I don't know about you but I find the raid on Gibson Guitars very disturbing on a number of different levels. Please watch this video and I urge all my fellow MR music lovers from the US regardless of your political affiliations to write the President, your congressman/woman and senators. While our brave members of the military are in foreign lands protecting our freedom, back home our own government is taking them away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-taqM5Sk0
US Government's Gestapo Tactics
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US Government's Gestapo Tactics
by Peartree12249 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:08 pm
Grammar, the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.
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by steveo777 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:19 pm
This was fucking sickening. What has happened to our country. Not to change the subject, but fucking Joe Arpaio rocks!
7 Arrested in Fake ID Raid at 2 Arizona Restaurants
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/03/7- ... z1WxDJIicc
Illegals are stealing billions from our country. We want to now put a quota in to support foreign labor. Fuck that!
We are soon going to total anarchy when the people have finally had enough of this shit.
I hate to whine about a problem without presenting a solution. Here is mine: Anyone who is in this country illegally, who is holding a job, who has no criminal record can stay and
we'll give you amnesty, provided you, nor your woman or kids do not draw any goverment assistance. Otherwise, your ass will be arrested and booted out of here and so will your "anchor babies". After this resolution, anyone caught entering this great country or anyone caught smuggling them will be shot dead as an enemy of state.
7 Arrested in Fake ID Raid at 2 Arizona Restaurants
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/03/7- ... z1WxDJIicc
Illegals are stealing billions from our country. We want to now put a quota in to support foreign labor. Fuck that!
We are soon going to total anarchy when the people have finally had enough of this shit.
I hate to whine about a problem without presenting a solution. Here is mine: Anyone who is in this country illegally, who is holding a job, who has no criminal record can stay and
we'll give you amnesty, provided you, nor your woman or kids do not draw any goverment assistance. Otherwise, your ass will be arrested and booted out of here and so will your "anchor babies". After this resolution, anyone caught entering this great country or anyone caught smuggling them will be shot dead as an enemy of state.
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by JRNYMAN » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:38 pm
WOW... just Wow! If the Feds had a legitimate case and were being straight up and open about everything, then it would be fairly safe to assume they had reason to investigate the situation but when they raid an American icon like Gibson whose track record and reputation are like beacons not only in a business sense but in name recognition for the quality of its products, and do it so secretively, disclosing nothing, failing to charge them with a crime, confiscate property without a court order (which, since the agents were probably armed, constitutes armed robbery) and providing the company with any court documents nor a court where they can protest and/or plead their case, sends up all kinds of flags and implications of impropriety. AND IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME IT'S HAPPENED - TO THE SAME COMPANY!!!!! Gibson should have no problem finding an attorney who is very good at suing the federal gov't. especially given the bullshit surrounding this case.
This is a travesty and a blatant abuse of power and I pray to God this works out in Gibson's favor and sends a message to the feds!!
This is a travesty and a blatant abuse of power and I pray to God this works out in Gibson's favor and sends a message to the feds!!
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by mikemarrs » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:30 pm
AMERICA, The idiots in power are doing their best to hurt her and the abuse needs to stop.They are ruining such an outstanding great place and the sad thing is no one is stopping it.Feels like here in the future would be a really good time for some type of revolution or drastic change.....before its too late.
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by No Surprize » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:30 pm
steveo777 wrote:This was fucking sickening. What has happened to our country. Not to change the subject, but fucking Joe Arpaio rocks!
7 Arrested in Fake ID Raid at 2 Arizona Restaurants
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/03/7- ... z1WxDJIicc
Illegals are stealing billions from our country. We want to now put a quota in to support foreign labor. Fuck that!
We are soon going to total anarchy when the people have finally had enough of this shit.
I hate to whine about a problem without presenting a solution. Here is mine: Anyone who is in this country illegally, who is holding a job, who has no criminal record can stay and
we'll give you amnesty, provided you, nor your woman or kids do not draw any goverment assistance. Otherwise, your ass will be arrested and booted out of here and so will your "anchor babies". After this resolution, anyone caught entering this great country or anyone caught smuggling them will be shot dead as an enemy of state.
Truer words have never been spoken!
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My generations "Jimmy Page"
My generations "Jimmy Page"
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by ebake02 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:42 pm
slucero wrote:Started on October 26, 2001 with the signing into law of the Patriot Act.
Exactly, that law should've never been passed. The Patriot Act was a knee jerk reaction to September 11. Congress over-reacted big time, if they would have waited a bit to calm down they would've realized that this type of law isn't necessary.
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by Ehwmatt » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:56 am
ebake02 wrote:slucero wrote:Started on October 26, 2001 with the signing into law of the Patriot Act.
Exactly, that law should've never been passed. The Patriot Act was a knee jerk reaction to September 11. Congress over-reacted big time, if they would have waited a bit to calm down they would've realized that this type of law isn't necessary.
Wrong. This started decades before 9/11 when the federal government (more specifically, the legislature) started federalizing crime at an alarming level. Crime control was supposed to be almost exclusively within the state's province, but the federal government can now enforce an estimated 3,300 federal crimes which span some 27,000 pages and 40 different titles of the U.S. Code. Many of these crimes are not "moral" offenses and indeed, many of them don't even require you to have any criminal intent in committing them before you cna be held accountable in devastating ways (e.g., jail time and massive fines). Many of them are based on arcane regulations that can be enforced or ignored at the AUSA's complete discretion, and simply cannot be known in advance.
I like to say we have the "There oughta be a law for..." syndrome. Every time something profoundly disturbing and unusual happens, savvy legislators try and pass a law for political points. For instance, the whole slew of "cyber bullying" laws proposed (and passed in some instances) in state and federal legislatures are knee-jerk reactions to a few unstable kids who couldn't take some heat from online pranks or mean-spirited insults. Mean? Sure. Criminal? Almost never, despite the fact that some unhinged children might respond in extreme ways (e.g., suicide).
This is one issue that's indisputably bi-partisan. Both parties do it ALL THE TIME.
The criminal law shouldn't exist to regulate every minute detail of civility, social conduct, or even environmentalist cause, but it does. Civil suits and monetary damages suffice for most of what's criminal at the federal level.
For instance, if Gibson really was violating environmental laws here, the government should be limited to suing the company civilly.
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by RocknRoll » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:09 am
slucero wrote:Started on October 26, 2001 with the signing into law of the Patriot Act.
I believe this is the Lacey Act of 1900, which was amended in 2008 to include plants.
I posted about this last week and personally I think it's getting down to government agencies getting power hungry. There was no way they needed to conduct an armed raid on a legitimate US company! I agree a civil suit would have worked more effectively.
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by JRNYMAN » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:06 am
Here's the NPR report on the story which gives more details and fills in the blanks to some extent.
You can listen to the report here...
http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011 ... department
...or read the transcript right here:
Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department
Last week federal marshals raided the Gibson Guitar Corporation in Tennessee. It wasn't the first time. The government appears to be preparing to charge the famous builder of instruments with trafficking in illegally obtained wood. It's a rare collision of music and environmental regulation.
In the hottest part of an August Tennessee day last Thursday, Gibson Guitar CEO Henry Juszkiewicz stood out in the full sun for 30 minutes and vented to the press about the events of the day before.
"We had a raid," he said, "with federal marshals that were armed, that came in, evacuated our factory, shut down production, sent our employees home and confiscated wood."
The raids at two Nashville facilities and one in Memphis recalled a similar raid in Nashville in November 2009, when agents seized a shipment of ebony from Madagascar. They were enforcing the Lacey Act, a century-old endangered species law that was amended in 2008 to include plants as well as animals. But Juszkiewicz says the government won't tell him exactly how — or if — his company has violated that law.
"We're in this really incredible situation. We have been implicated in wrongdoing and we haven't been charged with anything," he says. "Our business has been injured to millions of dollars. And we don't even have a court we can go to and say, 'Look, here's our position.'"
The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.
Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.
"Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."
Gibson vigorously denies these allegations, maintaining that all of its purchases from Madagascar have complied with U.S. and Malagasy law. A company attorney says Gibson has presented documents to support that claim and that the recent raid seized legally obtained wood from India. He adds that the company stopped importing wood from Madagascar in 2009.
Chris Martin, Chairman and CEO of the C.F. Martin Guitar Co. in Nazareth, Pa., says that when he first heard guitars built from Madagascar rosewood, he dreamed it might be the long-sought substitute for Brazilian rosewood, whose trade was banned in the 1990s due to over-harvest. Then the situation in Madagascar changed.
"There was a coup," Martin says. "What we heard was the international community has come to the conclusion that the coup created an illegitimate government. That's when we said, 'Okay, we can not buy any more of this wood.'"
And while some say the Lacey Act is burdensome, Martin supports it: "I think it's a wonderful thing. I think illegal logging is appalling. It should stop. And if this is what it takes unfortunately to stop unscrupulous operators, I'm all for it. It's tedious, but we're getting through it."
Others in the guitar world aren't so upbeat. Attorney Ronald Bienstock says the Gibson raids have aroused the guitar builders he represents because the Lacey Act is retroactive. He says they're worried they might be forced to prove the provenance of wood they acquired decades ago.
"There hasn't been that moment where people have quote tested the case. 'What is compliance? What is actual compliance? How have I complied?' We're lacking that."
He's even warned clients to be wary of traveling abroad with old guitars, because the law says owners can be asked to account for every wooden part of their guitars when re-entering the U.S. The law also covers the trade in vintage instruments.
Nashville's George Gruhn is one of the world's top dealers of old guitars, banjos and other rare stringed instruments. "It's a nightmare," he says. "I can't help it if they used Brazilian rosewood on almost every guitar made prior to 1970. I'm not contributing to cutting down Brazilian rosewood today."
Gruhn acknowledges that the government has tried to create exemptions to cover vintage instruments. But he says they are rife with delays and to play it safe he's nearly eliminated the 40% of his business that used to deal with overseas buyers. "This is a new normal," says the EIA's Andrea Johnson. "And it takes getting used to."
Johnson defends the Lacey Act and the government's efforts to enforce it. "Nobody here wants this law to founder on unintended consequences," she says. "Because ultimately everybody understands that the intent here is to reduce illegal logging and send a signal to the markets that you've got to be asking questions and sourcing wood in a responsible way."
What constitutes that responsible way may only become clear when the government finally charges Gibson and the company gets the day in court it says it wants so badly.
You can listen to the report here...
http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011 ... department
...or read the transcript right here:
Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department
Last week federal marshals raided the Gibson Guitar Corporation in Tennessee. It wasn't the first time. The government appears to be preparing to charge the famous builder of instruments with trafficking in illegally obtained wood. It's a rare collision of music and environmental regulation.
In the hottest part of an August Tennessee day last Thursday, Gibson Guitar CEO Henry Juszkiewicz stood out in the full sun for 30 minutes and vented to the press about the events of the day before.
"We had a raid," he said, "with federal marshals that were armed, that came in, evacuated our factory, shut down production, sent our employees home and confiscated wood."
The raids at two Nashville facilities and one in Memphis recalled a similar raid in Nashville in November 2009, when agents seized a shipment of ebony from Madagascar. They were enforcing the Lacey Act, a century-old endangered species law that was amended in 2008 to include plants as well as animals. But Juszkiewicz says the government won't tell him exactly how — or if — his company has violated that law.
"We're in this really incredible situation. We have been implicated in wrongdoing and we haven't been charged with anything," he says. "Our business has been injured to millions of dollars. And we don't even have a court we can go to and say, 'Look, here's our position.'"
The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.
Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.
"Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."
Gibson vigorously denies these allegations, maintaining that all of its purchases from Madagascar have complied with U.S. and Malagasy law. A company attorney says Gibson has presented documents to support that claim and that the recent raid seized legally obtained wood from India. He adds that the company stopped importing wood from Madagascar in 2009.
Chris Martin, Chairman and CEO of the C.F. Martin Guitar Co. in Nazareth, Pa., says that when he first heard guitars built from Madagascar rosewood, he dreamed it might be the long-sought substitute for Brazilian rosewood, whose trade was banned in the 1990s due to over-harvest. Then the situation in Madagascar changed.
"There was a coup," Martin says. "What we heard was the international community has come to the conclusion that the coup created an illegitimate government. That's when we said, 'Okay, we can not buy any more of this wood.'"
And while some say the Lacey Act is burdensome, Martin supports it: "I think it's a wonderful thing. I think illegal logging is appalling. It should stop. And if this is what it takes unfortunately to stop unscrupulous operators, I'm all for it. It's tedious, but we're getting through it."
Others in the guitar world aren't so upbeat. Attorney Ronald Bienstock says the Gibson raids have aroused the guitar builders he represents because the Lacey Act is retroactive. He says they're worried they might be forced to prove the provenance of wood they acquired decades ago.
"There hasn't been that moment where people have quote tested the case. 'What is compliance? What is actual compliance? How have I complied?' We're lacking that."
He's even warned clients to be wary of traveling abroad with old guitars, because the law says owners can be asked to account for every wooden part of their guitars when re-entering the U.S. The law also covers the trade in vintage instruments.
Nashville's George Gruhn is one of the world's top dealers of old guitars, banjos and other rare stringed instruments. "It's a nightmare," he says. "I can't help it if they used Brazilian rosewood on almost every guitar made prior to 1970. I'm not contributing to cutting down Brazilian rosewood today."
Gruhn acknowledges that the government has tried to create exemptions to cover vintage instruments. But he says they are rife with delays and to play it safe he's nearly eliminated the 40% of his business that used to deal with overseas buyers. "This is a new normal," says the EIA's Andrea Johnson. "And it takes getting used to."
Johnson defends the Lacey Act and the government's efforts to enforce it. "Nobody here wants this law to founder on unintended consequences," she says. "Because ultimately everybody understands that the intent here is to reduce illegal logging and send a signal to the markets that you've got to be asking questions and sourcing wood in a responsible way."
What constitutes that responsible way may only become clear when the government finally charges Gibson and the company gets the day in court it says it wants so badly.
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by Peartree12249 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:23 am
JRNYMAN wrote:WOW... just Wow! If the Feds had a legitimate case and were being straight up and open about everything, then it would be fairly safe to assume they had reason to investigate the situation but when they raid an American icon like Gibson whose track record and reputation are like beacons not only in a business sense but in name recognition for the quality of its products, and do it so secretively, disclosing nothing, failing to charge them with a crime, confiscate property without a court order (which, since the agents were probably armed, constitutes armed robbery) and providing the company with any court documents nor a court where they can protest and/or plead their case, sends up all kinds of flags and implications of impropriety. AND IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME IT'S HAPPENED - TO THE SAME COMPANY!!!!! Gibson should have no problem finding an attorney who is very good at suing the federal gov't. especially given the bullshit surrounding this case.This is a travesty and a blatant abuse of power and I pray to God this works out in Gibson's favor and sends a message to the feds!!
They already have. The problem is that the government can stall and drag the cases out for years forcing the company to spend millions in attorney fees. Look at the lawsuits the native americans have brought against the federal government some have been pending for decades. No the only way to fight this is to shine a spotlight on what the government is doing and fight this in the court of public opinion.
Last edited by Peartree12249 on Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by JRNYMAN » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:25 am
Peartree12249 wrote:JRNYMAN wrote:WOW... just Wow! If the Feds had a legitimate case and were being straight up and open about everything, then it would be fairly safe to assume they had reason to investigate the situation but when they raid an American icon like Gibson whose track record and reputation are like beacons not only in a business sense but in name recognition for the quality of its products, and do it so secretively, disclosing nothing, failing to charge them with a crime, confiscate property without a court order (which, since the agents were probably armed, constitutes armed robbery) and providing the company with any court documents nor a court where they can protest and/or plead their case, sends up all kinds of flags and implications of impropriety. AND IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME IT'S HAPPENED - TO THE SAME COMPANY!!!!! Gibson should have no problem finding an attorney who is very good at suing the federal gov't. especially given the bullshit surrounding this case.This is a travesty and a blatant abuse of power and I pray to God this works out in Gibson's favor and sends a message to the feds!!
They already have. The problem is that the government can stall and drag the cases out for years forcing the company to spend millions in attorney fees. Look at some of the lawsuits the native americans have brought against the federal government some have been pending for decades.
Excellent point and even better analogy.
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by Peartree12249 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:15 am
Grammar, the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.
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by Seven Wishes2 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:54 am
I share the outrage over this incident. However, we're on a music board here and half of us are musicians or at least recovering ones.
My question is, if Gibson only made anal vibrators for men, would the lot of you be as upset as you are? I know I wouldn't give a rat's ass.
My question is, if Gibson only made anal vibrators for men, would the lot of you be as upset as you are? I know I wouldn't give a rat's ass.
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by Peartree12249 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:11 pm
Seven Wishes wrote:I share the outrage over this incident. However, we're on a music board here and half of us are musicians or at least recovering ones.
My question is, if Gibson only made anal vibrators for men, would the lot of you be as upset as you are? I know I wouldn't give a rat's ass.
They make anal vibrators out of rosewood and mahogany?
Grammar, the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.
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by steveo777 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:20 pm
Peartree12249 wrote:Seven Wishes wrote:I share the outrage over this incident. However, we're on a music board here and half of us are musicians or at least recovering ones.
My question is, if Gibson only made anal vibrators for men, would the lot of you be as upset as you are? I know I wouldn't give a rat's ass.
They make anal vibrators out of rosewood and mahogany?
Interested? I turned a dildo on the lathe in wood shop class, back in high school. I finished it real nice and gave it to a girlfriend.
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by Peartree12249 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:16 pm
steveo777 wrote:Peartree12249 wrote:Seven Wishes wrote:I share the outrage over this incident. However, we're on a music board here and half of us are musicians or at least recovering ones.
My question is, if Gibson only made anal vibrators for men, would the lot of you be as upset as you are? I know I wouldn't give a rat's ass.
They make anal vibrators out of rosewood and mahogany?
Interested? I turned a dildo on the lathe in wood shop class, back in high school. I finished it real nice and gave it to a girlfriend.
What a nice guy! Hope she didn't give you splinters when she used it on you.
Grammar, the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.
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by conversationpc » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:18 am
Peartree12249 wrote:steveo777 wrote:Peartree12249 wrote:Seven Wishes wrote:I share the outrage over this incident. However, we're on a music board here and half of us are musicians or at least recovering ones.
My question is, if Gibson only made anal vibrators for men, would the lot of you be as upset as you are? I know I wouldn't give a rat's ass.
They make anal vibrators out of rosewood and mahogany?
Interested? I turned a dildo on the lathe in wood shop class, back in high school. I finished it real nice and gave it to a girlfriend.
What a nice guy! Hope she didn't give you splinters when she used it on you.
My blog = Dave's Dominion
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by Behshad » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:33 am
Peartree12249 wrote:steveo777 wrote:Peartree12249 wrote:Seven Wishes wrote:I share the outrage over this incident. However, we're on a music board here and half of us are musicians or at least recovering ones.
My question is, if Gibson only made anal vibrators for men, would the lot of you be as upset as you are? I know I wouldn't give a rat's ass.
They make anal vibrators out of rosewood and mahogany?
Interested? I turned a dildo on the lathe in wood shop class, back in high school. I finished it real nice and gave it to a girlfriend.
What a nice guy! Hope she didn't give you splinters when she used it on you.
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by RocknRoll » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:25 am
Looks like the GOP is latching on to this issue. I didn't post the entire article since that is all old news, but this still seems questionable to me.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011 ... speech.php
Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) isn't done tweaking the White House over the President's address to a joint session on jobs tonight
Boehner's latest commentary over the Obama administration's economic policies will come in the form of a special guest invited to attend the speech and sit in the Speaker's box: the CEO Of Gibson Guitar Henry Juszkiewicz.
Republicans are portraying the company as the victim of abusive big government. On Aug. 24, the company's Nashville headquarters were raided by more than two dozen Department of Justice agents in combat gear and armed with automatic rifles. The agents had search warrants and seized several pallets of rare wood, electric files and guitars.
No charges have been filed against the company, but Justice Department apparently told
Juszkiewicz that the administration believes the company violated Indian export law and the 1900 Lacey Act, which prohibits the importation of materials that are illegal to export from the country of origin......
Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-TN), who represents Nashville, first invited the CEO to attend the speech as her guest before Boehner heard about it and seized on the opportunity to elevate the issue -- and thumb his nose at President Obama in a very high-profile way.
Blackburn has said she wants to hold up Gibson as the model of what is correct about free enterprise in Tennessee and America.
"Gibson Guitar is at the heart of this jobs debate, and is an example of exactly why President Obama has it wrong when it comes to getting our economy back on track," she said......
"Maybe if the President spent more time finding real solutions to empowering small-business owners and less time hindering businesses like Gibson, we'd see more new jobs being created," she said.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011 ... speech.php
Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) isn't done tweaking the White House over the President's address to a joint session on jobs tonight
Boehner's latest commentary over the Obama administration's economic policies will come in the form of a special guest invited to attend the speech and sit in the Speaker's box: the CEO Of Gibson Guitar Henry Juszkiewicz.
Republicans are portraying the company as the victim of abusive big government. On Aug. 24, the company's Nashville headquarters were raided by more than two dozen Department of Justice agents in combat gear and armed with automatic rifles. The agents had search warrants and seized several pallets of rare wood, electric files and guitars.
No charges have been filed against the company, but Justice Department apparently told
Juszkiewicz that the administration believes the company violated Indian export law and the 1900 Lacey Act, which prohibits the importation of materials that are illegal to export from the country of origin......
Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-TN), who represents Nashville, first invited the CEO to attend the speech as her guest before Boehner heard about it and seized on the opportunity to elevate the issue -- and thumb his nose at President Obama in a very high-profile way.
Blackburn has said she wants to hold up Gibson as the model of what is correct about free enterprise in Tennessee and America.
"Gibson Guitar is at the heart of this jobs debate, and is an example of exactly why President Obama has it wrong when it comes to getting our economy back on track," she said......
"Maybe if the President spent more time finding real solutions to empowering small-business owners and less time hindering businesses like Gibson, we'd see more new jobs being created," she said.
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