Religion & Morality

[Greg]

First of all, if morality comes from religion - and that's what the church teaches...wouldn't the converse be that non-believers are immoral?

It is classic logic:

If S then P. Not S, then not P

Secondly, and I've drawn this out in detail...If I came to you and told you I started a religion, and believed in the Purple Ant People of Agnotis...and every 2nd Tuesday of the month worshipped aluminum foil pyramids, and sacrificed Cicadas in honor of the Ant god, Pantok....wouldn't you called me simple-minded? Oh, and I know this is true because some homeless guy, standing on a milkcrate in Central Park said it was....and I have FAITH.

Actually, if S=10, and P=10, then S=P.

Secondly, I would say good for you if that is what brings you peace and makes you a better person. I don't waste my life sitting back and trying to judge people I don't know personally. I would probably pray for you and hope that someday you give your life to Christ, but who am I to judge? Just like, who are you to judge me?

[S2M]

First of all, if morality comes from religion - and that's what the church teaches...wouldn't the converse be that non-believers are immoral?

It is classic logic:

If S then P. Not S, then not P

Secondly, and I've drawn this out in detail...If I came to you and told you I started a religion, and believed in the Purple Ant People of Agnotis...and every 2nd Tuesday of the month worshipped aluminum foil pyramids, and sacrificed Cicadas in honor of the Ant god, Pantok....wouldn't you called me simple-minded? Oh, and I know this is true because some homeless guy, standing on a milkcrate in Central Park said it was....and I have FAITH.

Actually, if S=10, and P=10, then S=P.

Secondly, I would say good for you if that is what brings you peace and makes you a better person. I don't waste my life sitting back and trying to judge people I don't know personally. I would probably pray for you and hope that someday you give your life to Christ, but who am I to judge? Just like, who are you to judge me?

But that's just it. I shouldn't have to give my life to anyone. It is MY life. Sacrificing one's life for another devalues your life...that's why altruism is illogical.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

It is classic logic:

If S then P. Not S, then not P
.

LOL NO! Not true. Consider the following example

P- 1 If a person is greek (s) than he is crazy.(p)
p- 2 Charlie is not greek (s)
conclusion: Charlie is not crazy (p)

????

that is false arguement. Charlie might not be a crazy greek but could still be a complete Kool Aid drinking whack job -he could be fuckin crazy just not greek.

theres a hole in your logic. but dont let that detract from the mortal combat you guys are locked in over worshiping purple ants and who is an isnt getting 20 years in purgatory. !

[Rip Rokken]

Your posts don't upset me at all - they are just a bit abstract to me and I'm apparently not gleaning the point very clearly. Just tell me what you think, or what you believe.

Lets cut to what on the surface seems to be your reasonable and valid question, " Just tell me what you think, or what you believe"

This is what Pastors, Priests, Gurus, politicians or corporations and so on are trying to tell you, what they think and what they believe in effect what you should think and believe and you are not buying into it and rightly so. The question itself is loaded, so what to do ?

The more profound question is to ask yourself "who/what am I" as I said to you earlier "know thyself" no one can answer this question for "you" but it can be pointed to with words. Remember the word is not the thing, saying "fire" all day will not burn you because the word is not the thing, its at best a pointer. Ask yourself the deeper question and see what happens.

Master Splinter, to borrow a description from 1 Corinthians 13:1, your mystical insights are like sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal in my head. We seem to be struggling with basic semantics here. If you are not drinking, are you female by chance?



I'm interested in your opinions - not asking you to provide answers for my life. I am a seeker of truth, and constantly introspective, but I wouldn't be where I was today if I just relied on the knowledge and instructions of others. Doesn't stop me from educating myself on what others think, though. I find it interesting. A co-worker and I went out for sushi last night and I asked his opinions, too. Just listened, didn't counter. I crave that kind of conversation.

So what is it that you believe? Are you religious, new age, agnostic, atheist? Anything like that?

[S2M]

It is classic logic:

If S then P. Not S, then not P
.

LOL NO! Not true. Consider the following example

P- 1 If a person is greek (s) than he is crazy.(p)
p- 2 Charlie is not greek (s)
conclusion: Charlie is not crazy (p)

????

that is false arguement. Charlie might not be a crazy greek but could still be a complete Kool Aid drinking whack job -he could be fuckin crazy just not greek.

theres a hole in your logic. but dont let that detract from the mortal combat you guys are locked in over worshiping purple ants and who is an isnt getting 20 years in purgatory. !

That is actually airtight logic. The construction of the syllogism is sound. You basically just regurgitated my exact example...and it doesn't have work in reverse:

All trucks are vehicles
A car is a vehicle
Therefore a car is a truck

Inductive logic concerns itself with the construction of the argument, deductive logic deals with the actual truth of the premises and conclusion. Consider this:

Tom is a tree
All trees are made of cake
Therefore Tom is made of cake

In this argument, the logic is airtight - inductively, it is perfect....deductively it is a nightmare. Tom isn't a tree, and trees aren't made of cake....but in THIS argument, the conclusion follows from the given premises.

My assertion is:

Morality follows from religion
I'm not religious
Therefore I'm immoral

Again, inductively - perfect. But deductively, another nightmare. And the problem is connecting P2 to P1. Morality doesn't only have to follow from religion. Religion is but ONE source of morality.

[conversationpc]

Morality follows from religion
I'm not religious
Therefore I'm immoral

Not really...Christians believe even those who don't follow Christ can be and are moral, for the most part.

[Greg]

But that's just it. I shouldn't have to give my life to anyone. It is MY life. Sacrificing one's life for another devalues your life...that's why altruism is illogical.

Of course it's your life. That's why it's your choice to follow Christ or not to. So, what's the big deal?

[majik]

Your posts don't upset me at all - they are just a bit abstract to me and I'm apparently not gleaning the point very clearly. Just tell me what you think, or what you believe.

Lets cut to what on the surface seems to be your reasonable and valid question, " Just tell me what you think, or what you believe"

This is what Pastors, Priests, Gurus, politicians or corporations and so on are trying to tell you, what they think and what they believe in effect what you should think and believe and you are not buying into it and rightly so. The question itself is loaded, so what to do ?

The more profound question is to ask yourself "who/what am I" as I said to you earlier "know thyself" no one can answer this question for "you" but it can be pointed to with words. Remember the word is not the thing, saying "fire" all day will not burn you because the word is not the thing, its at best a pointer. Ask yourself the deeper question and see what happens.

Master Splinter, to borrow a description from 1 Corinthians 13:1, your mystical insights are like sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal in my head. We seem to be struggling with basic semantics here. If you are not drinking, are you female by chance?



I'm interested in your opinions - not asking you to provide answers for my life. I am a seeker of truth, and constantly introspective, but I wouldn't be where I was today if I just relied on the knowledge and instructions of others. Doesn't stop me from educating myself on what others think, though. I find it interesting. A co-worker and I went out for sushi last night and I asked his opinions, too. Just listened, didn't counter. I crave that kind of conversation.

So what is it that you believe? Are you religious, new age, agnostic, atheist? Anything like that?

Master Splinter, lol, female, religious, new age, agnostic, atheist, are all labels....... I am not a label or any combination of labels.
The mystical insights like sounding brass, or clanging symbols in your head are all the concepts you believe and are not the Truth that you say you are seeking, they are noise. I am not trying to provide answers for your life, Life Is, yes.

You used the word "I" about 9 times above, this "I" that you intimately know throughout a life time of experience, to what does "I" refer to. Can you hold on to any experience, they come and then go, yet "I" remains, remains the same.

My question is what are you calling I. Take a look, introspect, if you are indeed seeking truth. What is "I"..........

[Rip Rokken]

Master Splinter, lol, female, religious, new age, agnostic, atheist, are all labels....... I am not a label or any combination of labels.
The mystical insights like sounding brass, or clanging symbols in your head are all the concepts you believe and are not the Truth that you say you are seeking, they are noise. I am not trying to provide answers for your life, Life Is, yes.

You used the word "I" about 9 times above, this "I" that you intimately know throughout a life time of experience, to what does "I" refer to. Can you hold on to any experience, they come and then go, yet "I" remains, remains the same.

My question is what are you calling I. Take a look, introspect, if you are indeed seeking truth. What is "I"..........

What is I? Or is it? Maybe I was, but will be... or maybe it never wasn't. Look deep inside for the answer.

[steveo777]

Pretty good lyrics in that Brooks & Dunn song, Believe.

I can't quote the book
The chapter or the verse
You can't tell me it all ends
In a slow ride in a hearse
You know I'm more and more convinced
The longer that i live
Yeah, this can't be
No, this can't be
No, this can't be all there is

[majik]

Master Splinter, lol, female, religious, new age, agnostic, atheist, are all labels....... I am not a label or any combination of labels.
The mystical insights like sounding brass, or clanging symbols in your head are all the concepts you believe and are not the Truth that you say you are seeking, they are noise. I am not trying to provide answers for your life, Life Is, yes.

You used the word "I" about 9 times above, this "I" that you intimately know throughout a life time of experience, to what does "I" refer to. Can you hold on to any experience, they come and then go, yet "I" remains, remains the same.

My question is what are you calling I. Take a look, introspect, if you are indeed seeking truth. What is "I"..........

What is I? Or is it? Maybe I was, but will be... or maybe it never wasn't. Look deep inside for the answer.

Look deep inside where ? deep inside what ?

[majik]

Pretty good lyrics in that Brooks & Dunn song, Believe.

I can't quote the book
The chapter or the verse
You can't tell me it all ends
In a slow ride in a hearse
You know I'm more and more convinced
The longer that i live
Yeah, this can't be
No, this can't be
No, this can't be all there is

This is all there IS, "This" is it, and what "This" is cannot be said but it can be Known,.... Here It Is, "This" is Wholeness, its not going anywhere, where could Wholeness go ?
when THIS IS ALL THERE IS.

Can this ever be separated from ITSELF.
"You" and "This" are not two but One.
ONE THIS!

[S2M]

Reason integrates man’s perceptions by means of forming abstractions or conceptions, thus raising man’s knowledge from the perceptual level, which he shares with animals, to the conceptual level, which he alone can reach. The method which reason employs in this process is logic—and logic is the art of non-contradictory identification. - Ayn Rand

[Rip Rokken]

Master Splinter, lol, female, religious, new age, agnostic, atheist, are all labels....... I am not a label or any combination of labels.
The mystical insights like sounding brass, or clanging symbols in your head are all the concepts you believe and are not the Truth that you say you are seeking, they are noise. I am not trying to provide answers for your life, Life Is, yes.

You used the word "I" about 9 times above, this "I" that you intimately know throughout a life time of experience, to what does "I" refer to. Can you hold on to any experience, they come and then go, yet "I" remains, remains the same.

My question is what are you calling I. Take a look, introspect, if you are indeed seeking truth. What is "I"..........

What is I? Or is it? Maybe I was, but will be... or maybe it never wasn't. Look deep inside for the answer.

Look deep inside where ? deep inside what ?

LOL, saw the first draft of your reply last night before it was edited, hahahahahahaha. Was just trying to reach you in your own dialect. Rokken-ness.

[majik]

Master Splinter, lol, female, religious, new age, agnostic, atheist, are all labels....... I am not a label or any combination of labels.
The mystical insights like sounding brass, or clanging symbols in your head are all the concepts you believe and are not the Truth that you say you are seeking, they are noise. I am not trying to provide answers for your life, Life Is, yes.

You used the word "I" about 9 times above, this "I" that you intimately know throughout a life time of experience, to what does "I" refer to. Can you hold on to any experience, they come and then go, yet "I" remains, remains the same.

My question is what are you calling I. Take a look, introspect, if you are indeed seeking truth. What is "I"..........

What is I? Or is it? Maybe I was, but will be... or maybe it never wasn't. Look deep inside for the answer.

Look deep inside where ? deep inside what ?

LOL, saw the first draft of your reply last night before it was edited, hahahahahahaha. Was just trying to reach you in your own dialect. Rokken-ness.

Whats wrong with editing ? but hey if your too scarred to take up the challenge one excuse is as good as another, editing wtf lol..

[Rip Rokken]

Master Splinter, lol, female, religious, new age, agnostic, atheist, are all labels....... I am not a label or any combination of labels.
The mystical insights like sounding brass, or clanging symbols in your head are all the concepts you believe and are not the Truth that you say you are seeking, they are noise. I am not trying to provide answers for your life, Life Is, yes.

You used the word "I" about 9 times above, this "I" that you intimately know throughout a life time of experience, to what does "I" refer to. Can you hold on to any experience, they come and then go, yet "I" remains, remains the same.

My question is what are you calling I. Take a look, introspect, if you are indeed seeking truth. What is "I"..........

What is I? Or is it? Maybe I was, but will be... or maybe it never wasn't. Look deep inside for the answer.

Look deep inside where ? deep inside what ?

LOL, saw the first draft of your reply last night before it was edited, hahahahahahaha. Was just trying to reach you in your own dialect. Rokken-ness.

Whats wrong with editing ? but hey if your too scarred to take up the challenge one excuse is as good as another, editing wtf lol..

Nothing wrong with editing... it's often done when one regrets their previous reply, so I totally understand that.

As to your challenge, I haven't heard one yet. You are asking me to look inside myself and figure out what "I" is. I do that everyday, and the closest answer I can give to your question is that I am a self-reliant, sentient creature who is more responsible for my life experience than any religionist can admit.

Coincidentally, I just had this conversation with my mom this morning. I told her that my life began to dramatically improve once I dropped prayer, then dropped faith completely. All around, things are better than ever now for me. And when things got rough a few months ago, instead of waiting on any word or sign from God, I took immediate charge and it corrected problems that had gone on for years while beseeching God for help. So I asked her how can that be explained? If God is to be credited for every good thing in my life, then why do they improve across the board once I give him up completely? Her response was, "Satan can appear like an angel of light. He can be extremely convincing." So I asked her to clarify, was she giving Satan credit for all the current good in my life? She said "yes". Wow... well, I'll think I'll keep his number around just in case.

[majik]

Master Splinter, lol, female, religious, new age, agnostic, atheist, are all labels....... I am not a label or any combination of labels.
The mystical insights like sounding brass, or clanging symbols in your head are all the concepts you believe and are not the Truth that you say you are seeking, they are noise. I am not trying to provide answers for your life, Life Is, yes.

You used the word "I" about 9 times above, this "I" that you intimately know throughout a life time of experience, to what does "I" refer to. Can you hold on to any experience, they come and then go, yet "I" remains, remains the same.

My question is what are you calling I. Take a look, introspect, if you are indeed seeking truth. What is "I"..........

What is I? Or is it? Maybe I was, but will be... or maybe it never wasn't. Look deep inside for the answer.

Look deep inside where ? deep inside what ?

LOL, saw the first draft of your reply last night before it was edited, hahahahahahaha. Was just trying to reach you in your own dialect. Rokken-ness.

Whats wrong with editing ? but hey if your too scarred to take up the challenge one excuse is as good as another, editing wtf lol..

Nothing wrong with editing... it's often done when one regrets their previous reply, so I totally understand that.

As to your challenge, I haven't heard one yet. You are asking me to look inside myself and figure out what "I" is. I do that everyday, and the closest answer I can give to your question is that I am a self-reliant, sentient creature who is more responsible for my life experience than any religionist can admit.

Coincidentally, I just had this conversation with my mom this morning. I told her that my life began to dramatically improve once I dropped prayer, then dropped faith completely. All around, things are better than ever now for me. And when things got rough a few months ago, instead of waiting on any word or sign from God, I took immediate charge and it corrected problems that had gone on for years while beseeching God for help. So I asked her how can that be explained? If God is to be credited for every good thing in my life, then why do they improve across the board once I give him up completely? Her response was, "Satan can appear like an angel of light. He can be extremely convincing." So I asked her to clarify, was she giving Satan credit for all the current good in my life? She said "yes". Wow... well, I'll think I'll keep his number around just in case.

Thanks for your very honest reply I'm glad things have improved for you, life is hard at times. I'll clarify a few things for you if you like. I'm not religious or new age and I'm not trying to push my beliefs here, I don't have any belief at all. It may seem that I'm a bit vague and I know that its difficult to get a handle on what I say. It is a challenge to get to what "I" is even if you think its not, because the mind will throw up all these ideas of what it is due to conditioning and subtle held beliefs which bubble up. Its mind that asks the question and its mind that also answers.
My experience is that everything spontaneously happens whether I want it to or not, breathing happens, eating happens, its just what is, problems happen and even though it seems I sort them out that too spontaneously happens, then mind tries to take credit for doing it after the event, spontaneously. Nothing wrong with any of it, its not God or Satan they are ideas that can only ever appear as thought. Letting go of these ideas is freeing as you have also discovered but it is only the start of seeing what mind is and its concepts.

[Rip Rokken]

I'll clarify a few things for you if you like. I'm not religious or new age and I'm not trying to push my beliefs here, I don't have any belief at all. It may seem that I'm a bit vague and I know that its difficult to get a handle on what I say. It is a challenge to get to what "I" is even if you think its not, because the mind will throw up all these ideas of what it is due to conditioning and subtle held beliefs which bubble up. Its mind that asks the question and its mind that also answers.
My experience is that everything spontaneously happens whether I want it to or not, breathing happens, eating happens, its just what is, problems happen and even though it seems I sort them out that too spontaneously happens, then mind tries to take credit for doing it after the event, spontaneously. Nothing wrong with any of it, its not God or Satan they are ideas that can only ever appear as thought. Letting go of these ideas is freeing as you have also discovered but it is only the start of seeing what mind is and its concepts.

Well said - I can completely relate to that.

[Rip Rokken]

New York Mayor Bloomberg Bans Religion at 9/11 Ceremony

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/bloombe ... /id/408556

[majik]

I'll clarify a few things for you if you like. I'm not religious or new age and I'm not trying to push my beliefs here, I don't have any belief at all. It may seem that I'm a bit vague and I know that its difficult to get a handle on what I say. It is a challenge to get to what "I" is even if you think its not, because the mind will throw up all these ideas of what it is due to conditioning and subtle held beliefs which bubble up. Its mind that asks the question and its mind that also answers.
My experience is that everything spontaneously happens whether I want it to or not, breathing happens, eating happens, its just what is, problems happen and even though it seems I sort them out that too spontaneously happens, then mind tries to take credit for doing it after the event, spontaneously. Nothing wrong with any of it, its not God or Satan they are ideas that can only ever appear as thought. Letting go of these ideas is freeing as you have also discovered but it is only the start of seeing what mind is and its concepts.

Well said - I can completely relate to that.

[Rip Rokken]

I'll clarify a few things for you if you like. I'm not religious or new age and I'm not trying to push my beliefs here, I don't have any belief at all. It may seem that I'm a bit vague and I know that its difficult to get a handle on what I say. It is a challenge to get to what "I" is even if you think its not, because the mind will throw up all these ideas of what it is due to conditioning and subtle held beliefs which bubble up. Its mind that asks the question and its mind that also answers.
My experience is that everything spontaneously happens whether I want it to or not, breathing happens, eating happens, its just what is, problems happen and even though it seems I sort them out that too spontaneously happens, then mind tries to take credit for doing it after the event, spontaneously. Nothing wrong with any of it, its not God or Satan they are ideas that can only ever appear as thought. Letting go of these ideas is freeing as you have also discovered but it is only the start of seeing what mind is and its concepts.

Well said - I can completely relate to that.

I was listening to Sam Harris when I was getting ready this morning, and I think he was talking about something similar - what is the "I", or sense of self we experience. A lot of our personal thoughts on that are illusory, an example being the feeling that we are like this little person in our head viewing life on a screen in front of us via our vision (Harris didn't use that example - I remember it from somewhere else).

[majik]

I'll clarify a few things for you if you like. I'm not religious or new age and I'm not trying to push my beliefs here, I don't have any belief at all. It may seem that I'm a bit vague and I know that its difficult to get a handle on what I say. It is a challenge to get to what "I" is even if you think its not, because the mind will throw up all these ideas of what it is due to conditioning and subtle held beliefs which bubble up. Its mind that asks the question and its mind that also answers.
My experience is that everything spontaneously happens whether I want it to or not, breathing happens, eating happens, its just what is, problems happen and even though it seems I sort them out that too spontaneously happens, then mind tries to take credit for doing it after the event, spontaneously. Nothing wrong with any of it, its not God or Satan they are ideas that can only ever appear as thought. Letting go of these ideas is freeing as you have also discovered but it is only the start of seeing what mind is and its concepts.

Well said - I can completely relate to that.

I was listening to Sam Harris when I was getting ready this morning, and I think he was talking about something similar - what is the "I", or sense of self we experience. A lot of our personal thoughts on that are illusory, an example being the feeling that we are like this little person in our head viewing life on a screen in front of us via our vision (Harris didn't use that example - I remember it from somewhere else).

I can't comment on Sam Harris I've never heard of him.

You said " A lot of our personal thoughts on that are illusory"

Isn't "I" another one of those illusory thoughts ! if we look for what "I" refers too it can be discovered to be only appearing as a thought, the thought "I". There is no entity that is called "I" as we have been led to believe, "I" is not personal but we " think" it is. When the thought "I" is not present do we disappear also ? obviously no, this can be known as Fact just notice its coming and going while what you are remains.

Who has a problem...... "I" do,
"I" when it is "believed" to be what I am is a sense of limitation, where there is no limitation, as you said.... "an example being the feeling that we are like this little person in our head viewing life on a screen in front of us via our vision"..... There is no entity running around in the head, this is another thought attached to "I" and limitation is sensed.

Noticing that this is happening and identification as "I" and "thought" can still happen but is seen through for what it is ...... just thought happening.

[Duncan]

This is probably the most eloquent clip I've seen of someone who reflects my views of religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ6ruM7Muo8

[conversationpc]

New York Mayor Bloomberg Bans Religion at 9/11 Ceremony

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/bloombe ... /id/408556

Whether or not one's an atheist or agnostic, I can't imagine anyone supporting this.

[AR]

I grew up Catholic. While no longer a proponent of organized religion personally I'm not against it either. Whatever floats your boat.

Striking the word "God" out of longstanding recitals, music or anything else is ridiculous.

I WANT to offend those who don't like to hear it. Let the minority cover their ears and fucking deal with it.

Whether you believe in God or not, these rituals are so long standing and any fucktard that's offended by hearing the word "God" should just move on and have better things to do. Plenty of other "wrongs" that need to be righted.

[Duncan]

The Mayor is correct. This was an attack bourne out of religion.

[conversationpc]

The Mayor is correct. This was an attack bourne out of religion.

So that precludes religious people who are peaceful, which makes up the vast majority of all religions?

[Duncan]

Yes. It is all poisonous whether by violence or stealth. Did you watch the clip I posted to the end?

[S2M]

The Mayor is correct. This was an attack bourne out of religion.

So that precludes religious people who are peaceful, which makes up the vast majority of all religions?

Dave, I'll say it again...Religion is intrinsically "evil". There may be good people who are religious, but the "religion" aspect is a vehicle for conditioning and controlling people. Keeping them 'in line', and addicted to the mystical. Making followers subservient to the 'chosen' for answers and guidance.

[conversationpc]

The Mayor is correct. This was an attack bourne out of religion.

So that precludes religious people who are peaceful, which makes up the vast majority of all religions?

Dave, I'll say it again...Religion is intrinsically "evil". There may be good people who are religious, but the "religion" aspect is a vehicle for conditioning and controlling people. Keeping them 'in line', and addicted to the mystical. Making followers subservient to the 'chosen' for answers and guidance.

One could say the same about atheism considering its own political history over the last 100+ years or so.