Are We Biased or is Journey THAT Good?

[JRNYMAN]

There's a consistent description of a Journey audience's participation level and the amount of appreciation they show the band that has me wondering if Journey audiences really are that much louder and - uproarious, for lack of a more apropos term - or if those descriptions are only coming from veteran Journey fans, in which case, it can only mean those describing the crowd's responses and participation at a Journey show are biased and my question becomes moot and null. I don't think the latter is necessarily the case, however.

It's a given those who are regular contributors to this forum are indeed more than just a casual fan of the band. Those of us who have closely followed the band's history since at least as far back as 1978, might even be considered to be uber-fans or diehard fans or (insert your preference here). Additionally, i tend to believe that those who take the time to write, edit, and post a genuine review of a particular show on a forum's message board would undoubtedly be considered more than just a casual fan. Still with me? If both of these statements are correct then it's no stretch to assume that their experience at a show might include one or two extra superlatives when describing how "fucking incredibly awesome " the band was on the night these fans attended a show.

Now, if we can assume that everything I've written so far is fairly accurate, these fans could be classified as biased with regards to their enthusiasm and appreciation for Journey. With that in mind, how serious then can we take a casual fan's description of an audience when it echoes that of the uber-fan's?

What I'm getting at here is the comments we read time and time again like, "The crowd went freaking nuts when they started to play..." or "I've never seen a crowd with the excitement level of the crowd at last night's Journey show!" I even commented in my review of the the show here in Phoenix in July on the enthusiasm being noticeably greater than that I've experienced at other shows by other bands I've seen in the past - and witnessing near pandemonium at the intro to DSB. Reading Dan's review tonight of his show, he went as far as to state the following, "Then, the opening keys to DSB, made it sound as if the roof was going to come off the place. I've been to a lot of concerts and that may have been the loudest reaction to a song I've ever heard. Like Dan, I've been to my share of concerts - well over 150 in my life - and I can't say with any conviction that I've seen/heard/been part of a crowd that was more appreciative, enthusiastic, and just plain nuts for a band more than what I've experienced at a Journey show - especially at the moment when the house lights go dark and the band is being walked to their respective places on stage... (Oooo goosebumps! ) . But, the opinions of Dan and I have to be immediately disqualified if you agreed with the points I made at the beginning of this post.

So then, with a scientific, definitive answer impossible to obtain, we are forced to rely on opinion alone which makes the opinions and remarks by us "uber-fans" valid and relevant.

With all this in mind, I'm very anxious to read your thoughts about this subject and help to decide if we are all indeed just biased or certifiably nuts!

[Gideon]

Journey consistently performs very well live. Certain websites considered Perry the greatest live singer in rock history (and provided detailed reasons and verification for such beliefs). Captured demonstrates the band's ability to replicate their studio music damn near perfectly when they desire. The 2001 and Manila dvds illustrate the formidable musicianship that these men of late middle age are capable of wielding. My old man's been to dozens of concerts over the years and he swears Journey is always near the top. He said the only band who might do better live is Rush.

So no, I don't think it's bias. I think they kick ass live.

[JRNYMAN]

Journey consistently performs very well live. Certain websites considered Perry the greatest live singer in rock history (and provided detailed reasons and verification for such beliefs). Captured demonstrates the band's ability to replicate their studio music damn near perfectly when they desire. The 2001 and Manila dvds illustrate the formidable musicianship that these men of late middle age are capable of wielding. My old man's been to dozens of concerts over the years and he swears Journey is always near the top. He said the only band who might do better live is Rush.

So no, I don't think it's bias. I think they kick ass live.

Yeah but you're the spawn of an uber-fan.....

I've given this subject a lot of thought lately and as I thought about other shows I've been to with comparable sized crowds at the same venue or similar, the only band that came to mind for me was RUSH as well. The beginning of Tom Sawyer, Spirit of Radio, The Trees, and/or Closer to the Heart all rival that of the intro to DSB, Faithfully, and/or Open Arms, but I still don't think RUSH's crowds "out-crowd" Journey's.

Thanks for the great reply and the cool info!

[Gideon]

Can't say this isn't the first time I've been called spawn.
But I can say it probably won't be the last.

[Don]

While Journey is great live, if you go to an Iron Maiden show, I would dare say they out crowd Journey fans. The same with Metallica and AC-DC fans. Of course those gigs won't have mood softeners like Open Arms thrown in. Seen Maiden at the Forum a few years back, it was full afterburners the whole show. You can't really achieve that with a melodic rock band as ballads are part of the genre and have to be played no matter what; it seems the whole AOR experience live is about going up and down and finishing way up.
Still, crowd noise is only part of it. I saw Pink Floyd in 94 and Roger Waters last year. While the crowds may not have been as loud as a Journey or Maiden crowd, the music is so different it doesn't require that audible response from the masses to know that it's stellar. Like the Moody Blues, people don't need to scream their heads off to come out of the show thinking "That was bloody fantastic."
Now as far as uber fans, superfans, diehards, etc. chances are that if you go to the fansites for Foreigner, Heart, Pat Benatar, Bon Jovi and so on and so on, you are going to see the same superlatives used in reviews of their shows also. It's what fans do, the bias is a natural part of that.

My own opinion is that Journey is good but not as fantastic as they were in their hay day, live. Neal just shreds to much. Seeing them in 81,82 and 83 Schon played with so much soul you could hear the guitar speaking to you no matter where you were sitting at JFK or the Spectrum. Now though with the extended outros, the five minute Eddie Van Halen solos, the ten minute wind downs at the end of each freakin' song, it's just too much puff and not enough substance. Go watch Justin Hayward play guitar when the Moodies are performing Just A Singer In A Rock&Roll Band. The guy plays with just as much discipline as he did back in the 70s. That is what makes the Moody Blues shows so great. They keep it professional throughout and don't feel they need to get their own individual spot light moment at the expense of their bandmates. I still believe Journey does a great live show but it's not the end all that it used to be back in the early 80s. that's for sure.

[JRNYMAN]

While Journey is great live, if you go to an Iron Maiden show, I would dare say they out crowd Journey fans. The same with Metallica and AC-DC fans. Of course those gigs won't have mood softeners like Open Arms thrown in. Seen Maiden at the Forum a few years back, it was full afterburners the whole show. You can't really achieve that with a melodic rock band as ballads are part of the genre and have to be played no matter what; it seems the whole AOR experience live is about going up and down and finishing way up.
Still, crowd noise is only part of it. I saw Pink Floyd in 94 and Roger Waters last year. While the crowds may not have been as loud as a Journey or Maiden crowd, the music is so different it doesn't require that audible response from the masses to know that it's stellar. Like the Moody Blues, people don't need to scream their heads off to come out of the show thinking "That was bloody fantastic."
Now as far as uber fans, superfans, diehards, etc. chances are that if you go to the fansites for Foreigner, Heart, Pat Benatar, Bon Jovi and so on and so on, you are going to see the same superlatives used in reviews of their shows also. It's what fans do, the bias is a natural part of that.

My own opinion is that Journey is good but not as fantastic as they were in their hay day, live. Neal just shreds to much. Seeing them in 81,82 and 83 Schon played with so much soul you could hear the guitar speaking to you no matter where you were sitting at JFK or the Spectrum. Now though with the extended outros, the five minute Eddie Van Halen solos, the ten minute wind downs at the end of each freakin' song, it's just too much puff and not enough substance. Go watch Justin Hayward play guitar when the Moodies are performing Just A Singer In A Rock&Roll Band. The guy plays with just as much discipline as he did back in the 70s. That is what makes the Moody Blues shows so great. They keep it professional throughout and don't feel they need to get their own individual spot light moment at the expense of their bandmates. I still believe Journey does a great live show but it's not the end all that it used to be back in the early 80s. that's for sure.

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!! Excellent perspective and fantastic points all around. You bring up a couple of extremely good points not the least of which is the fact that (in so many words...) the Journey the gained and earned the vast, worldwide fan-base - many of whom are the 40,50, and 60 somethings appearing at shows along the current tour path - was a far different band than the one that is still selling out venues today with an even more different.... different-er? whatever.... show featuring the very things you listed, most of which are not features at all to the aging fan-base.
Still though, the largest demographic buying those tickets and selling out the shows are the very fans who fell in love with and had their lives and hearts touched by Journey's music so many years ago. We all have heard or read the comments of those who attended a show featuring the current incarnation and weren't even aware SP was no longer with the band. They don't have a clue about the current situation, issues, etc. of the band - and from what I've seen and read, they don't want too either. They just know that at this point in their lives, the band which saw them through their impressionable teen years, relationships, triumphs and failures and all the other stuff that are the essential building blocks of all young adults, are still out there, still playing what may have been the most important song of their lives at one point and that fact alone is EXTREMELY relevant and important to them especially for those who are still with their high school sweetheart who experienced allllllllll those things I listed and so much more. So in that regard, those individuals are going to the shows and screaming their heads off because of the role Journey's music played in their lives and not what the music from their last 4 albums did for them. Wait what....? Journey had albums after Frontiers or ROR?!
That portion of the crowd I get and can bond with because I was one of those pathetic, sappy, romantic, ballad-loving, keyboard playing bastards who identified with a specific Journey song at various milestones and cavernous plunges that happens to all of us as we navigate the path from teens to twenty somethings. My path just happened to take place from 1978 to when I got married in 1986. So, yeah I get it.

The other points you bring up though Don, I don't think I considered - at least not the way you presented them. Regarding Iron Maiden, they're one of the few bands I've actually heard talked about as having the most loyal, amazing fan-base rivaling that of the Grateful Dead's.

Thanks for the reply and the perspective!

[Archetype]

I have to second the Iron Maiden point. I saw them last summer on their Final Frontier tour and it was without a doubt one of the most energetic and entertaining concerts I have ever been to. They're serious pros at playing live. The crowd was going apeshit the entire time. Old songs, new songs, didn't matter. That crowd was amped the fuck up. Maiden didn't even play one of their biggest songs (The Trooper) and people still left thrilled. Would Journey get away with not playing Wheel In The Sky or Faithfully? I think not.

Here are some videos that I took from that concert

Hallowed Be Thy Name

No More Lies

Brave New World

Number Of The Beast

Eddie comes out on stage

[AR]

Add Rush and Kiss to the list of extremely dedicated fans in a live setting.

[JRNYMAN]

Add Rush and Kiss to the list of extremely dedicated fans in a live setting.

Yup, RUSH was mentioned and as for KISS, well.... there's a whole army of those fans!

[Arkansas]

Hard to put into words. I've never really thought of Journey as a band. When I think of Journey, I think of the music itself...of the albums. I think of certain musicians coming together to make records. And concerts, likewise. To me it's always been a group of guys playing the music they created. I mean, I see individuals playing their parts. Go back to the classic lineup, each of those five guys (six w/GR), were just replicating the music right in front of us...basically proving that they were the guys that recorded it. And I think key is musicianship...they're all masters. Steve Smith made the drums an integral part of the Journey music because he was an individual artist, not just a drummer. Look back to all the songs SS played. He's just as distinct as any of the other players.

It's just so hard to explain. But I've never really listened to Journey as a band. I always hear all the individual parts. Whereas bands like REO, Styx, Foreigner, Boston, et al, I hear a solid core of music, a package. Journey, on the other hand, to me has always been a different animal.


later~

[jestor92]

I think it's a bias personally.

Here me out here. First and foremost I never unfortunetly got to witness a Steve Perry concert. I have seen the band perform on 4 separate occasion's with Steve Augeri (including my first concert).

The thing I've noticed in each of the times I've seen the band is that yes they're good at what they do, but in no way shape or form was I wowed when I saw them perform. On 2 of the occasions I saw them perform they were outperformed by another band that they were touring with (Styx in 03 and Lepp). The concerts are enjoyable because I've enjoyed the music, but as a band they haven't been near the most enjoyable concerts I've been to. Bands that I've seen in concert that I've had more fun are KISS, Extreme (That's a sick band live), Sammy Hagar, Heaven and Hell, Dennis DeYoung, Styx, The Black Crowes (They're really hit or miss but I was at their first gig in the 05 reunion and it's was majestic), Def Lepp just to name a few. Of the bands that I've mentioned the only ones whose music I enjoy more than Journey's are KISS and Heaven and Hell (I'm a long time Black Sabbath fan), and maybe The Black Crowes (Depends on my mood).

[AR]

I think it's a bias personally.

Here me out here. First and foremost I never unfortunetly got to witness a Steve Perry concert. I have seen the band perform on 4 separate occasion's with Steve Augeri (including my first concert).

The thing I've noticed in each of the times I've seen the band is that yes they're good at what they do, but in no way shape or form was I wowed when I saw them perform. On 2 of the occasions I saw them perform they were outperformed by another band that they were touring with (Styx in 03 and Lepp). The concerts are enjoyable because I've enjoyed the music, but as a band they haven't been near the most enjoyable concerts I've been to. Bands that I've seen in concert that I've had more fun are KISS, Extreme (That's a sick band live), Sammy Hagar, Heaven and Hell, Dennis DeYoung, Styx, The Black Crowes (They're really hit or miss but I was at their first gig in the 05 reunion and it's was majestic), Def Lepp just to name a few. Of the bands that I've mentioned the only ones whose music I enjoy more than Journey's are KISS and Heaven and Hell (I'm a long time Black Sabbath fan), and maybe The Black Crowes (Depends on my mood).

Fair statement.

I saw Dio Disciples last night. As a huge Dio/Sabbath fan it was something I needed to almost say goodbye to RJD

[Gideon]

How many concerts have you been to, Ed? Approximate total.

[AR]

How many concerts have you been to, Ed? Approximate total.

OMG Gid, totaling that would be something else!

[Gideon]

How many concerts have you been to, Ed? Approximate total.

OMG Gid, totaling that would be something else!

I'm going to guess.... 100?

[JRNYMAN]

How many concerts have you been to, Ed? Approximate total.

OMG Gid, totaling that would be something else!

Same here! I actually tried to accurately (or thereabouts) figure it out once a few years back and because I worked at one of only 2 venues that presented major acts in Reno for 1.5 years back in '82-'83 and saw basically every act that came through there during that time, it skews my accuracy since I honestly don't remember every act that performed during that time. It kinda sucks in a way because I'd really like to know that number - if for no other reason than to be able to brag about it if it's some phenomenal figure or to be able to answer that same question if Gid ever asked me!

I know it's over 100 and somewhere in the neighborhood of 135-150 ish....? But there were acts I would have NEVER paid to see or gone to see if the tix were given to me but that I ended up seeing because I had to be there... Thompson Twins, Culture Club, Kajagoogoo, Tiffany... you get the idea.

[jihavoh]

I was fortunate enough to attend quite a few concerts this season:

Weird Al
Robert Plant
Motley Crue/Poison/New York Dolls
Journey/Foreigner/Night Ranger
Def Leppard/Heart
Incubus/Greek Fire
Uproar Fest (Sevendust, Bullet For My Valentine, Seether, Three Days Grace, Avenged Sevenfold, etc.)

Incubus has an amazing audience. They went on these long jam sessions that would have sent the casual Journey fan to the concession stands, but nobody budged or sat down at ANY point. As we well know, as soon as Journey breaks into an Eclipse track 99.9% of the audience sits down. Actually, I was going to evaluate all of the audiences here, but don't feel like it now lol. Journey has some very loyal fans, but they are the exception not the rule. btw, if anyone has a chance to check out A7X the absolutely should!

[Michigan Girl]

I was fortunate enough to attend quite a few concerts this season:

Weird Al
Robert Plant
Motley Crue/Poison/New York Dolls
Journey/Foreigner/Night Ranger
Def Leppard/Heart
Incubus/Greek Fire
Uproar Fest (Sevendust, Bullet For My Valentine, Seether, Three Days Grace, Avenged Sevenfold, etc.)

Incubus has an amazing audience. They went on these long jam sessions that would have sent the casual Journey fan to the concession stands, but nobody budged or sat down at ANY point. As we well know, as soon as Journey breaks into an Eclipse track 99.9% of the audience sits down. Actually, I was going to evaluate all of the audiences here, but don't feel like it now lol. Journey has some very loyal fans, but they are the exception not the rule. btw, if anyone has a chance to check out A7X the absolutely should!

I did not know Weird Al did concerts...

[jihavoh]

LOL yeah, a family member won tickets and gave them to me. It was entertaining, but in a Disney on Ice kind of way. He changes outfits for like every song. LOL =) Glad I went, but also glad I didn't buy the tickets (: