So.....

[Pelata]

Eclipse may have been a non-commercial cd but it was pandering. Why else would Journey detune to such levels with their lyrics sending a different message? It's either pandering or incompetence. Either way. it's unacceptable. Go listen to Night Ranger's latest and tell me it's not killer.

Night Ranger enjoys being Night Ranger. Neal does not enjoy being shackled to the Perry era.

Neal never wanted to be "Open Arms" or "DSB"...he wanted to be a guitar hero...a "real rocker"...he never wanted to be happy, pop-rock guy. Eclipse was his attempt to reinvent Journey into a harder edged, guitar-intensive, slightly progressive Rock band. It's his modern take on the pre-Perry years, IMO.

[Eric]

Dude, I think exactly that and here's why. The detuned, drop D, and full step down with C on the low string gives songs a very dark, more evil tone. That is not Journey and has never been Journey. Journey has been soring tenor vocals with songs in keys the provide a positive vibe. Eclipse was not that. Eclipse had detuned guitars giving the music a very dark tone. If you want a dark tone, go listen to another band. This is not Journey's brand and I don't think it is now. I think they missed the mark with their core audience that is looking for a positive tune. Journey has been, and continues to be my favorite band. However, Eclipse was a detuned POS that sucked. I listened to City of Hope for the first time and I was so pissed I turned the cd off. The key of the song does not agree with the message I think the are trying to deliver. It was pandering plain and simple. Eclipse was a turd and has zero relevance a year after it's release.

Eclipse may have been a non-commercial cd but it was pandering. Why else would Journey detune to such levels with their lyrics sending a different message? It's either pandering or incompetence. Either way. it's unacceptable. Go listen to Night Ranger's latest and tell me it's not killer.

It doesn't get more KILLER than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HEO8bOAhIU

[The_Noble_Cause]

Dude, I think exactly that and here's why. The detuned, drop D, and full step down with C on the low string gives songs a very dark, more evil tone. That is not Journey and has never been Journey. Journey has been soring tenor vocals with songs in keys the provide a positive vibe. Eclipse was not that. Eclipse had detuned guitars giving the music a very dark tone. If you want a dark tone, go listen to another band. This is not Journey's brand and I don't think it is now. I think they missed the mark with their core audience that is looking for a positive tune. Journey has been, and continues to be my favorite band. However, Eclipse was a detuned POS that sucked. I listened to City of Hope for the first time and I was so pissed I turned the cd off. The key of the song does not agree with the message I think the are trying to deliver. It was pandering plain and simple. Eclipse was a turd and has zero relevance a year after it's release.

Eclipse may have been a non-commercial cd but it was pandering. Why else would Journey detune to such levels with their lyrics sending a different message? It's either pandering or incompetence. Either way. it's unacceptable. Go listen to Night Ranger's latest and tell me it's not killer.

Some Eclipse songs have a darker edge (see Chain of Love, Resonate, or Edge of the Moment). In many respects it's alot like side B of Frontiers, which has always been a fav of Neals. The darker experimental material outweighs the poppy uptempo tunes, but they exist as well (Someone, Ritual, AIP, City of Hope). Nothing wrong with that. Mother, father is dark. Message of Love is dark. Edge of the Blade is dark. One More is dark. And yes, Separate Ways is dark. Any of the great Journey rock tracks with balls are dark. You really lose me when you say you think that "City of Hope" is detuned and dark. Musically and lyrically, it's about as dark as a trip to Gumdrop Mountain by way of Candy Cane Lane, stopping at the Peanut Brittle rest stop along the way. If anything, it's Journey trying waaay to hard to sound positive and uplifting and DSB-like.

[Yoda]

The last two Journey concerts I attended went like this:

1998: Steve Augeri new to the band: The band played the dirty dozen, but mixed in "Remember Me" which I thought was awesome! Augeri sounded great that night!
2008: Shortly after Revelation was released: Journey played Never Walk Away, After All These Years...the rest were the same dirty dozen you pretty much hear on a normal night.

Save for a few extreme DD favorites, if I was allowed to pic the setlist, it would be something like this:

Intro/Separate Ways
Ask The Lonely
Resonate
Never Walk Away
Suzanne
** Cain piano solo**
Faithfully
When You Love A Woman OR Winds of March
Mother, Father
After The Fall
**Schon Guitar solo**
Big Good To Yourself
Higher Place
Remember Me
After All These Years
**Encore**
Ask The Lonely
Chain Reaction
Don't Stop Believin'

Besides Open Arms, the causal Journey fan who shows up to the concert is still going to get Separate Ways, Faithfully, and Don't Stop Believin', while the more hardcore fans will get a good a mixture of songs that aren't normally played, and of course some "new" songs played to promote Eclipse. I would be ecstatic to see a playlist like this.

[Gideon]

I love Ask the Lonely, but I'm not sure I want to hear it twice in the same concert.

[kgdjpubs]

Eclipse may have been a non-commercial cd but it was pandering. Why else would Journey detune to such levels with their lyrics sending a different message? It's either pandering or incompetence. Either way. it's unacceptable. Go listen to Night Ranger's latest and tell me it's not killer.

Some Eclipse songs have a darker edge (see Chain of Love, Resonate, or Edge of the Moment). In many respects it's alot like side B of Frontiers, which has always been a fav of Neals.

That's really what Eclipse is.....a full side-B of Frontiers.

[kgdjpubs]

The last two Journey concerts I attended went like this:

1998: Steve Augeri new to the band: The band played the dirty dozen, but mixed in "Remember Me" which I thought was awesome! Augeri sounded great that night!

It might have changed later on, but the earlier part of the '98 tour was really the Trial By Fire tour + Remember Me. If I remember correctly, they did about 4-5 TBF songs in Charlotte.

[Pelata]

The last two Journey concerts I attended went like this:

1998: Steve Augeri new to the band: The band played the dirty dozen, but mixed in "Remember Me" which I thought was awesome! Augeri sounded great that night!

It might have changed later on, but the earlier part of the '98 tour was really the Trial By Fire tour + Remember Me. If I remember correctly, they did about 4-5 TBF songs in Charlotte.

I saw them in Greensboro in '98 and remember hearing "Message Of Love" and maybe "When You Love A Woman", but can't remember if anything else from TBF was played...

[Eric]

The last two Journey concerts I attended went like this:

1998: Steve Augeri new to the band: The band played the dirty dozen, but mixed in "Remember Me" which I thought was awesome! Augeri sounded great that night!

It might have changed later on, but the earlier part of the '98 tour was really the Trial By Fire tour + Remember Me. If I remember correctly, they did about 4-5 TBF songs in Charlotte.

I saw them in Greensboro in '98 and remember hearing "Message Of Love" and maybe "When You Love A Woman", but can't remember if anything else from TBF was played...

I heard Castles Burning, One More, When You Love a Woman and Remember Me when I saw them in '98.

[The Sushi Hunter]

Cain: I don’t think you can quantify songwriting contributions. "Don’t Stop Believin'" – I brought in the title and the end piece and certainly the lyrics. I did a lot but it wasn’t without sitting there with Steve. We wrote together. There was a lot of arranging we did together. Neal brought the fire and the rock-n-roll attitude you want to have in a rock-n-roll band. Without the three of us, it just wasn’t Journey. "Stone In Love" was Neal’s idea. He had a different chorus pinned on it and Steve and I couldn’t find anything – a melody – to sing over it. So we changed it. Neal was miffed. But then after he heard it he decided it was cool. The writing was like that. You’ve got to be able to listen to others’ input and give some things up. But then again, there are times when you’ve got to stick up for your own ideas.

First off, I'm not debating this so before you go nuts, call off the dogs.

With that said, I recall a few months, hell could have been years, that someone posted on this forum that Steve Perry wrote the entire song by himself alone while staying in some hotel in Detroit and that's where he comes up with some of the wording in the lyrics. The "Street Light People" was how he described watching people in the street lights, walking around on the streets below at night from his hotel room alone.

So did I get that wrong somehow or is there multiple stories/theories on how DSB was created and exactly by whom?

[Michigan Girl]

Cain: I don’t think you can quantify songwriting contributions. "Don’t Stop Believin'" – I brought in the title and the end piece and certainly the lyrics. I did a lot but it wasn’t without sitting there with Steve. We wrote together. There was a lot of arranging we did together. Neal brought the fire and the rock-n-roll attitude you want to have in a rock-n-roll band. Without the three of us, it just wasn’t Journey. "Stone In Love" was Neal’s idea. He had a different chorus pinned on it and Steve and I couldn’t find anything – a melody – to sing over it. So we changed it. Neal was miffed. But then after he heard it he decided it was cool. The writing was like that. You’ve got to be able to listen to others’ input and give some things up. But then again, there are times when you’ve got to stick up for your own ideas.

First off, I'm not debating this so before you go nuts, call off the dogs.

With that said, I recall a few months, hell could have been years, that someone posted on this forum that Steve Perry wrote the entire song by himself alone while staying in some hotel in Detroit and that's where he comes up with some of the wording in the lyrics. The "Street Light People" was how he described watching people in the street lights, walking around on the streets below at night from his hotel room alone.

So did I get that wrong somehow or is there multiple stories/theories on how DSB was created and exactly by whom?

Yes ...

But it's interesting that Jon doesn't think it's Journey w/out Steve and Neal ...I don't believe (pardon me)
I've ever read that ...

[kgdjpubs]

The last two Journey concerts I attended went like this:

1998: Steve Augeri new to the band: The band played the dirty dozen, but mixed in "Remember Me" which I thought was awesome! Augeri sounded great that night!

It might have changed later on, but the earlier part of the '98 tour was really the Trial By Fire tour + Remember Me. If I remember correctly, they did about 4-5 TBF songs in Charlotte.

I saw them in Greensboro in '98 and remember hearing "Message Of Love" and maybe "When You Love A Woman", but can't remember if anything else from TBF was played...

I heard Castles Burning, One More, When You Love a Woman and Remember Me when I saw them in '98.

I don't remember if Charlotte got Message of Love or not, but definitely everything else listed plus Can't Tame the Lion. So that's at least 4, if not 5, songs from TBF + Remember Me.

[FamilyMan]

Cain: I don’t think you can quantify songwriting contributions. "Don’t Stop Believin'" – I brought in the title and the end piece and certainly the lyrics. I did a lot but it wasn’t without sitting there with Steve. We wrote together. There was a lot of arranging we did together. Neal brought the fire and the rock-n-roll attitude you want to have in a rock-n-roll band. Without the three of us, it just wasn’t Journey. "Stone In Love" was Neal’s idea. He had a different chorus pinned on it and Steve and I couldn’t find anything – a melody – to sing over it. So we changed it. Neal was miffed. But then after he heard it he decided it was cool. The writing was like that. You’ve got to be able to listen to others’ input and give some things up. But then again, there are times when you’ve got to stick up for your own ideas.

First off, I'm not debating this so before you go nuts, call off the dogs.

With that said, I recall a few months, hell could have been years, that someone posted on this forum that Steve Perry wrote the entire song by himself alone while staying in some hotel in Detroit and that's where he comes up with some of the wording in the lyrics. The "Street Light People" was how he described watching people in the street lights, walking around on the streets below at night from his hotel room alone.

So did I get that wrong somehow or is there multiple stories/theories on how DSB was created and exactly by whom?

Here's the story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdFWJdLXFTU

[The Sushi Hunter]

Here's the story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdFWJdLXFTU

I didn't watch the entire thing since I don't have time but I did watch a little of it. I don't agree that it's the most sung song in the karaoke world. I know a few people over the course of 17 years and I've hung out in many of their shows and Journey is one of the less done karaoke tunes simply because no one wants to attempt it since they know how high a voice it takes to do it. The old American standards like Frank Sinatra and the Beatles are the most karaoke sung overall that I can think of right off the top of my head. Since AP joined Journey however, many Filipinas and few Filipinos have attempted to sing the songs of Journey more then ever before. But that didn't start until AP joined. Before AP was in Journey, I never heard one Journey tune sung at karaoke, primarily because of the high vocal range required that people know it takes to have it go over well.

[Monker]

Cain: I don’t think you can quantify songwriting contributions. "Don’t Stop Believin'" – I brought in the title and the end piece and certainly the lyrics. I did a lot but it wasn’t without sitting there with Steve. We wrote together. There was a lot of arranging we did together. Neal brought the fire and the rock-n-roll attitude you want to have in a rock-n-roll band. Without the three of us, it just wasn’t Journey. "Stone In Love" was Neal’s idea. He had a different chorus pinned on it and Steve and I couldn’t find anything – a melody – to sing over it. So we changed it. Neal was miffed. But then after he heard it he decided it was cool. The writing was like that. You’ve got to be able to listen to others’ input and give some things up. But then again, there are times when you’ve got to stick up for your own ideas.

First off, I'm not debating this so before you go nuts, call off the dogs.

With that said, I recall a few months, hell could have been years, that someone posted on this forum that Steve Perry wrote the entire song by himself alone while staying in some hotel in Detroit and that's where he comes up with some of the wording in the lyrics. The "Street Light People" was how he described watching people in the street lights, walking around on the streets below at night from his hotel room alone.

So did I get that wrong somehow or is there multiple stories/theories on how DSB was created and exactly by whom?

j

That was in the Perry forum. It seems many Perry fans think he wrote every Journey song all by himself.

If you read that thread again, you will see it's basically a given fact that that Jonathan brought the idea of DSB with him when he joined the band, Jonathan and Perry collaborated and arranged their ideas along with Neal's bits.

[Monker]

Arnel being brought into the band did add a new culture to the fanbase. This new culture does consist of large numbers. I'm sure the popularity of these "classic" Journey tunes has been rekindled by the help of this new culture that Arnel attracted. Of course this new addition to the fanbase of Journey is Asians, particularily younger Filipinos throughout the world, along with many of their young friends.

If this isn't so, then lets say AP never joined the band and Journey still released another cd that consisted of the classics. Without this new culture added into the overall Journey fanbase that Arnel has attracted to the band since joining in late '07, how would such a release of Journey classics have sold?

This entire post is just wrong.

If Arnel had been from Chicago, or anywhere else in North America, Revelation would have sold just as well because of marketing of nostalgia and Arnel sounding like Perry. It has nothing to do with some culture thing injecting a new fan base. This entire argument was nothing but a myth...and I never believed it.

[Monker]

I like City of Hope and think Eclipse is great. Then again, this board, they could release Escape and most here would hate it!

Agreed. There's too much hate for people to realize that they're still making great music.

Nah, not hate. Sure, a lot of the posters around here are bitter, hateful, and spiteful about all things Journey, but if the general public shared that sentiment, I doubt they'd go to the concerts.
I think for the most part, it's nothing more than narrow-mindedness.

What would make you come to such a conclusion? The bitter, hateful and spiteful posters around here still attend.
You know, just like the rest of us, why the general public attends, it's the same reason w/LB, same w/Pat, the general
public wants the classics, it's the diehards who buy the new music...you're
pulling a steveo now.

Not sure if I'm counted in this category, but unless Journey drops ticket prices and ILAA, forget it...I can't justify spending the time on money on this band. It's just not worth it to me.

For one, you are a non-retard ...I would just call you a
normal American consumer who prioritizes his spending habits. I, too, refused
to give this band one dime of my concert budget for 2012 after the
sound disaster they offered up in '11. Hateful as that may sound, (although,
not textbook definition) I don't think they missed my $$$ one little bit.

My mother, on the other hand, saw them in Mount Pleasant (minus Pat) and she
thought they sounded pretty good in '12...

It's been a while since I read this thread and I forgot I posted that...

Wow, I'm a non-retard, normal, person....I don't think anybody has said things like that to me in this forum before, LOL.

I'm not boycotting, or anything like that. I just think their tickets are over priced for the shows they deliver. And, ILAA or whatever they use for fan packages nowadays, remove any chance of getting awesome seats.

So, over priced nostalgia band that you can't even get great seats to. Bleh, forget it.

[Monker]

Eclipse may have been a non-commercial cd but it was pandering. Why else would Journey detune to such levels with their lyrics sending a different message? It's either pandering or incompetence. Either way. it's unacceptable. Go listen to Night Ranger's latest and tell me it's not killer.

Some Eclipse songs have a darker edge (see Chain of Love, Resonate, or Edge of the Moment). In many respects it's alot like side B of Frontiers, which has always been a fav of Neals.

That's really what Eclipse is.....a full side-B of Frontiers.

That's a good way to put it...and if Frontiers' side A was the same style as "B", it would not have sold 6x platinum with multiple hit singles. And, if Eclipse could have mixed more not so over the top eclectic and progressive-lite songs into Eclipse, it would have sold more then it did, and maybe got some songs on radio.

[steveo777]

Eclipse may have been a non-commercial cd but it was pandering. Why else would Journey detune to such levels with their lyrics sending a different message? It's either pandering or incompetence. Either way. it's unacceptable. Go listen to Night Ranger's latest and tell me it's not killer.

Some Eclipse songs have a darker edge (see Chain of Love, Resonate, or Edge of the Moment). In many respects it's alot like side B of Frontiers, which has always been a fav of Neals.

That's really what Eclipse is.....a full side-B of Frontiers.

That's a good way to put it...and if Frontiers' side A was the same style as "B", it would not have sold 6x platinum with multiple hit singles. And, if Eclipse could have mixed more not so over the top eclectic and progressive-lite songs into Eclipse, it would have sold more then it did, and maybe got some songs on radio.

Maybe......but how many 80's heydey'rs do you hear on the radio with new music these days? Not many, if at all. Not here to argue anything, I just think the most success any of these bands have these days is in touring, not album sales. While they can still pull off good music, most of it will never be heard by the people who come to shows to hear the old hits played live.