Ace Frehley falls off the stage during guitar solo

[Gideon]

Ace and tyler should form a side band... "The Falling Rockstars"....

I think Tyler actually fell in the shower the other day.

[AR]

Ace and tyler should form a side band... "The Falling Rockstars"....

That is awesome!

[verslibre]

Nah, better name: Rockslide!

[Archetype]

People actually paid to hear that? Seriously...his guitar sounded the best when he fell.

[AR]

People actually paid to hear that? Seriously...his guitar sounded the best when he fell.

People actually pay to hear JY.

[conversationpc]

People actually paid to hear that? Seriously...his guitar sounded the best when he fell.

People actually pay to hear JY.

The difference is JY is a far better guitarist.

[jestor92]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2OgbCY6u7A



Way better than that awful clip that started this thread.

Ace kicked ass on this clip. Period!

Ace is extremely hit and miss when he performs these days. He's either truly on or he sounds like shit.

[jestor92]

Ace has to be the worst famous guitarist on the planet. He just really sucks. I'm not trying to be a dick, but outside the studio, listen to the clips... he is freaking horrible, and his vocals are even worse. That solo when he fell was so shitty that I probably could have played it, and I haven't touched a guitar in years. I'm not a guitarist!! I remember thinking that when I was a kid, I thought he was the best guitarist on the planet. Kinda like I thought Peter Criss was the best drummer in the world. MAN was I delusional!!!

More people know his name than they do Neal Schon.

There is a reason why KISS has Tommy Thayer and Eric Singer though.

I don't know if that's true. When they did the "Farewell Tour" in '01 they wanted to continue with Ace and without Peter, but Ace didn't want to continue to tour with the band so they got Tommy and replaced Singer (who took over for Criss in '01) with Criss to perform in '03 and Singer took back over in '04.

KISS's weakest link right now is Paul Stanley because he can't sing anymore.

[verslibre]

KISS = Starchild and the Demon.

There was one concert without Paul, in Temecula, I believe, when he was rushed to a hospital for chest pains. He told Gene and other guys to carry on without him. So they played that night as a trio.

But there's no way that could happen on a permanent basis. KISS is Simmons and Stanley.

[jestor92]

KISS = Starchild and the Demon.

There was one concert without Paul, in Temecula, I believe, when he was rushed to a hospital for chest pains. He told Gene and other guys to carry on without him. So they played that night as a trio.

But there's no way that could happen on a permanent basis. KISS is Simmons and Stanley.

Damn right

[Deb]

Neal Schon has never truly impressed me. Same solo over and over again. You really want to talk GREAT guitar players? Ritchie Blackmore and Lindsey Buckingham.

Neal Schon is good, but not well known for a reason. He never makes any top lists of rock guitarists.

As for Ace, all criticisms warranted but he influenced more people to pick up a guitar than Schon did or ever will.

Gilbert usually does. I've always waffled back and forth on both Schon and Gilbert and who is better. I always thought Schon was a much more feeling player, but then I heard some beautiful playing of Paul's too. Both great shredders too, but for technical, Paul FTW. I've always been more of a vocals and bass gal, but have to say, I've never been so mesmerized by a guitartist's playing as I was watching PG, live.....f*ckin' amazing!

[Gideon]

Gilbert usually does. I've always waffled back and forth on both Schon and Gilbert and who is better. I always thought Schon was a much more feeling player, but then I heard some beautiful playing of Paul's too. Both great shredders too, but for technical, Paul FTW. I've always been more of a vocals and bass gal, but have to say, I've never been so mesmerized by a guitartist's playing as I was watching PG, live.....f*ckin' amazing!

Paul is a legend in most guitar circles. I have friends who love his work and when I tell them that he's the guitarist for Mr. Big, they either laugh or adamantly deny it.

[Ehwmatt]

Neal Schon has never truly impressed me. Same solo over and over again. You really want to talk GREAT guitar players? Ritchie Blackmore and Lindsey Buckingham.

Neal Schon is good, but not well known for a reason. He never makes any top lists of rock guitarists.

As for Ace, all criticisms warranted but he influenced more people to pick up a guitar than Schon did or ever will.

Gilbert usually does. I've always waffled back and forth on both Schon and Gilbert and who is better. I always thought Schon was a much more feeling player, but then I heard some beautiful playing of Paul's too. Both great shredders too, but for technical, Paul FTW. I've always been more of a vocals and bass gal, but have to say, I've never been so mesmerized by a guitartist's playing as I was watching PG, live.....f*ckin' amazing!

I definitely know more of Neal's work, but Paul is a FAR superior player when it comes to technicality.

[Deb]

Gilbert usually does. I've always waffled back and forth on both Schon and Gilbert and who is better. I always thought Schon was a much more feeling player, but then I heard some beautiful playing of Paul's too. Both great shredders too, but for technical, Paul FTW. I've always been more of a vocals and bass gal, but have to say, I've never been so mesmerized by a guitartist's playing as I was watching PG, live.....f*ckin' amazing!

Paul is a legend in most guitar circles. I have friends who love his work and when I tell them that he's the guitarist for Mr. Big, they either laugh or adamantly deny it.

Arrrrgggggg.......that's my biggest pet peeve with To Be With You. Kudos to them for going #1 in 15 countries, but they are a far cry more than just that one song. Peeves me to see peeps not delving into their catalogue, from going on that song. They have some wickedly great tunes in their catalogue. A good 95% of their catalogue is nothing like TBWY. Just like Schon's best playing is by no means showcased on their charters.

[Gideon]

Neal Schon has never truly impressed me. Same solo over and over again. You really want to talk GREAT guitar players? Ritchie Blackmore and Lindsey Buckingham.

Neal Schon is good, but not well known for a reason. He never makes any top lists of rock guitarists.

As for Ace, all criticisms warranted but he influenced more people to pick up a guitar than Schon did or ever will.

Gilbert usually does. I've always waffled back and forth on both Schon and Gilbert and who is better. I always thought Schon was a much more feeling player, but then I heard some beautiful playing of Paul's too. Both great shredders too, but for technical, Paul FTW. I've always been more of a vocals and bass gal, but have to say, I've never been so mesmerized by a guitartist's playing as I was watching PG, live.....f*ckin' amazing!

I definitely know more of Neal's work, but Paul is a FAR superior player when it comes to technicality.

Really?
From the various boards I lurk, I've seen guitarists say that many parts of Schon's technique is challenging. Can you corroborate?

[slucero]

Neal Schon has never truly impressed me. Same solo over and over again. You really want to talk GREAT guitar players? Ritchie Blackmore and Lindsey Buckingham.

Neal Schon is good, but not well known for a reason. He never makes any top lists of rock guitarists.

As for Ace, all criticisms warranted but he influenced more people to pick up a guitar than Schon did or ever will.

Gilbert usually does. I've always waffled back and forth on both Schon and Gilbert and who is better. I always thought Schon was a much more feeling player, but then I heard some beautiful playing of Paul's too. Both great shredders too, but for technical, Paul FTW. I've always been more of a vocals and bass gal, but have to say, I've never been so mesmerized by a guitartist's playing as I was watching PG, live.....f*ckin' amazing!

I definitely know more of Neal's work, but Paul is a FAR superior player when it comes to technicality.

Schons alternate picking technique is pretty damn amazing... and clean.. which is very hard at that speed...

[Ehwmatt]

Neal Schon has never truly impressed me. Same solo over and over again. You really want to talk GREAT guitar players? Ritchie Blackmore and Lindsey Buckingham.

Neal Schon is good, but not well known for a reason. He never makes any top lists of rock guitarists.

As for Ace, all criticisms warranted but he influenced more people to pick up a guitar than Schon did or ever will.

Gilbert usually does. I've always waffled back and forth on both Schon and Gilbert and who is better. I always thought Schon was a much more feeling player, but then I heard some beautiful playing of Paul's too. Both great shredders too, but for technical, Paul FTW. I've always been more of a vocals and bass gal, but have to say, I've never been so mesmerized by a guitartist's playing as I was watching PG, live.....f*ckin' amazing!

I definitely know more of Neal's work, but Paul is a FAR superior player when it comes to technicality.

Schons alternate picking technique is pretty damn amazing... and clean.. which is very hard at that speed...

Re to both of you: I'm not denigrating Neal at all. He's obviously a very good guitar player. But his technique is really nothing special when it comes to analyzing guitar on a technical level.

Schon also has said himself that he doesn't really understand music theory and just plays by ear (which makes him more remarkable in some respects). But when it comes down to it, Schon is unpolished compared to guys of Gilbert's pedigree. For example, Neal only uses 3 fingers (like Hendrix) did for his fretting hand. That's just not ideal technique in any sense.

Paul Gilbert is definitely known for alternate picking. He's a MONSTER in this field.

Technical Difficulties : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn-wj4pRpIE

Scarified: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0ylmUzNSPA

Schon simply doesn't have this type of technique. As far as who is the better songwriter: well, let's just say I have a LOT more Neal material in my library.

[Gideon]

I know you're not denigrating, I was just curious what your thoughts were from the perspective of a player. Good post. So where is Neal's technicality compared to most rock guitarists of this genre?

[slucero]

Neal Schon has never truly impressed me. Same solo over and over again. You really want to talk GREAT guitar players? Ritchie Blackmore and Lindsey Buckingham.

Neal Schon is good, but not well known for a reason. He never makes any top lists of rock guitarists.

As for Ace, all criticisms warranted but he influenced more people to pick up a guitar than Schon did or ever will.

Gilbert usually does. I've always waffled back and forth on both Schon and Gilbert and who is better. I always thought Schon was a much more feeling player, but then I heard some beautiful playing of Paul's too. Both great shredders too, but for technical, Paul FTW. I've always been more of a vocals and bass gal, but have to say, I've never been so mesmerized by a guitartist's playing as I was watching PG, live.....f*ckin' amazing!

I definitely know more of Neal's work, but Paul is a FAR superior player when it comes to technicality.

Schons alternate picking technique is pretty damn amazing... and clean.. which is very hard at that speed...

Re to both of you: I'm not denigrating Neal at all. He's obviously a very good guitar player. But his technique is really nothing special when it comes to analyzing guitar on a technical level.

Schon also has said himself that he doesn't really understand music theory and just plays by ear (which makes him more remarkable in some respects). But when it comes down to it, Schon is unpolished compared to guys of Gilbert's pedigree. For example, Neal only uses 3 fingers (like Hendrix) did for his fretting hand. That's just not ideal technique in any sense.

Paul Gilbert is definitely known for alternate picking. He's a MONSTER in this field.

Technical Difficulties : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn-wj4pRpIE

Scarified: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0ylmUzNSPA

Schon simply doesn't have this type of technique. As far as who is the better songwriter: well, let's just say I have a LOT more Neal material in my library.

didn't think you were denigrating him man......

I personally don't consider theory (knowledge or lack of) a measure of technical prowess... whether playing a mixolydian scale or a blues scale, ultimately it comes down to what the I hear... not what I see... even if it is pretty amazing to watch sometimes...

If two guitarists arrive at the same place - moving me - while having arrived there via differing routes... for me that is technical prowess.

[Ehwmatt]

I know you're not denigrating, I was just curious what your thoughts were from the perspective of a player. Good post. So where is Neal's technicality compared to most rock guitarists of this genre?

Neal is probably somewhere in the middle. Someone like Brad Gillis has very good technique and a lot more pure "shredder" in him. Mike Aquino (Pride of Lions, Jimi Jamison's Crossroads Moment) is VERY good technically and has a jazz background. Lukather has better technique too.

To be totally honest, I probably don't listen to enough AOR to rank Neal in good faith. I do know that he's one of the best writers around. But I also know there are some very good guitarists (and very bad ones too), so it's hard to say he's a technical master even within his genre, let alone all the genres I listen to. Also, even among guys who have better technique than Neal, Neal arguably inspired the entire guitar style you hear permeate the genre. Just listen to a lot of the solos from the guy who plays in WET, for example (don't know his name).

[Ehwmatt]

Neal Schon has never truly impressed me. Same solo over and over again. You really want to talk GREAT guitar players? Ritchie Blackmore and Lindsey Buckingham.

Neal Schon is good, but not well known for a reason. He never makes any top lists of rock guitarists.

As for Ace, all criticisms warranted but he influenced more people to pick up a guitar than Schon did or ever will.

Gilbert usually does. I've always waffled back and forth on both Schon and Gilbert and who is better. I always thought Schon was a much more feeling player, but then I heard some beautiful playing of Paul's too. Both great shredders too, but for technical, Paul FTW. I've always been more of a vocals and bass gal, but have to say, I've never been so mesmerized by a guitartist's playing as I was watching PG, live.....f*ckin' amazing!

I definitely know more of Neal's work, but Paul is a FAR superior player when it comes to technicality.

Schons alternate picking technique is pretty damn amazing... and clean.. which is very hard at that speed...

Re to both of you: I'm not denigrating Neal at all. He's obviously a very good guitar player. But his technique is really nothing special when it comes to analyzing guitar on a technical level.

Schon also has said himself that he doesn't really understand music theory and just plays by ear (which makes him more remarkable in some respects). But when it comes down to it, Schon is unpolished compared to guys of Gilbert's pedigree. For example, Neal only uses 3 fingers (like Hendrix) did for his fretting hand. That's just not ideal technique in any sense.

Paul Gilbert is definitely known for alternate picking. He's a MONSTER in this field.

Technical Difficulties : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn-wj4pRpIE

Scarified: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0ylmUzNSPA

Schon simply doesn't have this type of technique. As far as who is the better songwriter: well, let's just say I have a LOT more Neal material in my library.

didn't think you were denigrating him man......

I personally don't consider theory (knowledge or lack of) a measure of technical prowess... whether playing a mixolydian scale or a blues scale, ultimately it comes down to what the I hear... not what I see... even if it is pretty amazing to watch sometimes...

If two guitarists arrive at the same place - moving me - while having arrived there via differing routes... for me that is technical prowess.

I'm with ya man. I listen to some prog too. And prog fans tend to be pretty nerdy and/or snooty about this type of stuff. I'm not. There's plenty of absolute shit in that genre, regardless of how technically sound the players might be.

[verslibre]

I'm with ya man. I listen to some prog too. And prog fans tend to be pretty nerdy and/or snooty about this type of stuff. I'm not. There's plenty of absolute shit in that genre, regardless of how technically sound the players might be.

Yet here you are discussing the finer technical aspects of Gilbert's and Schon's "technique."

What does the "absolute shit in that genre" have to do with your discussion? That goes for any genre.

Personally, I stopped giving a fuck how many notes a guitarist could cram into a bar umpteen years ago. I listened to select guitarists belonging to the "shredder" or guitar virtuoso genre in the 80s/early 90s. Some of that stuff, like Vinnie Moore's Time Odyssey is very good (granted, that album sounds less like a shredder album than many others, and pre-Dream Theater Jordan Rudess is on it). Some of it is shameless wankery. It all starts to sound the same. Compare that undesired aftereffect to the wonderfully emotive playing of guys like Steve Hackett, Andy Latimer, David Gilmour, Kerry Livgren, Steve Howe, and Marc Bonilla, to name a few, and you'll start to get the picture.

Say, did I just rattle off a list of prog guitarists?!

The only guys that might fit in the shredder category that I still like are Al Di Meola and John McLaughlin. They were shredders before shredders. Even Buckethead, who's not really a "shredder," plays more interesting stuff than the average prog-metal shredder guy (Petrucci, yawn).

[Deb]

I personally don't consider theory (knowledge or lack of) a measure of technical prowess... whether playing a mixolydian scale or a blues scale, ultimately it comes down to what the I hear... not what I see... even if it is pretty amazing to watch sometimes...

Definitely. Coming from somebody who knows nothing about guitar playing, technicality, etc. The only thing I can judge on is if I like what I hear. And I have no idea how technical this solo is or what........but it is absolutely one of my faves......just love PG's solo in Undertow ~ (2:20) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHGv5FCS2j8

BTW Matt, Undertow......I believe is one of PG's....not a bad song, eh? I've said it before, IMO they could be better known for songwriting if EM and PG did most of it. Almost all my fave Big songs are the ones EM and/or PG had most of the writing credit on.

[Ehwmatt]

I'm with ya man. I listen to some prog too. And prog fans tend to be pretty nerdy and/or snooty about this type of stuff. I'm not. There's plenty of absolute shit in that genre, regardless of how technically sound the players might be.

Yet here you are discussing the finer technical aspects of Gilbert's and Schon's "technique."

What does the "absolute shit in that genre" have to do with your discussion? That goes for any genre.

Personally, I stopped giving a fuck how many notes a guitarist could cram into a bar umpteen years ago. I listened to select guitarists belonging to the "shredder" or guitar virtuoso genre in the 80s/early 90s. Some of that stuff, like Vinnie Moore's Time Odyssey is very good (granted, that album sounds less like a shredder album than many others, and pre-Dream Theater Jordan Rudess is on it). Some of it is shameless wankery. It all starts to sound the same. Compare that undesired aftereffect to the wonderfully emotive playing of guys like Steve Hackett, Andy Latimer, David Gilmour, Kerry Livgren, Steve Howe, and Marc Bonilla, to name a few, and you'll start to get the picture.

Say, did I just rattle off a list of prog guitarists?!

The only guys that might fit in the shredder category that I still like are Al Di Meola and John McLaughlin. They were shredders before shredders. Even Buckethead, who's not really a "shredder," plays more interesting stuff than the average prog-metal shredder guy (Petrucci, yawn).

RIght, and I'm discussing said "finer aspects" because people who don't play guitar asked me to! If you look back, I simply originally agreed with Deb that on a purely objective, technical level, Gilbert is superior to Schon. There's no debate there. I'm honestly not interested in dissecting guitarists' techniques unless people ask me to. It doesn't make a difference to my enjoyment (or lack thereof) of the given music/song.

As far as what the "absolute shit" has to do in the prog genre. Well, as you said, there's a lot of crappy shredder types in prog who prog nerds would heil as "technical" while simultaneously looking down on players from the AOR genre because of the stereotypes attached to this genre. The more perceptive prog fans, however, do recognize how much certain AOR players like Neal and Lukather bring to the table.

[verslibre]

As far as what the "absolute shit" has to do in the prog genre. Well, as you said, there's a lot of crappy shredder types in prog who prog nerds would heil as "technical" while simultaneously looking down on players from the AOR genre because of the stereotypes attached to this genre. The more perceptive prog fans, however, do recognize how much certain AOR players like Neal and Lukather bring to the table.

The more perceptive prog fans I know like and listen to lots of non-prog stuff, and wouldn't, with a couple exceptions, take a crap on a guy like Steve Lukather. He's a universally respected musician.

I think you're thinking of prog-metal guys. None of the guitarists I mentioned play in prog-metal groups, though.

[conversationpc]

Compare that undesired aftereffect to the wonderfully emotive playing of guys like Steve Hackett, Andy Latimer, David Gilmour, Kerry Livgren, Steve Howe, and Marc Bonilla, to name a few, and you'll start to get the picture.

I'm glad to hear someone else mention Kerry Livgren, one of my favorite guitarists.

The only guys that might fit in the shredder category that I still like are Al Di Meola and John McLaughlin. They were shredders before shredders. Even Buckethead, who's not really a "shredder," plays more interesting stuff than the average prog-metal shredder guy (Petrucci, yawn).

Ummm...Petrucci is awesome and certainly far from being just a shredder. Check this out... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qWq4UlRP6A