Some Perspective on Perry's Voce & Relationship W/The Ba

[Arkansas]

Assuming that the Perry tours were as extreme as portrayed, then the Augeri tours were probably pretty much the same. Journey at the time tried to re-live, TOO MUCH, of their Perry years. And that caused the demise of SA's voice and health. But to give somewhat equal time, I'm sure that Augeri labored-on, thinking that he could overcome. And especially with newer technology, they all bought-in to DC sub'ing vocals as necessary, not to mention, doing the MilliVanilli thing. I'm not excusing it, I'm just understanding it.

It's all big business, no less. Kinda like pro sports, how many football players have relied on excessive taping and pain shots just to go out and contribute? It happens everyday in the big money world.

Interesting. There have been many comments about getting duped by Journey for some lipsync thing. Anybody want to sue an NFL team for juicing? Find an old running back or a linebacker that will admit to getting 'shot-up' before a game, and then sue that team for putting on a bad show. Isn't it the same exact thing? I mean, Sunday football wasn't always a pure athletic performance, if the team Doc masked all physical problems. Or even more specifically, sue a running back for getting a B-12 shot (whatever they called it?) before a game. Anybody remember 'North Dallas Forty'?

Point is, when there are gobs of cash on the line, and someone has a physical problem, then they have to do whatever it takes to make the show.

Has there ever been any talk about what it takes to keep the arms and fingers functioning? I'd bet that most musicians have the same problems, other than voice. I mean, how do we know that NS or JC hasn't done 'something' to keep them in the show too?


later~

[steveo777]

I am not sure what I manipulated? I just read what what was posted, I have long thought that the
sheer demands of the touring schedule along with the internal pressures of the band is what brought Perry to his knees....from what I just read from J it seems he feels the same way.

Jeremey was offering an insightful commentary that was sympathetic to Steve's plight. At no point (that I saw) did he suggest or insinuate that Perry was somehow guiltless or blameless in what happened. The gist of his argument was that Perry didn't decide to run his voice into the shitter for the hell of it; that pressure from management and the band played a role in his decision to carry on recklessly.

Here are the facts: Perry, by his own admission, sought autonomy and began to adjust the "family" dynamic of the band from the moment he joined it. He (right or wrong) challenged the band's nominal leaders (Herbie, Neal & Gregg) creatively. He was a major songwriter, the band's face, and exercised a tremendous degree of control over the organization on every level.

The idea that he was somehow bullied, cowed, or raped into his predicament is utterly retarded and contradicts every single thing we know about Steve Perry who, for better or worse, was a man with vision and a formidable will.

Like Augeri said in his interview with Andrew in '08:

"(long pause) I'll tell you what - the unfortunate thing is that it comes down to the individual. I can never point a finger; you can't point a finger at anyone but yourself. So, if the schedule was grueling, then I didn't have the backbone to say, “Stop. I'm getting off the train.”"

All I see is Jeremey trying to remind people (possibly directed at me?) that there were circumstances, factors, pressures, and people involved in this beyond Steve Perry. All of which is true. But at the end of the day, it was still his choice.

Trying to separate Perry from culpability here is no different than trying to separate Neal, Jon, Ross, Deen, and Steve from the fiasco that was Tapegate. Uhhh, they had to lipsync! They had to defraud their customers!

It's bullshit and an insult to Jeremey's post.

But if I'm wrong Jeremey, please correct me.

In the end he did make the choice. He simply told the band to fuck off and the bridge was burned, never to be resurrected. That's where we stand today and why we have a new Journey. Duh! But, what would we have today had this never happened? What kind of music, songs and vocals?

[Gideon]

I know that you are the sane one here I am only a lowly Loon.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[Don]

Maybe this was part of what caused the animosity between Perry and Herbie. HH seemed to be taking big risks for maximum gains but to do that, the band had to run the schedule like they did during the pre-Escape era where they simply could not miss any shows or they would be penalized heavily by the promoters.

[steveo777]

I know that you are the sane one here I am only a lowly Loon.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Both of you have bats in the belfry.

[portland]

I know that you are the sane one here I am only a lowly Loon.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Now your kidding right?

[steveo777]

I know that you are the sane one here I am only a lowly Loon.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Now your kidding right?

Everything Giddy says is deliberate. One of the most honest people on MR.

[Jeremey]

Since I'm responding on my iPhone I can't quote properly so I won't try. But regarding Gideon's comment about the reason behind my post, it wasn't directed at anyone - I actually typed this as a reply to Matt & Bry's discussion about what touring has done to Steve's voice, and my original intent was to point out that it was very likely that the Dallas incident and the remaining leg of the tour was the specific cause of Perry's voice damage.

I didn't really set out to make Perry look like a saint and the band to look evil but that's certainly how it came out sounding LOL. I guess my diversion to that argument was initially showing how Perry continued to perform while injured, at the pressure of the band and their management, which is what happened, and I tied it into his later argument with the band about his hip as a backstory - where sometimes people just want to look at Perry walking away from touring in 87 and then refusing to tour in 97 as crazy Perry fucking with the band...when in actuality I believe he still resented the pressure to continue touring in 83 that damaged his voice.

[Gideon]

All I know is this has been the liveliest thread in a long time. I'm glad you posted what you posted and for whatever reason you posted it.

[Don]

Since I'm responding on my iPhone I can't quote properly so I won't try. But regarding Gideon's comment about the reason behind my post, it wasn't directed at anyone - I actually typed this as a reply to Matt & Bry's discussion about what touring has done to Steve's voice, and my original intent was to point out that it was very likely that the Dallas incident and the remaining leg of the tour was the specific cause of Perry's voice damage.

I didn't really set out to make Perry look like a saint and the band to look evil but that's certainly how it came out sounding LOL. I guess my diversion to that argument was initially showing how Perry continued to perform while injured, at the pressure of the band and their management, which is what happened, and I tied it into his later argument with the band about his hip as a backstory - where sometimes people just want to look at Perry walking away from touring in 87 and then refusing to tour in 97 as crazy Perry fucking with the band...when in actuality I believe he still resented the pressure to continue touring in 83 that damaged his voice.

No need to apologize Jeremey. I think everyone read in to it what they wanted to. Myself, I took it that Herbie put the screws in, basically saying if Perry didn't perform the band would lose a ton of cash and it was all going to be on him so man up and get out there, to hell with everything else.

[Arkansas]

Ya know, the fans crucify bands for abusing their singers. But really, the lead voice is only a part of the music. Why don't we overly-examine what it takes to play piano, drums, or guitars?

What if we found out that NS takes 'extra steps' to ensure he can play each night? Isn't that just as bad as aiding a voice? Like I implied previously, creating crutches for an individual part is nothing new.

Should we demand that NBA players not wear pads under their uniforms?
Should we demand that PGA players not tape their fingers, or wear pants? (Yes, it does help.)
Should the NFL or NHL ban anything that would make their games less physically taxing/painful?

How much difference is there between professional sports and professional entertainment? I guarantee you, that we pay more for sports than music. And most sports are more fake than 'the arts'. Yet we want to claim rights of public out-cry when we pay less to hear a few songs, when we often pay more to see some 'not-so-pure' athletic event.

Geez.


later~

[portland]

All I know is this has been the liveliest thread in a long time. I'm glad you posted what you posted and for whatever reason you posted it.

Nice little dust up, I have been home recovering from surgery was bored tonight and saw J's post....makes
me miss the good ole days!

[Jeremey]

Here's some real differences between Perry's situation and Augeri's with regard to the pressure of touring...

Perry initially didnt want as massive a tour as the Frontiers tour, and inevitably he agreed. Then when he was pressured to continue the tour after blowing out his voice (again, whatever that means), he agreed to that as well. It would have been nigh well impossible for Perry to have put his foot down at that point with the pressures that were on him. They were the biggest band in the world. The biggest band in the world. There's just no way I believe Perry had the will or even the power to buck management and the band at the time.

So after the tour schedule he was reluctant to agree to, and the last half he did on pills to mask the effects of a damaged voice, he sat back and realized "hey, everyone here got paid, and they can still play their fucking instrument! In the meantime, they got paid because I said alright I'll go and fuck up my voice so you all can get paid and all I have to show for it is this stack of money here that I really didn't need to begin with."

So it wasn't until THAT time that Perry really began to assert himself. He stood up to Herbie (on the band's behalf) when he tried to take control of the band in 85. I heard first hand from people still in Journey that they will always appreciate and respect Perry for standing up on behalf of the band when Herbie tried to change the arrangement and control of the band in his favor. And the ROR tour was nothing as intensive as the Frontiers tour. And there were canceled dates on that tour.

Augeri NEVER had that kind of clout with the band. Heudt have felt the very same pressure (although I have no idea why they toured so much from 98-06). That combined with the ease of those "crutches" Herbie alluded to and possibly a desire to just make more money on HIS part made it much more likely that Augeri would have never had the occasion to stand up and say "okay, I'm done for the next year."
"oh really? You saw what happened to Perry, let's just get Chalfant on the line, thank you Steve come again."

[Gideon]

All I know is this has been the liveliest thread in a long time. I'm glad you posted what you posted and for whatever reason you posted it.

Nice little dust up, I have been home recovering from surgery was bored tonight and saw J's post....makes
me miss the good ole days!

Definitely. It's been a while since the last time we did it, but was deliciously rough and aggressive. Next time we should roleplay....








.....you defend Neal and I'll defend Perry!

[steveo777]

All I know is this has been the liveliest thread in a long time. I'm glad you posted what you posted and for whatever reason you posted it.

Nice little dust up, I have been home recovering from surgery was bored tonight and saw J's post....makes
me miss the good ole days!

Hollie, I was gonna make a joke, but chose not to. Now, seriously, what happened and are you OK?

[Gideon]

Here's some real differences between Perry's situation and Augeri's with regard to the pressure of touring...

Perry initially didnt want as massive a tour as the Frontiers tour, and inevitably he agreed. Then when he was pressured to continue the tour after blowing out his voice (again, whatever that means), he agreed to that as well. It would have been nigh well impossible for Perry to have put his foot down at that point with the pressures that were on him. They were the biggest band in the world. The biggest band in the world. There's just no way I believe Perry had the will or even the power to buck management and the band at the time.

So after the tour schedule he was reluctant to agree to, and the last half he did on pills to mask the effects of a damaged voice, he sat back and realized "hey, everyone here got paid, and they can still play their fucking instrument! In the meantime, they got paid because I said alright I'll go and fuck up my voice so you all can get paid and all I have to show for it is this stack of money here that I really didn't need to begin with."

So it wasn't until THAT time that Perry really began to assert himself. He stood up to Herbie (on the band's behalf) when he tried to take control of the band in 85. I heard first hand from people still in Journey that they will always appreciate and respect Perry for standing up on behalf of the band when Herbie tried to change the arrangement and control of the band in his favor. And the ROR tour was nothing as intensive as the Frontiers tour. And there were canceled dates on that tour.

Augeri NEVER had that kind of clout with the band. Heudt have felt the very same pressure (although I have no idea why they toured so much from 98-06). That combined with the ease of those "crutches" Herbie alluded to and possibly a desire to just make more money on HIS part made it much more likely that Augeri would have never had the occasion to stand up and say "okay, I'm done for the next year."
"oh really? You saw what happened to Perry, let's just get Chalfant on the line, thank you Steve come again."

Ehh, I'm more than a little skeptical about this take, Jeremey. It really suggests that Perry was some sort of meek, crippled kitten before ROR and that doesn't mesh with what has been suggested or outright confirmed elsewhere.

[portland]

All I know is this has been the liveliest thread in a long time. I'm glad you posted what you posted and for whatever reason you posted it.

Nice little dust up, I have been home recovering from surgery was bored tonight and saw J's post....makes
me miss the good ole days!

Hollie, I was gonna make a joke, but chose not to. Now, seriously, what happened and are you OK?

Had a bit of a scare with a lump...it's out now with clear margins. No more treatment needed at this time. Thanks
for asking

[portland]

All I know is this has been the liveliest thread in a long time. I'm glad you posted what you posted and for whatever reason you posted it.

Nice little dust up, I have been home recovering from surgery was bored tonight and saw J's post....makes
me miss the good ole days!

Definitely. It's been a while since the last time we did it, but was deliciously rough and aggressive. Next time we should roleplay....








.....you defend Neal and I'll defend Perry!

I would rather die.....you can have Neal

[Jeremey]

Ya know, the fans crucify bands for abusing their singers. But really, the lead voice is only a part of the music. Why don't we overly-examine what it takes to play piano, drums, or guitars?

What if we found out that NS takes 'extra steps' to ensure he can play each night? Isn't that just as bad as aiding a voice? Like I implied previously, creating crutches for an individual part is nothing new.

Should we demand that NBA players not wear pads under their uniforms?
Should we demand that PGA players not tape their fingers, or wear pants? (Yes, it does help.)
Should the NFL or NHL ban anything that would make their games less physically taxing/painful?

How much difference is there between professional sports and professional entertainment? I guarantee you, that we pay more for sports than music. And most sports are more fake than 'the arts'. Yet we want to claim rights of public out-cry when we pay less to hear a few songs, when we often pay more to see some 'not-so-pure' athletic event.

Geez.


later~

I see your point - though I would mention that guitarists drummers and piano players play man made instruments - a singers instrument is their body, which is much more than having to take care of the fingers that PLAY the instrument. Instrumentalists DO undergo damage - drummers and guitarists have injuries and conditions that hinder their ability to play and they do have to be careful.

I agree people are much more critical of music than most other forms of entertainment and I can't for the life of me figure out why. Lots of people in 2012 don't even think artists should charge for their music these days, devaluing something that took months and possibly years of production and expenses to less than a cup of coffee. Yet they will fill internet forums and subreddits full of criticism and indignation about the latest record or single or performance of that artist. If someone would spend $7.50 on a movie ticket to "The Watch" but complains that they would "buy more music if it was like $2 for a CD or something," then I really don't need them as a "fan."

Crap, sidetracked again

[Jeremey]

I could be wrong Gideon, it is just speculation. I don't doubt that Perry may have been as difficult to deal with as any other "rock star," but I would be interested in any examples of him controlling or altering the direction and/or decisions of the band and their management prior to the Frontiers tour?

[Gideon]

I could be wrong Gideon, it is just speculation. I don't doubt that Perry may have been as difficult to deal with as any other "rock star," but I would be interested in any examples of him controlling or altering the direction and/or decisions of the band and their management prior to the Frontiers tour?

Give me 24 hours and (what will hopefully be by then) a faster internet connection. My rebuttal shall be swift and merciless!

[JohnH]

Thanks Jeremy, this was one of the most interesting things Ive ever seen here.

[Jeremey]

I could be wrong Gideon, it is just speculation. I don't doubt that Perry may have been as difficult to deal with as any other "rock star," but I would be interested in any examples of him controlling or altering the direction and/or decisions of the band and their management prior to the Frontiers tour?

Give me 24 hours and (what will hopefully be by then) a faster internet connection. My rebuttal shall be swift and merciless!

Awesome! =P

[Jeremey]

Thanks Jeremy, this was one of the most interesting things Ive ever seen here.

You bet John, thanks for reading and good luck!

[Arkansas]

Here's some real differences between Perry's situation and Augeri's with regard to the pressure of touring...

Perry initially didnt want as massive a tour as the Frontiers tour, and inevitably he agreed. Then when he was pressured to continue the tour after blowing out his voice (again, whatever that means), he agreed to that as well. It would have been nigh well impossible for Perry to have put his foot down at that point with the pressures that were on him. They were the biggest band in the world. The biggest band in the world. There's just no way I believe Perry had the will or even the power to buck management and the band at the time.

So after the tour schedule he was reluctant to agree to, and the last half he did on pills to mask the effects of a damaged voice, he sat back and realized "hey, everyone here got paid, and they can still play their fucking instrument! In the meantime, they got paid because I said alright I'll go and fuck up my voice so you all can get paid and all I have to show for it is this stack of money here that I really didn't need to begin with."

So it wasn't until THAT time that Perry really began to assert himself. He stood up to Herbie (on the band's behalf) when he tried to take control of the band in 85. I heard first hand from people still in Journey that they will always appreciate and respect Perry for standing up on behalf of the band when Herbie tried to change the arrangement and control of the band in his favor. And the ROR tour was nothing as intensive as the Frontiers tour. And there were canceled dates on that tour.

Augeri NEVER had that kind of clout with the band. Heudt have felt the very same pressure (although I have no idea why they toured so much from 98-06). That combined with the ease of those "crutches" Herbie alluded to and possibly a desire to just make more money on HIS part made it much more likely that Augeri would have never had the occasion to stand up and say "okay, I'm done for the next year."
"oh really? You saw what happened to Perry, let's just get Chalfant on the line, thank you Steve come again."

Ehh, I'm more than a little skeptical about this take, Jeremey. It really suggests that Perry was some sort of meek, crippled kitten before ROR and that doesn't mesh with what has been suggested or outright confirmed elsewhere.

I think this is exactly why they gave Perry 'the reins'. The band needed him more than radio needed the band. And that also explains why the band agreed to make themselves a three-piece (sans Valory and Smith). Perry may have been 'crippled' somehow, but at the time, the band & mgt too, knew that the only way to continue success, was with Perry. ROR more solidified Perry, than Perry solidified them. Make sense? I mean, without Perry producing, he may not have God-status. He'd just be considered their greatest singer, and not their owner - which many of us still think. In other words, the band was weak, and Perry capitalized...I'm sure with business & legal advice.

Augeri, on the other hand, never had this chance, since NS finally claimed control.

I think the smartest in this whole history is JC. He has all rights and creative control...without the gravity of being NS.


later~

[steveo777]

Here's some real differences between Perry's situation and Augeri's with regard to the pressure of touring...

Perry initially didnt want as massive a tour as the Frontiers tour, and inevitably he agreed. Then when he was pressured to continue the tour after blowing out his voice (again, whatever that means), he agreed to that as well. It would have been nigh well impossible for Perry to have put his foot down at that point with the pressures that were on him. They were the biggest band in the world. The biggest band in the world. There's just no way I believe Perry had the will or even the power to buck management and the band at the time.

So after the tour schedule he was reluctant to agree to, and the last half he did on pills to mask the effects of a damaged voice, he sat back and realized "hey, everyone here got paid, and they can still play their fucking instrument! In the meantime, they got paid because I said alright I'll go and fuck up my voice so you all can get paid and all I have to show for it is this stack of money here that I really didn't need to begin with."

So it wasn't until THAT time that Perry really began to assert himself. He stood up to Herbie (on the band's behalf) when he tried to take control of the band in 85. I heard first hand from people still in Journey that they will always appreciate and respect Perry for standing up on behalf of the band when Herbie tried to change the arrangement and control of the band in his favor. And the ROR tour was nothing as intensive as the Frontiers tour. And there were canceled dates on that tour.

Augeri NEVER had that kind of clout with the band. Heudt have felt the very same pressure (although I have no idea why they toured so much from 98-06). That combined with the ease of those "crutches" Herbie alluded to and possibly a desire to just make more money on HIS part made it much more likely that Augeri would have never had the occasion to stand up and say "okay, I'm done for the next year."
"oh really? You saw what happened to Perry, let's just get Chalfant on the line, thank you Steve come again."

Ehh, I'm more than a little skeptical about this take, Jeremey. It really suggests that Perry was some sort of meek, crippled kitten before ROR and that doesn't mesh with what has been suggested or outright confirmed elsewhere.

I think this is exactly why they gave Perry 'the reins'. The band needed him more than radio needed the band. And that also explains why the band agreed to make themselves a three-piece (sans Valory and Smith). Perry may have been 'crippled' somehow, but at the time, the band & mgt too, knew that the only way to continue success, was with Perry. ROR more solidified Perry, than Perry solidified them. Make sense? I mean, without Perry producing, he may not have God-status. He'd just be considered their greatest singer, and not their owner - which many of us still think. In other words, the band was weak, and Perry capitalized...I'm sure with business & legal advice.

Augeri, on the other hand, never had this chance, since NS finally claimed control.

I think the smartest in this whole history is JC. He has all rights and creative control...without the gravity of being NS.


later~

Interesting, but Perry had no where near the commercial success on his own, compared to him with Journey. That tells me that people viewed the entity of Journey as a meld of the musicians and the artist, not separately. Journey could not go out on the road without a singer anymore than Perry could succeed on the road without Journey. Steve did have a great guitarist that could give Neal a run for his money.

[slucero]

Here's some real differences between Perry's situation and Augeri's with regard to the pressure of touring...

Perry initially didnt want as massive a tour as the Frontiers tour, and inevitably he agreed. Then when he was pressured to continue the tour after blowing out his voice (again, whatever that means), he agreed to that as well. It would have been nigh well impossible for Perry to have put his foot down at that point with the pressures that were on him. They were the biggest band in the world. The biggest band in the world. There's just no way I believe Perry had the will or even the power to buck management and the band at the time.

So after the tour schedule he was reluctant to agree to, and the last half he did on pills to mask the effects of a damaged voice, he sat back and realized "hey, everyone here got paid, and they can still play their fucking instrument! In the meantime, they got paid because I said alright I'll go and fuck up my voice so you all can get paid and all I have to show for it is this stack of money here that I really didn't need to begin with."

So it wasn't until THAT time that Perry really began to assert himself. He stood up to Herbie (on the band's behalf) when he tried to take control of the band in 85. I heard first hand from people still in Journey that they will always appreciate and respect Perry for standing up on behalf of the band when Herbie tried to change the arrangement and control of the band in his favor. And the ROR tour was nothing as intensive as the Frontiers tour. And there were canceled dates on that tour.

Augeri NEVER had that kind of clout with the band. Heudt have felt the very same pressure (although I have no idea why they toured so much from 98-06). That combined with the ease of those "crutches" Herbie alluded to and possibly a desire to just make more money on HIS part made it much more likely that Augeri would have never had the occasion to stand up and say "okay, I'm done for the next year."
"oh really? You saw what happened to Perry, let's just get Chalfant on the line, thank you Steve come again."

Ehh, I'm more than a little skeptical about this take, Jeremey. It really suggests that Perry was some sort of meek, crippled kitten before ROR and that doesn't mesh with what has been suggested or outright confirmed elsewhere.

I think this is exactly why they gave Perry 'the reins'. The band needed him more than radio needed the band. And that also explains why the band agreed to make themselves a three-piece (sans Valory and Smith). Perry may have been 'crippled' somehow, but at the time, the band & mgt too, knew that the only way to continue success, was with Perry. ROR more solidified Perry, than Perry solidified them. Make sense? I mean, without Perry producing, he may not have God-status. He'd just be considered their greatest singer, and not their owner - which many of us still think. In other words, the band was weak, and Perry capitalized...I'm sure with business & legal advice.

Augeri, on the other hand, never had this chance, since NS finally claimed control.

I think the smartest in this whole history is JC. He has all rights and creative control...without the gravity of being NS.


later~

Interesting, but Perry had no where near the commercial success on his own, compared to him with Journey. That tells me that people viewed the entity of Journey as a meld of the musicians and the artist, not separately. Journey could not go out on the road without a singer anymore than Perry could succeed on the road without Journey. Steve did have a great guitarist that could give Neal a run for his money.

Journey's success had/has as much (I'd argue MORE) to do with the marketing machine Herbie assembled (specifically to push Journey), as it did/does with the musicians... (Herbie all but INVENTED a lot of what became standard marketing techniques for bands in the 80's)

Perry did not have that machine as a solo artist..

without the marketing machine.. Journey would likely have been a musically great, but unknown entity..

[steveo777]

Here's some real differences between Perry's situation and Augeri's with regard to the pressure of touring...

Perry initially didnt want as massive a tour as the Frontiers tour, and inevitably he agreed. Then when he was pressured to continue the tour after blowing out his voice (again, whatever that means), he agreed to that as well. It would have been nigh well impossible for Perry to have put his foot down at that point with the pressures that were on him. They were the biggest band in the world. The biggest band in the world. There's just no way I believe Perry had the will or even the power to buck management and the band at the time.

So after the tour schedule he was reluctant to agree to, and the last half he did on pills to mask the effects of a damaged voice, he sat back and realized "hey, everyone here got paid, and they can still play their fucking instrument! In the meantime, they got paid because I said alright I'll go and fuck up my voice so you all can get paid and all I have to show for it is this stack of money here that I really didn't need to begin with."

So it wasn't until THAT time that Perry really began to assert himself. He stood up to Herbie (on the band's behalf) when he tried to take control of the band in 85. I heard first hand from people still in Journey that they will always appreciate and respect Perry for standing up on behalf of the band when Herbie tried to change the arrangement and control of the band in his favor. And the ROR tour was nothing as intensive as the Frontiers tour. And there were canceled dates on that tour.

Augeri NEVER had that kind of clout with the band. Heudt have felt the very same pressure (although I have no idea why they toured so much from 98-06). That combined with the ease of those "crutches" Herbie alluded to and possibly a desire to just make more money on HIS part made it much more likely that Augeri would have never had the occasion to stand up and say "okay, I'm done for the next year."
"oh really? You saw what happened to Perry, let's just get Chalfant on the line, thank you Steve come again."

Ehh, I'm more than a little skeptical about this take, Jeremey. It really suggests that Perry was some sort of meek, crippled kitten before ROR and that doesn't mesh with what has been suggested or outright confirmed elsewhere.

I think this is exactly why they gave Perry 'the reins'. The band needed him more than radio needed the band. And that also explains why the band agreed to make themselves a three-piece (sans Valory and Smith). Perry may have been 'crippled' somehow, but at the time, the band & mgt too, knew that the only way to continue success, was with Perry. ROR more solidified Perry, than Perry solidified them. Make sense? I mean, without Perry producing, he may not have God-status. He'd just be considered their greatest singer, and not their owner - which many of us still think. In other words, the band was weak, and Perry capitalized...I'm sure with business & legal advice.

Augeri, on the other hand, never had this chance, since NS finally claimed control.

I think the smartest in this whole history is JC. He has all rights and creative control...without the gravity of being NS.


later~

Interesting, but Perry had no where near the commercial success on his own, compared to him with Journey. That tells me that people viewed the entity of Journey as a meld of the musicians and the artist, not separately. Journey could not go out on the road without a singer anymore than Perry could succeed on the road without Journey. Steve did have a great guitarist that could give Neal a run for his money.

Journey's success had/has as much (I'd argue MORE) to do with the marketing machine Herbie assembled (specifically to push Journey), as it did/does with the musicians... (Herbie all but INVENTED a lot of what became standard marketing techniques for bands in the 80's)

Perry did not have that machine as a solo artist..

without the marketing machine.. Journey would likely have been a musically great, but unknown entity..

I think we both said the same things, except the last part, which I find interesting. So, if I understand this correctly, Journey could be all that it was, if it had another Herbie driving the "machine". That's intriguing. With the current success on the road it almost makes me wonder if what they have is really all they want or need. The price of a decent seat at a concert.....or a beer has never been higher. (Thanks Azoff!) Who is the unabashed capitalist?

[steveo777]

This was the Voice where I grew up....in 1971. He and Elvis were competitors. Neil won.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtd8stZP ... re=related

Cool find for me.

[texafana]

Bands still made most of their money from touring, so I'll give him props for keeping the green flowing as long as he could. But there is no doubt...he could have controlled the number of shows he was willing to play before the tour was even planned. The fact that he even agreed to all those shows was just ridiculous. Plus, to this day I have no idea why they just didn't tune down a half or even a full step for live shows, big deal.... would have probably saved his voice.