Tantra

[Jeremey]

I was listening to Eclipse in the gym for a change of pace, wanted something heavier with guitars but not quite Judas Priest. Anyway, suddenly "Tantra" comes on and holy shit if it doesn't sound like a song that should be on the Aladdin soundtrack. Anyone else get that vibe from that song? Pineda has a real "Grobanesque" quality to his voice in some ways but on this song all of the elements just fell into place - I absolutely had the image of Aladdin and princess Jasmine flying around on a big ass carpet.

Maybe it's just me...

[Don]

I was listening to Eclipse in the gym for a change of pace, wanted something heavier with guitars but not quite Judas Priest. Anyway, suddenly "Tantra" comes on and holy shit if it doesn't sound like a song that should be on the Aladdin soundtrack. Anyone else get that vibe from that song? Pineda has a real "Grobanesque" quality to his voice in some ways but on this song all of the elements just fell into place - I absolutely had the image of Aladdin and princess Jasmine flying around on a big ass carpet.

Maybe it's just me...

No, Many reviews from different blogs on the net have stated the same, though some have also alluded to it as something you might hear at the main street theater. Since many Disney animations have made the jump to Broadway, I guess both observations could be viewed as one and the same.

Viewing Tantra as something contributing to that genre, I personally think I Stand Alone is the better song.

[DK23]

No, you're not alone. As soon as my brother heard it that's the exact movie he thought about.

And now because he mentioned it, I can't stop thinking of Aladdin at the start.

[Rick]

I love that song. I never made that connection, but I probably will now.

[Archetype]

I was listening to Eclipse in the gym for a change of pace, wanted something heavier with guitars but not quite Judas Priest. Anyway, suddenly "Tantra" comes on and holy shit if it doesn't sound like a song that should be on the Aladdin soundtrack. Anyone else get that vibe from that song? Pineda has a real "Grobanesque" quality to his voice in some ways but on this song all of the elements just fell into place - I absolutely had the image of Aladdin and princess Jasmine flying around on a big ass carpet.

Maybe it's just me...

A friend of mine listened to Tantra and remarked that it definitely belongs in a Disney movie

[Jeremey]

Yeah, it reminded me VERY specifically of that movie for some reason. Like all "Arabian Nights" and crap. I think it has that very dated early 90's animated movie feel to it, and the subject matter just kind of fits the themes of Aladdin. Unlike "I Stand Alone," which, though it was from an animated movie, has a more timeless feel to it, and I don't really connect it to an animated movie...Which I think has a lot to do with David Foster's production than anything else. But also Pineda's vocal, which is amazing from a technical standpoint, has a very generic and stale feel to it that allows the song itself to kind of have that faceless early 90's animated movie vibe to it.

Deep analysis, I know, LOL....

[RedWingFan]

I had to pull this up on youtube to revisit it. Thanks for reminding me of the best $10 I never spent!

While listening to the free stream of the cd, I now remember that this song was the "EPIC" ball sucking song among other songs that merely sucked!

[steveo777]

I had to pull this up on youtube to revisit it. Thanks for reminding me of the best $10 I never spent!

While listening to the free stream of the cd, I now remember that this song was the "EPIC" ball sucking song among other songs that merely sucked!

As they say, opinions are like assholes.............but I'm not calling you one.

[annie89509]

As I have said before, this is my favorite song on the album. Definitely have a Broadway, show tune, feel to me. And Arnel's vocals are outstanding, his finest performance of all (imo). I think Journey was going for Mother, Father... on this one.

[Navarro]

I was listening to Eclipse in the gym for a change of pace, wanted something heavier with guitars but not quite Judas Priest. Anyway, suddenly "Tantra" comes on and holy shit if it doesn't sound like a song that should be on the Aladdin soundtrack. Anyone else get that vibe from that song? Pineda has a real "Grobanesque" quality to his voice in some ways but on this song all of the elements just fell into place - I absolutely had the image of Aladdin and princess Jasmine flying around on a big ass carpet.

Maybe it's just me...

No, it's not just you, but I was thinking more Lion King myself. Shamefully enough, I really like the song and on the right day and mood Eclipse in general. Neal needs to temper some of his shredding. His style of unsynchronized, pentatonic based fast playing is great in short bursts, but not for extended periods. It takes away from Eclipse overall, IMO. I do like some of the heavier riffs though.

[The_Noble_Cause]

When it came to weighing in on Journey, you were always one of the most articulate posters on MR, Jeremey.
Any thoughts on Eclipse overall? It could use some stronger hooks, but I think its a solid release. Arrival is still prolly the best post-Perry work.

[The_Noble_Cause]

The intro to the song sounds very Disney. There's almost a cartoony synth raindrop/plucking sound effect at the start intermixed with Cain's keys, but once Neal takes over, it sounds like Journey. Like Winds of March and Mother, Father, this is a melodic ballad unafraid to defy boy/girl bubblegum pop conventions. Maybe a little pompous lyrically, but the band went for something different and grand, and for the most part, succeeded. At least I think so.

[Jeremey]

The intro to the song sounds very Disney. There's almost a cartoony synth raindrop/plucking sound effect at the start intermixed with Cain's keys, but once Neal takes over, it sounds like Journey. Like Winds of March and Mother, Father, this is a melodic ballad unafraid to defy boy/girl bubblegum pop conventions. Maybe a little pompous lyrically, but the band went for something different and grand, and for the most part, succeeded. At least I think so.

It's not so much the piano intro/plucked strings that makes me feel that way about the song. I'm pretty sure it's the breathless wonderment that Pineda brings to the first line with that lyric, "One light shining bright, made from many colors..." with that delivery and melody and lyric, it all just is too much high school chorus/Disney for my tastes. I sang so many arrangements of songs like that in high school chorus, arranged for Soprano/Alto/Tenor/Bass. That's very likely what they were going after with that song and so I would say, congrats, it's done very well. But that style of song is also very dated, and if you bop over to iTunes and listen to the various clips of "A Whole New World," it's very, very similar in style and production.

Like I said, just a matter of taste I guess. Although I personally find little similarity to "Mother Father" with "Tantra," I do see the theatrical aspects of both songs. But to draw comparisons to both songs, "Mother Father" is like "Gethsemane" whereas "Tantra" would be like "Music Of The Night." I have to be careful critiquing things publicly anymore lest anyone swoop in and ask how I dare judge other people's music when my own songs suck, or critique Pineda's voice when my own voice is lacking...But as far as Eclipse as a whole goes....just my generic opinion is it's a good hard rock record with lots of riffs, but very little in the way of memorable hooks. I just listened to the whole thing yesterday and I can't sing back a single melody (not even Tantra) from memory on the CD. I do enjoy it as background music when I'm in the mood for heavier guitars.

[Jana]

It's the intro and outro that truly make it sound like Lion King to me and should have been left off the song. The main body of the song I love and Arnel's vocals on it are stunning. It isn't a rock song, though. Definitely more theatrical.

[Ehwmatt]

The intro to the song sounds very Disney. There's almost a cartoony synth raindrop/plucking sound effect at the start intermixed with Cain's keys, but once Neal takes over, it sounds like Journey. Like Winds of March and Mother, Father, this is a melodic ballad unafraid to defy boy/girl bubblegum pop conventions. Maybe a little pompous lyrically, but the band went for something different and grand, and for the most part, succeeded. At least I think so.

It's not so much the piano intro/plucked strings that makes me feel that way about the song. I'm pretty sure it's the breathless wonderment that Pineda brings to the first line with that lyric, "One light shining bright, made from many colors..." with that delivery and melody and lyric, it all just is too much high school chorus/Disney for my tastes. I sang so many arrangements of songs like that in high school chorus, arranged for Soprano/Alto/Tenor/Bass. That's very likely what they were going after with that song and so I would say, congrats, it's done very well. But that style of song is also very dated, and if you bop over to iTunes and listen to the various clips of "A Whole New World," it's very, very similar in style and production.

Like I said, just a matter of taste I guess. Although I personally find little similarity to "Mother Father" with "Tantra," I do see the theatrical aspects of both songs. But to draw comparisons to both songs, "Mother Father" is like "Gethsemane" whereas "Tantra" would be like "Music Of The Night." I have to be careful critiquing things publicly anymore lest anyone swoop in and ask how I dare judge other people's music when my own songs suck, or critique Pineda's voice when my own voice is lacking...But as far as Eclipse as a whole goes....just my generic opinion is it's a good hard rock record with lots of riffs, but very little in the way of memorable hooks. I just listened to the whole thing yesterday and I can't sing back a single melody (not even Tantra) from memory on the CD. I do enjoy it as background music when I'm in the mood for heavier guitars.

I mostly appreciate Tantra because of Neal's work on that song. That's Neal at his best, a rarity these days.

I don't mind a little pomp or cheese, so that part of it really doesn't bother me.

My opinion about the album's hooks hasn't changed much since last year: I think most of the songs needed a critical outside ear or another writer. There are a few songs that are damn close to being pretty solid (albeit different than the usual Journey mold for the most part), but they seem to fall a little flat with strange prechoruses or strange changes in the melody/chord progressions in the chorus.

For example, I still think the Anything is Possible (my 2nd fave on the album after Resonate) chorus starts great with the "If you can see" opening harmony line and Neal chording out a lead around a D chord way up on the fretboard. Up to that point, you have a really great song: vintage Neal lead, some nice upbeat Cain pianos in the Arrival vein, a nice bouncy verse with a great, major-key/positive feeling melody, and a few seconds of what sounds like a trademark Journey soaring chorus. But then, the "how you imagine your life" line is cramped lyrically (and this time, through no fault of Arnel's) and the chord change just sucks the air out of the song.

I think a third writer and/or good outside ear/producer/engineer etc would have been able to offer some invaluable help to these kinds of moments.

So, what's the unfortunate upshot of all this? haven't listened to Eclipse at all since last summer, probably circa early July. That's far worse staying power than even Revelation had.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Well stated, by both Matt and J. As far as lacking melody, "Someone" and "Anything is Possible" are probably the catchiest tunes on the cd. I strongle agree that a third writer is needed at this point. As a Neal fan, I don't mind an indulgent jamfest like "Human Feel", but many of the songs are a step down from the glossy arena rock heights on "Arrival". I still believe that the new lineup(s) have yet to write a song as good or better as "Higher Place". Tunes like "Edge of the Moment" and "Human Feel" carve out a new niche in the Journey cannon. They are so guitar driven that it's almost like a Neal instrumental set to lyrics. Either way, ya gotta give the band credit for continuing to put out new product, when other bands (TOTO, Styx) choose not to.

[Eric]

Well stated, by both Matt and J. As far as lacking melody, "Someone" and "Anything is Possible" are probably the catchiest tunes on the cd. I strongle agree that a third writer is needed at this point. As a Neal fan, I don't mind an indulgent jamfest like "Human Feel", but many of the songs are a step down from the glossy arena rock heights on "Arrival". I still believe that the new lineup(s) have yet to write a song as good or better as "Higher Place". Tunes like "Edge of the Moment" and "Human Feel" carve out a new niche in the Journey cannon. They are so guitar driven that it's almost like a Neal instrumental set to lyrics. Either way, ya gotta give the band credit for continuing to put out new product, when other bands (TOTO, Styx) choose not to.

Edge of the Moment is my favorite (along with the end of She's a Mystery). I like it more and more each time I listen to it.

[Jeremey]

I mostly appreciate Tantra because of Neal's work on that song. That's Neal at his best, a rarity these days.

I don't mind a little pomp or cheese, so that part of it really doesn't bother me.

My opinion about the album's hooks hasn't changed much since last year: I think most of the songs needed a critical outside ear or another writer. There are a few songs that are damn close to being pretty solid (albeit different than the usual Journey mold for the most part), but they seem to fall a little flat with strange prechoruses or strange changes in the melody/chord progressions in the chorus.

For example, I still think the Anything is Possible (my 2nd fave on the album after Resonate) chorus starts great with the "If you can see" opening harmony line and Neal chording out a lead around a D chord way up on the fretboard. Up to that point, you have a really great song: vintage Neal lead, some nice upbeat Cain pianos in the Arrival vein, a nice bouncy verse with a great, major-key/positive feeling melody, and a few seconds of what sounds like a trademark Journey soaring chorus. But then, the "how you imagine your life" line is cramped lyrically (and this time, through no fault of Arnel's) and the chord change just sucks the air out of the song.

I think a third writer and/or good outside ear/producer/engineer etc would have been able to offer some invaluable help to these kinds of moments.

So, what's the unfortunate upshot of all this? haven't listened to Eclipse at all since last summer, probably circa early July. That's far worse staying power than even Revelation had.

I was listening to "Anything Is Possible" after re-listening to "Tantra" for any semblance of hook or memorable chorus and the song kind of drifted into the background. After what seemed like 10 minutes I found myself listening again and thought "Holy crap, is this still the same song?" Meaning, geez, if you're going to make epic songs, you really need to have some kind of memorable chorus or hook to it. I realize that AIP kind of has that element to it, but as Matt mentioned, it's a forced and cramped chorus that just seems generic to me. I found that with the majority of the songs on the CD. The closest songs to having anything memorable to them (I can remember and sing the chorus right now without having to go back and listen) is Edge Of The Moment and Resonate, which I can't listen to without the mental image of Schon and Salahi rolling around in the surf.

Honestly I think Journey WANTED to make songs that were memorable and had hooks, and it just fell short on most of the CD. I can't imagine that Cain and Schon forgot the basic principles of good songwriting, and just decided to make epic guitar songs that went on for 6 or 7 minutes with no "resonance" (ha) to the material. Take "Tantra," for example...For that kind of magical, overproduced dramatic ballad, there's just GOT to be a hook to the song or it's nothing but a collection of lyrical ideas that don't make their point. Especially when you are using very familiar melodic themes, you've got to be able to take something away from the song...But I can't hum anything that resembles a chorus. I know it's there, it just lacks the hook that keeps a song with you...It's just empty calories, LOL. It also seemed to me that the vocal melodies were written by Cain with a generic singer in mind, and then "produced" by making Pineda basically reproduce the melodies as they were written without allowing the personality of the singer to be involved in making the song. It's really hard to describe, but to draw a mental image, consider Cain bringing Perry the melody of "Faithfully," and saying, here's the words and the song. What Perry did with the song is what makes it a timeless and classic track...He took the song and poured his heart into it, and made the melody his own. Now imagine "Faithfully" as it may have been had Cain written the melody and handed it to a singer to record, playing the melody for the singer on a piano note for note and making sure that singer sang the material exactly as Cain wrote it. That to me is a nagging feeling I get when I listen to a lot of the material on "Eclipse." Pineda is vocally amazing and pristine on it, but it seems to me performances like if an actor was given a libretto for a musical theatre role, and they learned it and worked it over and over again until they could perform that part exactly as written.

So I guess there's my elaboration on my thoughts on Eclipse, LOL...Again, just personal opinion and everyone takes something different away from a musical experience so I fully appreciate those who think it's an amazing work.

[Yoda]

IMHO, Resonate is by far the catchiest and best song on Eclipse. I won't watch the video because I know the video will ruin the song for me. I'm not much of a fan of Tantra, but I definitely hear the Disney vibe coming from it. Something about Edge of the Moment bothers me. Something about the chorus...just seems forced or something. I can't quite put my finger on it.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I mostly appreciate Tantra because of Neal's work on that song. That's Neal at his best, a rarity these days.

I don't mind a little pomp or cheese, so that part of it really doesn't bother me.

My opinion about the album's hooks hasn't changed much since last year: I think most of the songs needed a critical outside ear or another writer. There are a few songs that are damn close to being pretty solid (albeit different than the usual Journey mold for the most part), but they seem to fall a little flat with strange prechoruses or strange changes in the melody/chord progressions in the chorus.

For example, I still think the Anything is Possible (my 2nd fave on the album after Resonate) chorus starts great with the "If you can see" opening harmony line and Neal chording out a lead around a D chord way up on the fretboard. Up to that point, you have a really great song: vintage Neal lead, some nice upbeat Cain pianos in the Arrival vein, a nice bouncy verse with a great, major-key/positive feeling melody, and a few seconds of what sounds like a trademark Journey soaring chorus. But then, the "how you imagine your life" line is cramped lyrically (and this time, through no fault of Arnel's) and the chord change just sucks the air out of the song.

I think a third writer and/or good outside ear/producer/engineer etc would have been able to offer some invaluable help to these kinds of moments.

So, what's the unfortunate upshot of all this? haven't listened to Eclipse at all since last summer, probably circa early July. That's far worse staying power than even Revelation had.

I was listening to "Anything Is Possible" after re-listening to "Tantra" for any semblance of hook or memorable chorus and the song kind of drifted into the background. After what seemed like 10 minutes I found myself listening again and thought "Holy crap, is this still the same song?" Meaning, geez, if you're going to make epic songs, you really need to have some kind of memorable chorus or hook to it. I realize that AIP kind of has that element to it, but as Matt mentioned, it's a forced and cramped chorus that just seems generic to me. I found that with the majority of the songs on the CD. The closest songs to having anything memorable to them (I can remember and sing the chorus right now without having to go back and listen) is Edge Of The Moment and Resonate, which I can't listen to without the mental image of Schon and Salahi rolling around in the surf.

Honestly I think Journey WANTED to make songs that were memorable and had hooks, and it just fell short on most of the CD. I can't imagine that Cain and Schon forgot the basic principles of good songwriting, and just decided to make epic guitar songs that went on for 6 or 7 minutes with no "resonance" (ha) to the material. Take "Tantra," for example...For that kind of magical, overproduced dramatic ballad, there's just GOT to be a hook to the song or it's nothing but a collection of lyrical ideas that don't make their point. Especially when you are using very familiar melodic themes, you've got to be able to take something away from the song...But I can't hum anything that resembles a chorus. I know it's there, it just lacks the hook that keeps a song with you...It's just empty calories, LOL. It also seemed to me that the vocal melodies were written by Cain with a generic singer in mind, and then "produced" by making Pineda basically reproduce the melodies as they were written without allowing the personality of the singer to be involved in making the song. It's really hard to describe, but to draw a mental image, consider Cain bringing Perry the melody of "Faithfully," and saying, here's the words and the song. What Perry did with the song is what makes it a timeless and classic track...He took the song and poured his heart into it, and made the melody his own. Now imagine "Faithfully" as it may have been had Cain written the melody and handed it to a singer to record, playing the melody for the singer on a piano note for note and making sure that singer sang the material exactly as Cain wrote it. That to me is a nagging feeling I get when I listen to a lot of the material on "Eclipse." Pineda is vocally amazing and pristine on it, but it seems to me performances like if an actor was given a libretto for a musical theatre role, and they learned it and worked it over and over again until they could perform that part exactly as written.

So I guess there's my elaboration on my thoughts on Eclipse, LOL...Again, just personal opinion and everyone takes something different away from a musical experience so I fully appreciate those who think it's an amazing work.

Thanks for finally sharing your thoughts, J. Do you like Revelation better? Rev has more hooky immediate choruses but plays it very safe.

[RedWingFan]

Either way, ya gotta give the band credit for continuing to put out new product, when other bands (TOTO, Styx) choose not to.

Have you heard Night Ranger's "Somewhere In California" TNC? Just wondering what your thoughts were of it.

[Don]

Either way, ya gotta give the band credit for continuing to put out new product, when other bands (TOTO, Styx) choose not to.

Have you heard Night Ranger's "Somewhere In California" TNC? Just wondering what your thoughts were of it.

SIC sounds like what I thought Eclipse would sound like after all of Neal's talk about rocking out.

Ritual is the only song on Eclipse that fits the mold. It STILL sounds like a Blades song even after the dozens of times I have listened to it.

[yandtguy]

Well, I know when I put on a Journey CD, I want to be reminded of show tunes............

[Gideon]

'Tantra' has really grown on me. Great vocals, great instruments, great tune... bar the outro.

[yandtguy]

The radio edit of "Human Feel" is the catchiest, punchiest song on the album. Don't know that there is a place for it on US radio today, but it's definitely the catchiest song on Eclipse. There are several hooks (Neal's melodic leads, the "Rise Up" bridge and outtro, Deen's drum pattern, a catchy chorus, Jon's organ riff). It's ridiculous that they stretched it out to 6:43 on the CD. A re-arranged "She's A Mystery" might play at AC radio. An edit of "Anything Is Possible" at just under 4 minutes (the last 1:15 wouldn't be missed) should have been the big single though. It shares the same optimistic outlook as "Don't Stop Believing," would play at AC radio, and it has a decent chorus that should have had crowds singing along in concert.

[Gideon]

AIP is all right, but way too vanilla for me compared with the rest of the album. I preferred the direction they were going in with Eclipse; leave the sincere/saccharine quasi-ballads in the past with the man who did them best, Perry. Arnel may not be as good of a singer, but he has a pretty dynamic voice that is geared towards heavier tunes and the band could use more songs like 'Resonate' and 'Chain of Love'.

You're on the mark with 'Human Feel', though. The radio edit is great and lyrically, it's some of Jon Cain's best work.

[yandtguy]

I agree that "Anything Is Possible" isn't very dynamic, but it doesn't have to be to be a single. The only hope Journey has of getting on the radio is with a ballad or mid-tempo song at this point in their careers, unless they try the crossover thing like Bon Jovi or Def Leppard, and do a duet with somebody outside of their genre. AIP is the only song on Eclipse that would be remotely possible to get on the airwaves in the US.

[Don]

I agree that "Anything Is Possible" isn't very dynamic, but it doesn't have to be to be a single. The only hope Journey has of getting on the radio is with a ballad or mid-tempo song at this point in their careers, unless they try the crossover thing like Bon Jovi or Def Leppard, and do a duet with somebody outside of their genre. AIP is the only song on Eclipse that would be remotely possible to get on the airwaves in the US.

AIP did get on the airwaves. It was on the A/C charts for six weeks despite not getting played even once during the tour. The band was too busy trying to make COH the next DSB.

[Gideon]

I agree that "Anything Is Possible" isn't very dynamic, but it doesn't have to be to be a single. The only hope Journey has of getting on the radio is with a ballad or mid-tempo song at this point in their careers, unless they try the crossover thing like Bon Jovi or Def Leppard, and do a duet with somebody outside of their genre. AIP is the only song on Eclipse that would be remotely possible to get on the airwaves in the US.

I disagree, actually. I think that if Journey and management had put their collective might behind a radio edit of 'Resonate', they might have seen some airtime. When Eclipse was released, I scoured the web as fervently as Don for reviews of the album and from the dozens that I read, a pretty consistent remark was that 'Resonate' was the album's strongest, most interesting track. Snip the first 50 seconds of scratching and Gregorian chanting, and that song was catchy, heavy, and modern enough to get radio play I think.

[Onestepper]

None of those songs on Eclipse were ever going to sniff air play. And I truly believe that the band (NS) knew that, and was okay with it. This was his project. I don't think it had anything to do with commercial success, other than giving them an excuse to go out and tour again.