F-16 pilots planned to ram Flight 93

[Don]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44459345/ns ... ars_later/

When the pilots of the 121st Fighter Squadron of the D.C. Air National Guard got the order to intercept Flight 93, the hijacked jet speeding toward the nation's capital, they figured there was a decent chance they would not come back alive.

That's because the F-16 jets they were rushing to get airborne were largely unarmed, recalls one of the pilots, then-Lt. Heather Penney, leaving them one option to take out the wayward plane: a kamikaze mission.

"We wouldn’t be shooting it down. We would be ramming the aircraft, because we didn’t have weapons on board to be able to shoot the airplane down," Penney told C-SPAN.

In the days before Sept. 11, there were no armed aircraft standing guard in Washington, D.C., ready to scramble at the first sign of trouble.

And with a Boeing 757 aircraft speeding in the direction of Washington, D.C., Penney and her commanding officer, Col. Marc Sasseville, couldn't wait the dozens of minutes it was going to take to properly arm their respective jets.

"It was decided that Sass and I would take off first, even though we knew we would end up having to take off before our aircraft were armed," Penney, among the first generation of American female fighter pilots, said to C-SPAN.

Penney said each jet had 105 lead-nosed bullets on board, but little more.

"As we were putting on our flight gear … Sass looked at me and said, 'I'll ram the cockpit.' And I had made the decision that I would take the tail off the aircraft," Penney recalled.

Both pilots thought about whether they would have enough time to eject before impact.

"I was hoping to do both at the same time," Sasseville told the Washington Post. "It probably wasn’t going to work, but that’s what I was hoping."

Penney, a rookie fight pilot, worried about missing her target.

"You only got one chance. You don’t want to eject and then miss. You’ve got to be able to stick with it the whole way," she said.

The pilots chose their impact spots in order to minimize the debris field on the ground. A plane with no nose and no tail would likely fall straight out of the sky, its forward momentum halted, Penney said.

“The people on Flight 93 were heroes, but they were going to die no matter what," she said. "My concern was how do I minimize collateral damage on the ground."

As it turned out, Sasseville and Penney never intercepted Flight 93. The passengers of that doomed plane made sure they didn't have to.

[ebake02]

Only the US would scramble fighters without ammo.

[StevePerryHair]

"The pilots chose their impact spots in order to minimize the debris field on the ground. A plane with no nose and no tail would likely fall straight out of the sky, its forward momentum halted, Penney said."

Doesn't this defy physics?

[RPM]

no, makes sense, all forward motion, other than propulsion at moment of impact would be halted,
resulting in the fastest way to bring it straight down. Very brave pro's we have !

[conversationpc]

Two unbelievable things here:

1 - We would not have fighter jets ARMED AND READY for an event like this, even pre-9/11.
2 - That we would let anyone know even after the fact that we didn't have jets armed and ready.

[StevePerryHair]

no, makes sense, all forward motion, other than propulsion at moment of impact would be halted,
resulting in the fastest way to bring it straight down. Very brave pro's we have !

They make it sound like it would just fall out of the sky. It would slow down, but would still have forward momentum and come down at at angle. Do you know how fast planes fly? That doesn't sound right at all.

[Rick]

Two unbelievable things here:

1 - We would not have fighter jets ARMED AND READY for an event like this, even pre-9/11.
2 - That we would let anyone know even after the fact that we didn't have jets armed and ready.

I think they only admitted that they weren't armed and ready before 9/11. I didn't see where it said it was still that way. But I agree that it's unbelievable that they didn't have something armed and ready, even then.

[conversationpc]

Two unbelievable things here:

1 - We would not have fighter jets ARMED AND READY for an event like this, even pre-9/11.
2 - That we would let anyone know even after the fact that we didn't have jets armed and ready.

I think they only admitted that they weren't armed and ready before 9/11. I didn't see where it said it was still that way. But I agree that it's unbelievable that they didn't have something armed and ready, even then.

Yeah, I know this was BEFORE 9/11 but it shouldn't even really matter. I mean, what's a fighter jet for if not for FIGHTING?

[Melissa]

My father worked on F-16's, as well as B-52's, for years and years in the A.F., they have pretty good reasons why they don't just routinely keep those things loaded down with the thousands of pounds of missiles, rockets, AND bombs they are capable of carrying. But a message board community must know more about these fighters and bombers than the A.F. does.

Not to mention the fact that people who aren't used to military aircraft over their heads (I grew up with them, was a part of life!) bitch and complain they are too "dangerous" to do things like fly overs at sporting events, etc. And active duty military should be able to carry firearms on themselves at all times, but no, people are "scared" and bitch about that too, so then you get the Fort Hood incident.

Easy to blast the U.S. military, yet they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they HAD been fully loaded and shot any of those planes down, they'd be monsters for killing all the innocents onboard too right? They'd never be right in the eyes of civilians who have no clue no matter WHAT they do.

[Behshad]

My father worked on F-16's, as well as B-52's, for years and years in the A.F., they have pretty good reasons why they don't just routinely keep those things loaded down with the thousands of pounds of missiles, rockets, AND bombs they are capable of carrying. But a message board community must know more about these fighters and bombers than the A.F. does.

Not to mention the fact that people who aren't used to military aircraft over their heads (I grew up with them, was a part of life!) bitch and complain they are too "dangerous" to do things like fly overs at sporting events, etc. And active duty military should be able to carry firearms on themselves at all times, but no, people are "scared" and bitch about that too, so then you get the Fort Hood incident.

Easy to blast the U.S. military, yet they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they HAD been fully loaded and shot any of those planes down, they'd be monsters for killing all the innocents onboard too right? They'd never be right in the eyes of civilians who have no clue no matter WHAT they do.

People discussing this subject just like any other subject does not mean that they know more than AF. Its our way of speculating things. It's about people wondering WHY a FIGHTER jet having less ammo than a kid with a slingshot.
Luckily we have people like you who've been around fighter jets all their lives who can educate us

Ten years has gone and people still believe that the heroic actions of those onboard took this plane down. Even Rumsfeld slipped out what really happen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNuosBnlw5s&sns=em


They did what they had to do , nothing to be ashamed of.

[Melissa]

So glad you're always around with something to say to whatever I say B, yet no comment from you on the Muslim stuff in the other 9/11 thread.

Not educating anyone, just find it ridiculous for any of us to think we know what's best for how any of this was handled that day.

[Behshad]

So glad you're always around with something to say to whatever I say B, yet no comment from you on the Muslim stuff in the other 9/11 thread.

Not educating anyone, just find it ridiculous for any of us to think we know what's best for how any of this was handled that day.

So glad you take compliments as a negative things. yep I'm only STALKING you
Why should I discuss anything about 9/11 and the Muslims , because of my heritage ?!
Everyone here knows that I'm not a Muslim, so what's your point really ?! You think I should only stick to subjects that I grew up around ?! In the future I will check with you first before I post to make sure I'm in the right thread.

[Melissa]

So glad you're always around with something to say to whatever I say B, yet no comment from you on the Muslim stuff in the other 9/11 thread.

Not educating anyone, just find it ridiculous for any of us to think we know what's best for how any of this was handled that day.

So glad you take compliments as a negative things. yep I'm only STALKING you
Why should I discuss anything about 9/11 and the Muslims , because of my heritage ?!
Everyone here knows that I'm not a Muslim, so what's your point really ?! You think I should only stick to subjects that I grew up around ?! In the future I will check with you first before I post to make sure I'm in the right thread.

Your "so glad you're here to educate us" sounds like a smart ass comment, but that's the downfall of a message board. Oh well. And you were all over my case when I had the opinion a mosque shouldn't be built at ground zero as if I made horrid remarks about Muslims, which I did NOT, yet the horrid remarks that ARE made about them here you don't go after. Just confusing I guess, but you also KNOW I'm a doormat and not a fighter, so I guess it's easy.

[Behshad]

So glad you're always around with something to say to whatever I say B, yet no comment from you on the Muslim stuff in the other 9/11 thread.

Not educating anyone, just find it ridiculous for any of us to think we know what's best for how any of this was handled that day.

So glad you take compliments as a negative things. yep I'm only STALKING you
Why should I discuss anything about 9/11 and the Muslims , because of my heritage ?!
Everyone here knows that I'm not a Muslim, so what's your point really ?! You think I should only stick to subjects that I grew up around ?! In the future I will check with you first before I post to make sure I'm in the right thread.

Your "so glad you're here to educate us" sounds like a smart ass comment, but that's the downfall of a message board. Oh well. And you were all over my case when I had the opinion a mosque shouldn't be built at ground zero as if I made horrid remarks about Muslims, which I did NOT, yet the horrid remarks that ARE made about them here you don't go after. Just confusing I guess, but you also KNOW I'm a doormat and not a fighter, so I guess it's easy.

I'm not here to defend Muslims. Specially not those who attacked us. The mosque thing was about the freedom of people of this country regardless of their religion , that's what I was defending , people's rights!
And I did post in the other thread as instructed , master

And I like to fight against fighters not doormats like Steveo , so you're a fighter in my book. With ammo !

[Melissa]

I'm not here to defend Muslims. Specially not those who attacked us. The mosque thing was about the freedom of people of this country regardless of their religion , that's what I was defending , people's rights!
And I did post in the other thread as instructed , master

And I like to fight against fighters not doormats like Steveo , so you're a fighter in my book. With ammo !

Right, and all I did was defend the rights of the victims' families to keep a ground sacred that contained their loved ones pulverized ashes. I didn't instruct you to do anything, or accuse you of anything either, simply made the comment that I'm glad you're around to make sure I'm set straight. What's next for me, hot sauce?

And no, I'm not a fighter. I wish!

[Behshad]

I'm not here to defend Muslims. Specially not those who attacked us. The mosque thing was about the freedom of people of this country regardless of their religion , that's what I was defending , people's rights!
And I did post in the other thread as instructed , master

And I like to fight against fighters not doormats like Steveo , so you're a fighter in my book. With ammo !

Right, and all I did was defend the rights of the victims' families to keep a ground sacred that contained their loved ones pulverized ashes. I didn't instruct you to do anything, or accuse you of anything either, simply made the comment that I'm glad you're around to make sure I'm set straight. What's next for me, hot sauce?

And no, I'm not a fighter. I wish!

The ground is sacred , regardless of what building is around it. If anything why not close down the souvenir & T-shirt shop a block away from ground zero , where they make a profit of other people's loss ?!

And no hot sauce for you. You'd like it too much

[Melissa]

The ground is sacred , regardless of what building is around it. If anything why not close down the souvenir & T-shirt shop a block away from ground zero , where they make a profit of other people's loss ?!

And no hot sauce for you. You'd like it too much

And I agreed nothing should be built there at all. And I never agreed the people in the souvenir shops should do that, but that's called capitalism and is part of this free country. The decent thing to do would be to not sell items like that, just like the decent thing to do would be to not build on what families consider sacred ground, and not fight to have it done "just because we can" like they argued.

[RossValoryRocks]

Please folks. As 9-11 brought us together 10 years ago, this day should bring us together again.

What happened or didn't happen to flight 93 is a matter of conjecture and cannot be proven either way.

For a day at least please lay aside your animosity.

[DrFU]

no, makes sense, all forward motion, other than propulsion at moment of impact would be halted,
resulting in the fastest way to bring it straight down. Very brave pro's we have !

They make it sound like it would just fall out of the sky. It would slow down, but would still have forward momentum and come down at at angle. Do you know how fast planes fly? That doesn't sound right at all.

My dad (who flew for AA for 30 years) used to joke that airliners glided like "leaded manhole covers" when they lost power.


That was the first thing I thought of when I heard about Captain Sully landing his in the Hudson.

[Melissa]

My dad (who flew for AA for 30 years) used to joke that airliners glided like "leaded manhole covers" when they lost power.

That was the first thing I thought of when I heard about Captain Sully landing his in the Hudson.

Yeah what that guy did to land that one on the river was amazing!

And yeah the airliner wouldn't have come straight down, but it would have come down. And the F-16 this pilot was flying was armed, just not fully loaded with the approximate 5000# it's capable of carrying. The guns it was carrying would have done plenty of enough damage to bring it down.

[Saint John]

Ten years has gone and people still believe that the heroic actions of those onboard took this plane down. Even Rumsfeld slipped out what really happen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNuosBnlw5s&sns=em


They did what they had to do , nothing to be ashamed of.

Factually, this is not true. It happened just as they said it happened. There were many, many eyewitnesses that actually, get this, saw the plane crash! Add to that the phone calls made from those on the plane telling what they were going to do and you have a pretty disturbing picture of what happened. The completely brainless idea that "it was shot down" has proven about as credible as the "windowless" planes that crashed into the Twin Towers. Or, better yet, the completely warped and Terry Schiavo-like brain dead conclusion that there were explosives in the Twin Towers. Here are some of the eyewitness accounts for flight 93, and they all seem to corroborate:


Eyewitnesses

Here are parts of several articles giving details and eyewitness accounts:

A few miles north of Lambertsville, yard man Terry Butler, 40, was toiling away at Stoystown Auto Wreckers.

He thought it was odd that a plane was in the area. He'd heard that all air traffic nationwide had been halted after the World Trade Center disaster about an hour earlier.

"It dropped out of the clouds," too low for a commercial flight, Butler said. The plane rose slightly, trying to gain altitude, then "it just went flip to the right and then straight down."

He radioed back to his office, telling coworkers Homer Barron, 49, and Jeff Phillips, 30, what he had seen.

"I told them a plane crashed. At first they didn't believe it, because you know, we do joke around." Then Barron saw smoke and called 911.

… Barron and Phillips drove to the crash scene and found a smoky hole in the ground. A few firefighters had already begun pouring water onto the debris.

"It didn't look like a plane crash because there was nothing that looked like a plane," Barron said.

"There was one part of a seat burning up there," Phillips said. "That was something you could recognize."

"I never seen anything like it," Barron said. "Just like a big pile of charcoal."

Lee Purbaugh, 32, working just his second day at Rollock Inc., a scrap yard next to the reclaimed strip-mine land, looked up from operating a burning torch to see the jetliner just 40 feet above him. "I couldn't believe this," Purbaugh said.

"I heard it for 10 or 15 seconds and it sounded like it was going full bore," said Tim Lensbouer, 35, Purbaugh's coworker.

The ground shook and the air thundered as the jetliner slammed into the ground about 300 yards away, Purbaugh said.

A mushroom of flame rose 200 feet and disappeared. Then there was a curtain of black smoke and finally a trail of fire as pieces of the fuselage shot hundreds of yards into the woods.

"My instinct was to run toward it, to try to help" said Nina Lensbouer, Tim's Lensbouer's wife and a former volunteer firefighter. "But I got there and there was nothing, nothing there but charcoal. Instantly, it was charcoal."
…
Charles Sturtz, 53, who lives just over the hillside from the crash site, said a fireball 200 feet high shot up over the hill. He got to the crash scene even before the firefighters.

"The biggest pieces you could find were probably four feet [long]. Most of the pieces you could put into a shopping bag, and there were clothes hanging from the trees."

Ten miles away, at a warehouse near Berlin, employee Don Miller and co-workers felt their building shake. (7)
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"It came in low over the trees and started wobbling," said Tim Thornsberg, a resident of Somerset County, who was working near an old strip mine when he saw the plane.

"Then it just rolled over and was flying upside down for a few seconds ... and then it kind of stalled and did a nose dive over the trees. It was just unreal to see something like that."
…
Charles Sturtz, who lives about a half-mile from the crash site, said he saw the plane in the air for a few seconds, and saw no smoke, heard no explosions before the crash and saw no other planes in the sky.

The plane was heading southeast he said, and had its engines running. "It was really roaring, you know. Like it was trying to go someplace, I guess, " the 53-year-old carpenter said. (6)
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One eyewitness to the Pennsylvania crash, Linda Shepley, told television station KDKA in Pittsburgh that she heard a loud bang and saw the plane bank to the side before crashing. … (3)
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Kelly Leverknight was watching news of the attacks on New York and Washington when she heard the plane.

It sounded like it was flying low above her home in rural Pennsylvania, moving from west to east. It was an odd enough sound that she stepped outside to have a look.

"I heard the plane going over and I went out the front door and I saw the plane going down," said Leverknight, 36. "It was headed toward the school, which panicked me, because all three of my kids were there.

"Then you heard the explosion and felt the blast and saw the fire and smoke." Leverknight and dozens of her neighbors raced to the Shanksville-Stonycreek School where they found their children safe.
…

Witnesses said they thought the wings of the Boeing 757 were wagging from side to side as it plunged toward the earth. …

"When it decided to drop, it dropped all of a sudden, like a stone," said Tom Fritz, 63. Fritz was sitting on his porch on Lambertsville Road, about a quarter mile from the crash site, when he heard a sound that "wasn't quite right" and looked up in the sky.

"It was sort of whistling," he said. "It was going so fast that you couldn't even make out what color it was."
…
Terry Butler works at Stoystown Auto Wreckers, which is in the flight path of the doomed plane. Butler was pulling a radiator from a 1992 Dodge Caravan when he heard the plane's engines.

He was listening to the news and was surprised because he had heard that all flights nationwide were grounded, and he didn't think there were supposed to be any planes in the air at the time. He looked up and behind him saw the plane come out of the clouds, low to the ground.

"It was moving like you wouldn't believe. Next thing I knew it makes a heck of a sharp, right-hand turn." He said the plane banked to the right and appeared to be trying to climb to clear one of the ridges, but it continued to turn to the right and then veered behind a ridge, "like somebody grabbed the wheel."

He said the plane disappeared behind a tree line on a ridge. "I knew it was going to crash," Butler said. About a second after it disappeared, he heard the boom and saw the smoke rise above the trees. "It was eerie." (8)

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"It shook the whole station," said Bruce Grine, owner of an auto service center in Shanksville, about 3 miles from the crash site. "Everybody ran outside, and by that time the fire whistle was blowing." (3)
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Eric Peterson of Lambertsville looked up when he heard the plane. "It was low enough, I thought you could probably count the rivets," Peterson said. "You could see more of the roof of the plane than you could the belly. It was on its side."

"There was a great explosion and you could see the flames. It was a massive, massive explosion. Flames and then smoke and then a massive, massive mushroom cloud."

Peterson called 9-1-1 and ran to the crash site but found only burning jet parts, pieces of clothing, and seat cushions.
….
Rose Goodwin, a freshman at Shanksville Stony Creek High School, was watching the television news in class when Flight 93 went down.

"We felt it. We thought something must have landed on the roof," she said. "It was like, Oh my gosh, what was that?' We looked out the window and saw a black cloud. Everyone started screaming."

Viola Saylor of Lambertsville was outside talking to her sister.

"We didn't hear that plane coming until it was right on top of us," she said. "Then there was a roar."

She said the plane appeared to be gliding into the ground.

"All at once it just stopped. There was no engine noise, nothing. Someone hollered, Oh my God!' and then there was a real loud thud." (11)

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Michael R. Merringer was out on a mountain bike ride with his wife, Amy, about two miles away from the crash site.

"I heard the engine gun two different times and then I heard a loud bang and the windows of the houses all around rattled," Merringer said. "I looked up and I saw the smoke coming up."

The couple rushed home and drove near the scene. "Everything was on fire and there was trees knocked down and there was a big hole in the ground," he said. … (10)
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For Lee Purbaugh, 31, of Listie, the thought of seeing a plane crash right before his eyes still seemed unbelievable to him when interviewed a half-hour later.

“I never in my life thought I would see a plane crash right before my very eyes,” said Purbaugh, who was at the wreckage within minutes after the crash.

Purbaugh’s second day on the job at Rollock Inc., a scrap metal company which owns the Diamond T mine, a former PBS Coals dig directly above the crash site, came with a shocking surprise. The crash happened within 200 yards of Purbaugh’s view.

“I happened to hear this noise and looked up,” said Purbaugh, who indicated the plane was about 40 to 50 feet above him. “I didn’t know if I should duck or what because this plane was so low but then in a split second it hit.”

Purbaugh describes the crash as “just like a big mushroom cloud.” He says when it hit, it “shook the ground, rolled over in some way and then collapsed.” … (12)

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A witness said he heard two loud bangs before watching the plane take a downward turn of nearly 90 degrees. … Many witnesses said that their homes were shaking violently as the plane flew low overhead. A witness told WTAE-TV's Paul Van Osdol that she saw the plane overhead. It made a high-pitched, screeching sound. The plane then made a sharp, 90-degree downward turn and crashed. (9)
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The plane seemed to be fully, or largely, intact. "I didn't see no smoke, nothing," said Nevin Lambert, an elderly farmer who witnessed the crash from his side yard less than a half-mile away.

Lambert also said he also later found a couple of pieces of debris, one a piece of metal, less than 12 inches across, with some insulation attached. … (15)
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Then a call came in from one of Madigan’s troopers: He had just heard an explosion so violent it shook his home. Soon phones at the barracks were ringing off the hook. Madigan and other troopers rushed to the scene, …

Rick King, 42, of Shanksville, was behind the wheel of the first fire truck to arrive at the crash scene, …

The former assistant chief of the Shanksville volunteer fire department had heard Flight 93 scream overhead, seen a massive fireball light up the sky and felt an explosion rock the entire town of Shanksville. …

But besides a burning landing-gear tire, smoldering branches in the nearby woods and a few brush fires, there was little to indicate a jetliner had just crashed, he says. “Where is this plane? And where are the people?” he remembers thinking as he stepped off the truck. (16)
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Minutes later, the plane crashed in rural Somerset County, about 20 miles away.

"It was like an atomic bomb hit," said John Walsh, 72, who heard the crash and drove to the site while still in his bathrobe. "When I got there, the plane was obliterated. You couldn't see the cockpit or the wings or nothing." (20)

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Witnesses said they thought the wings of the Boeing 757 were wagging from side to side as it plunged toward the earth. (19)

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Larry Williams, a former state police trooper who is now a private investigator, was golfing on the 17th green at Oakbrook Golf Course about eight miles away when he heard the engines "roar real loud and shut off." …

Blair, of Stoystown, a driver with Jim Barron Trucking of Somerset, was traveling in a coal truck along with Doug Miller of Somerset, when they saw the plane spiraling to the ground and then explode on the outskirts of Lambertsville.

"I saw the plane flying upside down overhead and crash into the nearby trees. My buddy, Doug, and I grabbed our fire extinguishers and ran to the scene," said Blair.

"I saw the mushroom cloud and we called 911 right away," added Blair. "I knew with that crash that it wasn't likely there were survivors, but we had to go anyways. The plane was coming in on a slant and really hit the treeline at an angle."

“[Lucy] Menear, who lives across from the Lambertsville Road at the intersection where a graveled road leads to the crash site near the strip mine, said, "I felt the ground shake with the impact. I didn't know the plane had crashed. It was just a big jolt."

Laura Temyer of Hooversville …."I didn't see the plane but I heard the plane's engine. Then I heard a loud thump that echoed off the hills and then I heard the plane's engine. I heard two more loud thumps and didn't hear the plane's engine anymore after that."....

Kim Custer, 15, a tenth grader at Shanksville Stonycreek High School, said she was on the second floor of the school, located only a few miles from the crash site, when the plane went down.

"I looked up and saw the ceiling tiles jump up and down, then I felt the whole building shake," she said. "Then we heard a big boom

[Behshad]

A plane that crashes , doesn't have 5 miles of debris across the ground.


FLIGHT 93 SHOT DOWN

Eyewitness Reports at Odds With Official Scenario

 

By Christopher Bollyn

INDIAN LAKE, Pennsylvania—Eyewitness testimonies have generally been excluded from the official version of 9-11. In the Shanksville area, where many residents believe Flight 93 was shot down, there are scores of eyewitnesses whose testimonies contradict the government’s claim that courageous passengers fought hijackers, forcing the jetliner to crash rather than be flown into a building.

Some local residents here are deeply offended by the official explanation of what supposedly happened to United Airlines Flight 93, calling it a patriotic pack of lies.

Fearful of retribution from federal agents, many eyewitnesses who spoke with American Free Press asked that their names not be published.

While differing on some details of the plane said to be Flight 93, which passed over Lambertsville, eyewitnesses agree that unexplained military aircraft were in the immediate vicinity when a huge explosive “fireball” occurred at the reclaimed coal mine near Shanksville.

Viola Saylor saw Flight 93 pass very low over her house in Lambertsville, which is a mile north of the official crash site. She was in her backyard when she heard a very loud noise and looked up to find herself “nose to nose” with Flight 93, which she says was flying “upside down” as it passed overhead. It was blue and silver, she said, and glistened in the sunlight. It was so low that it rustled the leaves of her 100-foot maple tree in her yard.

It flew southeastward for about three more seconds and even gained elevation before it crashed over the hill with a “thud,” she said.

“It was really still for a second,” she said. “Then all of a sudden” she saw a “very quiet” and low-flying white “military” plane coming from the area of the crash site, flying toward the northwest.

“It was flying very fast, like it was trying to get out of here,” she said. “A second or two” behind the “military” plane were two other planes, which Saylor described as “normal” planes.

Shown a photograph of a Fairchild A-10 Thunderbolt II, a low-flying combat aircraft commonly referred to as a “Warthog,” Saylor identified it as the military plane she had seen. She said she recognized the two engines on the rear and the distinctive shape of the cockpit and nose of the plane.

Similar eyewitness reports of military planes over Shanksville on 9-11 remain censored by the U.S. corporate media, although they were reported in two leading British newspapers.

Susan McElwain, a local teacher, also reported seeing a white “military” plane at the scene of the crash before witnessing an explosion. Ms. Mcelwain told The Daily Mirror what she saw:

“It came right over me, I reckon just 40 or 50 feet above my mini-van,” she recalled. “It was so low I ducked instinctively. It was traveling real fast, but hardly made any sound.

“Then it disappeared behind some trees. A few seconds later I heard this great explosion and saw this fireball rise up over the trees, so I figured the jet had crashed. The ground really shook. So I dialed 911 and told them what happened.

“I’d heard nothing about the other attacks and it was only when I got home and saw the TV that I realized it wasn’t the white jet, but Flight 93.

“I didn’t think much more about it until the authorities started to say there had been no other plane. The plane I saw was heading right to the point where Flight 93 crashed and must have been there at the very moment it came down.

“There’s no way I imagined this plane—it was so low it was virtually on top of me. It was white with no markings but it was definitely military, it just had that look.

“It had two rear engines, a big fin on the back like a spoiler on the back of a car and with two upright fins at the side,” Ms. McElwain said. “I haven’t found one like it on the Internet. It definitely wasn’t one of those executive jets.

[However,] the FBI came and talked to me and said there was no plane around.”

The plane Ms. McElwain describes is similar to the Warthog seen by Saylor over Lambertsville.

“Then [FBI agents] changed their story and tried to say it was a plane taking pictures of the crash 3,000 feet up,” she said. “But I saw it, and it was there before the crash, and it was 40 feet above my head. They did not want my story—nobody here did.”

The U.S. media has only reported what Bill Crowley, FBI spokesman from Pittsburgh, said about other planes in the area: “Two other airplanes were flying near the hijacked United Airlines jet when it crashed, but neither had anything to do with the airliner’s fate.”

In an apparent slip of the tongue, Crowley said one of the planes, “a Fairchild Falcon 20 business jet,” had been directed to the crash site to help rescuers. The Falcon 20, however, is made by Dassault of France while Fairchild made the A-10 Thunderbolt II, the plane described by Ms. Mcelwain and identified by other eyewitnesses.

The Daily American of nearby Somerset did not want Ms. McElwain’s story. In fact, the local paper has never reported that at least 12 local residents saw several unexplained aircraft at the time of the crash.

Asked why the paper has not mentioned these eyewitness reports, managing editor Brian P. Whipkey told AFP “They could not be substantiated.”

THE SCREAMING THING

At the horseshoe-shaped Indian Lake, about a mile east of the official crash site, several eyewitnesses recalled hearing “a screaming thing” that “screeched” as it passed over the golf course and lakeside community immediately before a huge explosion shook the ground.

Chris Smith, the groundskeeper at the golf course, said something with a “very loud screeching sound” passed over in the immediate vicinity of the golf course before he heard a huge explosion.

 “It was like nothing I’ve ever heard before,” Smith said.

The explosion that followed sounded like a “sonic boom,” he said. Smith and others said they felt the shock wave from the explosion.

Smith said he was used to seeing a variety of military aircraft from the nearby Air National Guard bases in Johnstown and Cumberland, Md.

Another groundskeeper said he saw a silver plane pass overhead toward the crash site from the southeast after hearing the loud “screeching” sound. The large silver plane was at an elevation of several thousand feet, he said.

A local veteran who flew combat helicopters in the Vietnam War told AFP that the high-pitched screeching sound was indicative of a missile.

Shown a photo of an A-10 Warthog, the groundskeeper identified it as the kind of plane that circled the crash site at a very low altitude three times before flying away. He recognized the two vertical fins on the rear of the plane. “Nobody was interested in what we saw,” he said. “They didn’t even ask us.”

Mobile telephones and satellite televisions in the Indian Lake area did not work at the time of the crash, he said. Paul Muro was in his yard in Lambertsville when Flight 93 passed overhead. Muro, who lives a half-mile closer to the crash site than Saylor, said the plane was flying rightside up and normally, although it was very low.

Muro told AFP that he also saw a large silver plane approaching from the south, the opposite direction of Flight 93, above the crash site at the time of the explosion.

The silver plane then turned and headed back in the direction from which it had come, he said.

Tom Spinelli works at the Indian Lake Marina. After 9- 11, he told a Pittsburgh television news reporter about the unexplained aircraft he saw. “I saw the white plane,” he said.

“It was flying around all over the place like it was looking for something,” he said. “I saw it before and after the crash.”

AFP visited the marina and asked Spinelli about the planes he saw on 9-11.
“I’m sorry,” Spinelli said. ‘No comment’ is all I can say.”

An Indian Lake resident told AFP that federal agents had visited the marina after Spinelli had spoken to the Pittsburgh news channel, TV 4, and told him to stop talking about what he saw.

Local firefighters were also told not to talk about what they had seen at the crash site.

[Behshad]

...Donald Rumsfeld said the plane was shot down...

"I think all of us have a sense if we imagine the kind of world we would face if the people who bombed the mess hall in Mosul, or the people who did the bombing in Spain, or the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania and attacked the Pentagon..." [WorldNetDaily]


Sorry Stu , but Dan didn't wanna wait past midnight to carry on this discussion .

[Behshad]

To sum it up , there's two sides to the story and half of us believe the governments version , half of us don't.
I bet Dan wouldn't believe the governments version if Obama was in office at the time this happened

[Saint John]

...Donald Rumsfeld said the plane was shot down...

"I think all of us have a sense if we imagine the kind of world we would face if the people who bombed the mess hall in Mosul, or the people who did the bombing in Spain, or the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania and attacked the Pentagon..." [WorldNetDaily]


Sorry Stu , but Dan didn't wanna wait past midnight to carry on this discussion .

Oh, I see, you can call him (Rumsfeld) a liar and murderer, but when he makes a verbal gaffe ... it's indisputably factual. A multitude of witnesses, calls from the plane and evidence be damned. You do realize that people saw the plane come out of the sky, flying as if there was a struggle for control and then crash into a field, right?

[Behshad]

...Donald Rumsfeld said the plane was shot down...

"I think all of us have a sense if we imagine the kind of world we would face if the people who bombed the mess hall in Mosul, or the people who did the bombing in Spain, or the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania and attacked the Pentagon..." [WorldNetDaily]


Sorry Stu , but Dan didn't wanna wait past midnight to carry on this discussion .

Oh, I see, you can call him (Rumsfeld) a liar and murderer, but when he makes a verbal gaffe ... it's indisputably factual. A multitude of witnesses, calls from the plane and evidence be damned. You do realize that people saw the plane come out of the sky, flying as if there was a struggle for control and then crash into a field, right?

Show me where I once called Rummy a liar or murderer

[verslibre]

There were many, many eyewitnesses that actually, get this, saw the plane crash!

Here are some of the eyewitness accounts for flight 93, and they all seem to corroborate:


Eyewitnesses


"I never seen anything like it," Barron said. "Just like a big pile of charcoal."



A mushroom of flame rose 200 feet and disappeared. Then there was a curtain of black smoke and finally a trail of fire as pieces of the fuselage shot hundreds of yards into the woods.

"But I got there and there was nothing, nothing there but charcoal. Instantly, it was charcoal."


Charles Sturtz, 53, who lives just over the hillside from the crash site, said a fireball 200 feet high shot up over the hill. He got to the crash scene even before the firefighters.

"The biggest pieces you could find were probably four feet [long]. Most of the pieces you could put into a shopping bag, and there were clothes hanging from the trees."



"Then you heard the explosion and felt the blast and saw the fire and smoke."


"When it decided to drop, it dropped all of a sudden, like a stone," said Tom Fritz, 63. Fritz was sitting on his porch on Lambertsville Road, about a quarter mile from the crash site, when he heard a sound that "wasn't quite right" and looked up in the sky.



"There was a great explosion and you could see the flames. It was a massive, massive explosion. Flames and then smoke and then a massive, massive mushroom cloud."

Peterson called 9-1-1 and ran to the crash site but found only burning jet parts, pieces of clothing, and seat cushions.



A witness said he heard two loud bangs before watching the plane take a downward turn of nearly 90 degrees.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The plane seemed to be fully, or largely, intact. "I didn't see no smoke, nothing," said Nevin Lambert, an elderly farmer who witnessed the crash from his side yard less than a half-mile away.

Lambert also said he also later found a couple of pieces of debris, one a piece of metal, less than 12 inches across, with some insulation attached.)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Then a call came in from one of Madigan’s troopers: He had just heard an explosion so violent it shook his home. Soon phones at the barracks were ringing off the hook. Madigan and other troopers rushed to the scene, …

Rick King, 42, of Shanksville, was behind the wheel of the first fire truck to arrive at the crash scene, …

The former assistant chief of the Shanksville volunteer fire department had heard Flight 93 scream overhead, seen a massive fireball light up the sky and felt an explosion rock the entire town of Shanksville. …

But besides a burning landing-gear tire, smoldering branches in the nearby woods and a few brush fires, there was little to indicate a jetliner had just crashed, he says. “Where is this plane? And where are the people?” he remembers thinking as he stepped off the truck. (16)


"It was like an atomic bomb hit," said John Walsh, 72, who heard the crash and drove to the site while still in his bathrobe. "When I got there, the plane was obliterated. You couldn't see the cockpit or the wings or nothing."

So do they all "corroborate"? It looks like they do...but not merely to a plane crashing.

[verslibre]

...Donald Rumsfeld said the plane was shot down...

"I think all of us have a sense if we imagine the kind of world we would face if the people who bombed the mess hall in Mosul, or the people who did the bombing in Spain, or the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania and attacked the Pentagon..." [WorldNetDaily]


Sorry Stu , but Dan didn't wanna wait past midnight to carry on this discussion .

Oh, I see, you can call him (Rumsfeld) a liar and murderer, but when he makes a verbal gaffe ... it's indisputably factual. A multitude of witnesses, calls from the plane and evidence be damned. You do realize that people saw the plane come out of the sky, flying as if there was a struggle for control and then crash into a field, right?

Going only by the examples you posted, it's painfully obvious they saw and/or heard more than just that. When I read terms like "mushroom cloud," "explosion," "charcoal," "fireball," "blast," "bang," etc., hardware (the blow-it-up kind) enters the equation. Some people saw only a couple parts, some saw more, some saw nothing left but "charcoal," and some noticed clothing hanging in the trees. For fabric to land in trees it has to fall from the sky.

[steveo777]

no, makes sense, all forward motion, other than propulsion at moment of impact would be halted,
resulting in the fastest way to bring it straight down. Very brave pro's we have !

They make it sound like it would just fall out of the sky. It would slow down, but would still have forward momentum and come down at at angle. Do you know how fast planes fly? That doesn't sound right at all.

My dad (who flew for AA for 30 years) used to joke that airliners glided like "leaded manhole covers" when they lost power.


That was the first thing I thought of when I heard about Captain Sully landing his in the Hudson.

An Airplane can fly with no engines on as long as there is enough altitude to trade for air speed. Once air speed drops to a certain point the wings go into a stall
and cannot sustain the plane in flight. At this point it would drop vertically.

[DrFU]

no, makes sense, all forward motion, other than propulsion at moment of impact would be halted,
resulting in the fastest way to bring it straight down. Very brave pro's we have !

They make it sound like it would just fall out of the sky. It would slow down, but would still have forward momentum and come down at at angle. Do you know how fast planes fly? That doesn't sound right at all.

My dad (who flew for AA for 30 years) used to joke that airliners glided like "leaded manhole covers" when they lost power.


That was the first thing I thought of when I heard about Captain Sully landing his in the Hudson.

An Airplane can fly with no engines on as long as there is enough altitude to trade for air speed. Once air speed drops to a certain point the wings go into a stall
and cannot sustain the plane in flight. At this point it would drop vertically.

Yup; I know; in addition to Dad, one brother was FA 18 carrier pilot and the other a corporate pilot for Haliburton. You can imagine the conversations growing up.

Sully was on take off when the birds went through the engines and wasn't very high up; it is truly a miracle (and a testiment to his great skill) that everyone walked away from that one.