The time has come to fire Francona

[jestor92]

And the Phillies are buying this year's WS....way to stay classy Philadelphia....

I disagree. Of the Phillies players who played in over 100 games for them this year 6 of them spent a large amount of their time with the organization in the Phils minor league system (I'm counting Mayberry because he's been up and down from Lehigh Valley the last few seasons). Of the 7 Phillies who started games this year 3 of them came up through the teams system. Of the Phillies that pitched in 20 games or more game 7 of the 13 either came up through the Phils system or were selected in the Rule V Draft (Herndon). 13/25 players on the Phillies roster came up through the team's system. I wouldn't say that is buying the World Series at all.

The biggest names to come up through the Phillies minor league system: Howard, Utley, Rollins, Victorino (Rule V pick), Ruiz, Bastardo Madsen, Hamels, Worley

Gotta disagree...their offense sucks. They bought Lee, and Halladay....THAT'S why they are winning all these games.

Let's also not forget the biggest names the Phils have brought into the team via free agency are Lee and Ibanez. Halladay they aquired via trade, Oswalt they acquired via trade, Lidge they acquired via trade. Hell they originally aquired Lee via trade. Teams can't do that kind of stuff unless they have a farm system that is stacked and the Phils farm system was stacked and still in the lower minors is very good.

The fact of the matter is their core came through the minor leagues which is impressive. They have a high payroll, but they're not like the Yanks or the Bo Sox in the part where each team has like 3 key players on their roster that they developed and the rest they pilaged off other teams.

[Red13JoePa]

And the Phillies are buying this year's WS....way to stay classy Philadelphia....

I disagree. Of the Phillies players who played in over 100 games for them this year 6 of them spent a large amount of their time with the organization in the Phils minor league system (I'm counting Mayberry because he's been up and down from Lehigh Valley the last few seasons). Of the 7 Phillies who started games this year 3 of them came up through the teams system. Of the Phillies that pitched in 20 games or more game 7 of the 13 either came up through the Phils system or were selected in the Rule V Draft (Herndon). 13/25 players on the Phillies roster came up through the team's system. I wouldn't say that is buying the World Series at all.

The biggest names to come up through the Phillies minor league system: Howard, Utley, Rollins, Victorino (Rule V pick), Ruiz, Bastardo Madsen, Hamels, Worley

Gotta disagree...their offense sucks. They bought Lee, and Halladay....THAT'S why they are winning all these games.

Lee took less money from the Phillies because he wanted to play here. The Phillies' offer came in lower than the Yankees.

You can't go by sheer numbers like that.....and here's why.

If I told you team 'A' got Verlander, Kershaw, Lee, Halladay, and Wilson in free agency - but the remainder of the 25 from their farm system for a ratio of 20/25 in favor of homegrown talent - are you still trying to tell me Team 'A' didn't buy the series if they actually win it?

It isn't how many you buy, but WHO is being bought.

A Red Sox fan whining about titles being bought.
Red Sox won it all twice doing the exact same thing.
I would take JohnFromBoston's advice, man.
They lost, chalk it up, face it, move on to next year.
I did the last 2 years with the Phillies.

[S2M]

Wrong...let's hear all these players that the Sox bought to win those titles.

[Red13JoePa]

Bought, and roided I shoulda said.

[conversationpc]

Wrong...let's hear all these players that the Sox bought to win those titles.

This is one I'll have to agree with you on...Most of the Sox core players are ones they either developed in their minor league system (one of the best in baseball, imo) or traded for, not just purchased via free agency.

[Red13JoePa]

Wrong...let's hear all these players that the Sox bought to win those titles.

This is one I'll have to agree with you on...Most of the Sox core players are ones they either developed in their minor league system (one of the best in baseball, imo) or traded for, not just purchased via free agency.

And it's the same with the Phillies.

[Enigma869]

Wrong...let's hear all these players that the Sox bought to win those titles.

It doesn't even matter. Free agency exists and pretending that the Red Sox are one of the "have not" teams is fucking absurd. Furthermore, making it sound like all the key players in the Red Sox championships were homegrown is equally absurd. Just off the top of my head...Curt Schilling (and yes, I know that the Red Sox did originally draft him before trading him for Boddicker), Pedro Martinez, Keith Foulke, Mike Timlin, Derek Lowe, Bill Mueller, Mark Bellhorn, Johnny Damon, Kevin Millar, Manny Ramirez, Jason Varitek. Just because Varitek and Lowe were on the team from the Slocumb trade doesn't make them home grown players. It's really a dopey argument and reaks of someone who didn't even know the players on the 2004 and 2007 teams.

[conversationpc]

Wrong...let's hear all these players that the Sox bought to win those titles.

It doesn't even matter. Free agency exists and pretending that the Red Sox are one of the "have not" teams is fucking absurd. Furthermore, making it sound like all the key players in the Red Sox championships were homegrown is equally absurd. Just off the top of my head...Curt Schilling (and yes, I know that the Red Sox did originally draft him before trading him for Boddicker), Pedro Martinez, Keith Foulke, Mike Timlin, Derek Lowe, Bill Mueller, Mark Bellhorn, Johnny Damon, Kevin Millar, Manny Ramirez, Jason Varitek. Just because Varitek and Lowe were on the team from the Slocumb trade doesn't make them home grown players. It's really a dopey argument and reaks of someone who didn't even know the players on the 2004 and 2007 teams.

Who's saying the success was all from homegrown players???

[S2M]

Wrong...let's hear all these players that the Sox bought to win those titles.

It doesn't even matter. Free agency exists and pretending that the Red Sox are one of the "have not" teams is fucking absurd. Furthermore, making it sound like all the key players in the Red Sox championships were homegrown is equally absurd. Just off the top of my head...Curt Schilling (and yes, I know that the Red Sox did originally draft him before trading him for Boddicker), Pedro Martinez, Keith Foulke, Mike Timlin, Derek Lowe, Bill Mueller, Mark Bellhorn, Johnny Damon, Kevin Millar, Manny Ramirez, Jason Varitek. Just because Varitek and Lowe were on the team from the Slocumb trade doesn't make them home grown players. It's really a dopey argument and reaks of someone who didn't even know the players on the 2004 and 2007 teams.

It's not a dopey argument because you are merely trying to out-dick me. Schilling was acquired via trade, Pedro was TRADED for Pavano and Armas Jr....

I'm not arguing that Boston hasn't purchased players via free agency, but to suggest they have 'bought' their titles is ludicrous...

When I think of the term 'bought', I'm talking - 2 or 3 team bidding wars where a big market with deep pockets wins in the end....

[Seven Wishes2]

A Red Sox fan whining about titles being bought.
Red Sox won it all twice doing the exact same thing.
I would take JohnFromBoston's advice, man.
They lost, chalk it up, face it, move on to next year.
I did the last 2 years with the Phillies.

Castoffs (like Ortiz was in 2002) should never be counted if a team like the Sox picks the guy up as a FA when no-one else wants him, and the guy turns his career around and puts up huge numbers.

The Sox only had 3 free agents upon who ANY other team had bid in 2004. The majority of their free agents were guys NOBODY else wanted. They were FAR more home-grown than the current Phillies are. No comparison.

[Red13JoePa]

Free agency and trades are part of the game.

All the teams use it, some have more wherewithal to use them and success at it than others.


And LOL at the notion that "no one wanted Ortiz, so that makes him a homegrown Boston player even though that was a free agent signing."

[Arkansas]

Looks like someone is getting their wish - maybe.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... -manager/1


later~

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

Looks like someone is getting their wish - maybe.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... -manager/1


later~

I think its worth remembering that when Fonzie jumped the shark, the last espisode sucked, the whole TV series didn't(Well maybe it did but that would ruin my analogy) Shit last season, Francona should go, but what was accomplished most of those years was pretty darn exciting!

Some can argue with how much he had to do with it but it still happened on his watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmc18qbC ... re=related

[S2M]

What did the Tuna say way back when?

If you want me to cook dinner, let me choose the groceries.....

Happened on his watch? Maybe, but that's hardly relevant. Theo assembled this amalgam of individual personalities...they never jelled, and they were selfish players...Drew? Crawford? Lackey? Jenks?

So dump the manager, give him a great severance package so he won't badmouth the organization before you snag his replacement....reeks of scapegoatism.

[conversationpc]

What did the Tuna say way back when?

If you want me to cook dinner, let me choose the groceries.....

Happened on his watch? Maybe, but that's hardly relevant. Theo assembled this amalgam of individual personalities...they never jelled, and they were selfish players...Drew? Crawford? Lackey? Jenks?

So dump the manager, give him a great severance package so he won't badmouth the organization before you snag his replacement....reeks of scapegoatism.

Did you see Crawford's response to questions about their September collapse. Totally opposite response from Gonzalez, for instance. Crawford manned up and took responsibility while Gonzalez blamed it on their schedule and that it just wasn't in God's plan or something to that effect. I respect Crawford for that.

[conversationpc]

ESPN just reported that Francona and the Red Sox have parted ways after the team declined to exercise the option years on his contract.

[Enigma869]

So dump the manager, give him a great severance package so he won't badmouth the organization before you snag his replacement....reeks of scapegoatism.

I don't view it as "dumping" the manager at all. The reality is that Francona's contract expired at the end of this season. The Red Sox had a team option for 2012 and opted not to pick it up. Sounds about right to me. I didn't dislike Francona, but I REALLY disliked this year's team, a lot. I can't think of a team in my lifetime that I liked less. It's time for some new blood and a new attitude. Hopefully, that old fucker Wakefield will finally be put out to pasture as well.

[Don]

If the Phillies end up choking it away this year, i would like to see them go out and snag Francona for 2012.

[Don]

Apparently, some issues about off day pitchers drinking beer in the clubhouse may have played a small part in this. At least, that the rumor.

[Enigma869]

Apparently, some issues about off day pitchers drinking beer in the clubhouse may have played a small part in this. At least, that the rumor.

Indeed. Some well respected writers in Boston have reported that pitchers were drinking during games on their off days. If that's actually true, it's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/ ... -off-days/

[Red13JoePa]

If the Phillies end up choking it away this year, i would like to see them go out and snag Francona for 2012.

God no. We've BEEN down that road. Might be the only manager I rate Uncle Charlie over.