, and it was less about cold water. Cold water doesn't hurt people unless you're submerged in freezing water for extended time. It's just uncomfortable, which is probably why the mom was doing that. (does not necessarily excuse it though) I wouldn't do the cold shower thing, though, and I would never ever do the hot sauce thing either. It's just mean. Plenty more effective ways to make your point.

I'm the type who will take away things and priveledges as punishment. That always had much more effect on me than being spanked. All that did was make me pissed off at my mom. My niece screamed way louder than that cold shower kid when I wouldn't allow her to watch a TV show because she told a lie, and she wasn't even in "major" trouble like the kid in the video. My other niece, the little bookworm, would be FAR more upset if her Kindle got taken away than if she were spanked.

[Melissa]

The kid screamed the way he did because he had reached the point of being emotionally worn down to FEAR. I'm a mother and I have years and years of experience in my career dealing with frightened kids when I've had to draw blood on them for labs, start IV's on them, etc. etc. and that scream was one of him reaching the point of FEAR. Not because of cold water. And THAT is NOT ok.

[StevePerryHair]

The kid screamed the way he did because he had reached the point of being emotionally worn down to FEAR. I'm a mother and I have years and years of experience in my career dealing with frightened kids when I've had to draw blood on them for labs, start IV's on them, etc. etc. and that scream was one of him reaching the point of FEAR. Not because of cold water. And THAT is NOT ok.

That's what bothered me... the build up, the anticipation, the fear.... and I say AGAIN, I wonder what she does to him when NOT on camera, that he was SO compliant!! I can tell you right now, if I tried to put ANY of my 3 kids in a cold shower, they would fight me to the death! I've tried removing them from a room at that age, and you have to freaking drag them!! And he had a cry I have not heard either. It's not a cry of pain or an exaggerated cry because he's over reacting. No way.

[Melissa]

The kid screamed the way he did because he had reached the point of being emotionally worn down to FEAR. I'm a mother and I have years and years of experience in my career dealing with frightened kids when I've had to draw blood on them for labs, start IV's on them, etc. etc. and that scream was one of him reaching the point of FEAR. Not because of cold water. And THAT is NOT ok.

That's what bothered me... the build up, the anticipation, the fear.... and I say AGAIN, I wonder what she does to him when NOT on camera, that he was SO compliant!! I can tell you right now, if I tried to put ANY of my 3 kids in a cold shower, they would fight me to the death! I've tried removing them from a room at that age, and you have to freaking drag them!! And he had a cry I have not heard either. It's not a cry of pain or an exaggerated cry because he's over reacting. No way.

Exactly, *I* can tell by his screams he had been taunted and taunted and worn down and worn down to the point of breaking emotionally and not being able to hold his fear in any longer. And you are EXACTLY right, for him to be SO compliant with her, means he HAS been treated worse to the point of FEAR of her, and was so submissive because of that.

[Michigan Girl]

The method she uses is torture ...anguish of body or mind.

[Melissa]

The method she uses is torture ...anguish of body or mind.

Exactly. I love my career, but unfortunately it has involved seeing many abuse cases, some so horrific they are NIGHTMARES. And torture IS abuse, and that's exactly what she did to this kid. Anyone who can't see that needs their head examined.

[Saint John]

Exactly, *I* can tell by his screams he had been taunted and taunted and worn down and worn down to the point of breaking emotionally and not being able to hold his fear in any longer. And you are EXACTLY right, for him to be SO compliant with her, means he HAS been treated worse to the point of FEAR of her, and was so submissive because of that.

I have to call bullshit on this, Mel. You can't "tell" anything from that video. Nothing. I was the worst fucking kid ever. I tried punching a doctor, was sent for an evaluation for attacking my third grade teacher, and did a whole host of other things, and the sole reason was that I was a little fucking brat. Additionally, I would scream absolutely bloody murder at the top of my lungs and cry for HOURS when disciplined in the smallest way ... like being sent to my room. I guarantee, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that my blood curdling screams as a 5-7 year old would make this kid look like he was having a good time. I was raised by a single parent, my mom. I beat her down to the point of almost, and she came very close, to sending me to a boarding school.

2 things made my behavior change. The first and most important was my mom sitting me down and explaining to me that she could simply no longer take care of me. I had attacked my 3rd grade teacher, I had shot my grandmother with a BB gun (more than once) and, almost from the time I could walk had attacked all doctors, dentists and any other physicians that I didn't feel comfortable around. But the game ended in 2 fell swoops. The first was my mother calling the boarding school and talking over options and cost with them, and the second was going to my dad's house and having mentally and physically dress me down to the point where there was a new found fear instilled in me if I ever treated my mom like that again. The bullshit ended when things came to a head, and that might be what this kid needs.

But that video doesn't "show" any abuse. But it possibly shows a mother at her wit's end. Tapatio isn't nearly as hot as Tabasco sauce and the shower scene doesn't even show the kid getting wet! Is it hitting his feet? His knees? Fuck, is it even hitting him at all? You know, sometimes kids, I was one of them, are just little fucking assholes that need to be shown some direct methods of being uncomfortable. And that's all this was. Abuse? No way. A shitty parent? Perhaps.

[Melissa]

Here's what amazes me about people who defend this woman's actions, or anyone who does shit like this to a child:

Let's say this weren't a mother and child, and instead a husband and wife. Wife comes home with a speeding ticket. Husband decides she needs to "learn a lesson" about this "behavior". Husband screams in his wife's face, makes her sit down and FORCES hot sauce in her mouth and makes her hold it there. Proceeds to scream in her face some more while warning her she better not spit out that sauce. Then decides she needs a little more bullying and wearing down of her as a human being, you know, so she can learn that "lesson", and proceeds to STRIP his wife naked and FORCE her into a cold shower and hold her there until HE decides her "lesson" has been taught.

Still ok for these things to be done in that situation? No? Yeah thought so.

How many of you men would do something like that to your wife? How many of you women would PUT UP with something like that from your husband?

And there you go. Completely f'ed up thinking that heaven forbid a husband do this to a grown woman, but it's perfectly ok for a mother to do it to a small child.

[Melissa]

I'll agree to disagree with you Dan. She went too far and simply did nothing but emotional anguish to that kid. I don't care how hot the sauce was, and I don't care that the water was cold and "didn't hurt". Just because the methods she chose of emotionally damaging her kid didn't leave physical marks doesn't mean it's ok.

[StevePerryHair]

I think it's so interesting that most of the men posting here don't see anything wrong with anything she did. And think it's necessary. Only one or two spoke up that she may have gone overboard, but it wasn't that bad. So far the only guy I know who has a strong stance against what she did, is my cop husband. Who sees this shit EVERYDAY, and weeds out the bullshit calls from the real calls of abuse in our city all the time. We are in the south, where it's even more prevalent. You people have blinders on! Seriously! Funny how it's mostly the mom's who have given birth and raised our babies who can't stomach this horrible shit for what it is, abuse. That's my last post. It's pointless.

[StevePerryHair]

In this thread... oops!!

[conversationpc]

In this thread... oops!!

Damn!

[conversationpc]

I think it's so interesting that most of the men posting here don't see anything wrong with anything she did. And think it's necessary. Only one or two spoke up that she may have gone overboard, but it wasn't that bad. So far the only guy I know who has a strong stance against what she did, is my cop husband. Who sees this shit EVERYDAY, and weeds out the bullshit calls from the real calls of abuse in our city all the time. We are in the south, where it's even more prevalent. You people have blinders on! Seriously! Funny how it's mostly the mom's who have given birth and raised our babies who can't stomach this horrible shit for what it is, abuse. That's my last post. It's pointless.

I'd love to show you videos of what our daughter has done to us in the past and, like I said, she's made a lot progress since then. The stuff my wife has put up with make what was done to this child seem like a walk in the park. That doesn't make it right but there are many more children, and parents for that matter, out there that go through real abuse that leaves more than just a scar on the skin. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to knock my daughter senseless because of the things she put my wife through on almost a daily basis for the first year after we adopted her. Most folks don't understand that there are often parents who are abused also.

[Michigan Girl]

In this thread... oops!!

I am lol'ingmao ...
That's what happens when you storm out of the room and slam
the door, missy ...