Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice THREAD

[Monker]

Clark Kent, unlike Thor, grew up on Earth, learned what it was to be human with honest relationships and has a high morale of family value.

Exactly....he has no character flaws. He's this good looking dude who is all "liberty, justice and the American way", who has the girls swoon over him. He seems to have almost unlimited strength, speed, laser eyes with x-ray vision, flight, and on and on and on. Contrast that with Megamind...a scrawny dude with a big head that nobody likes, who comes up with crazy "evil" plans that he EXPECTS to go wrong. Make HIM the good superhero and you have ALL KINDS of character flaws to write about and make interesting...especially when the bad guy is an evil version of Superman.

Yes, "Kryptonite" is a flaw. But, the "real" flaw that represents is that he's an alien. But, that's hidden under thousands of layers of super powers and charm.

In many ways, Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent have a lot more in common as men within the dynamic to that relationship than any of the Marvel characters have shown between each other.

Imagine a movie where two characters meet. They have a ton of stuff in common and sit down and chat in a Starbucks cuz neither drinks...because they are good guys. Yawn.

That is NOT good story telling. Contrasting characters are what drives drama. One thinks he's a god, one IS a god. One is a narcissist who does not play well with others. The other a team player who is humbled by the fact that he used to be a scrawny kid who got beat up all the time. THAT is characters created to be together to drive drama in a story. What the characters have in common is NOT what drives drama and story.

Think of ANY hugely popular story. Star Trek: How much alike are Kirk, Spock and McCoy? Star Wars: How much alike are Ben, Luke and Han? Lord of the Rings: Aragorn, Gimly, Legolas, Borimir/Farimir, and Frodo.

It may be natural to think that characters that have a lot in common are a good thing, but it's not. Whatever they have in common ("We hate orcs and Sauron...must destroy ring" "The empire must fall", "We may not be able to save the Earth, but we can avenge it") must come through IN SPITE of how different they are..

The middle ground here is Wonder Woman. She's kind of the Thor in this scenario. No human relation and is a Princess Warrior from a Paradise Island only programmed to do one thing: WAR and battle.

For comic book fans, that may be how she is seen. For most laymen, she is the 70's TV version...which is not exactly what you describe above. If she plays a part, I hope it's small and just enough to get her own movie...because that character sounds interesting...and it should be out BEFORE Justice League...If not, people are going to be confused...

Supes is not 100% invincible. He has weakness's. Kryptonite is deadly to him and magic weakens him. Thor is more invincible than Superman in this regard.

Take Thor's hammer away and he's not worth nearly as much.

But, as I said above, his true weakness is he's an alien. That point was made well in "Man of Steel"...he was called 'the alien' repeatedly. He is a man without a home who has to make Earth his adopted home...but instead of integrating into society, he has his solitary fortress...and has to disguise himself as Clark Kent to blend end.

In fact, that is one angle BvS could go. Superman leads a double life where he tries to be accepted. Batman leads a double life where he almost wants to be the hero nobody likes.

The existence of Superman brings Bruce out of his shell. With a man of his power, Kal opens up Bruce's eyes to put more trust in relationships and take that leap of faith and trust in one another. Superman actually needs Bruce in the league in many ways. To basically make the brash and rash decisions that Clark simply can't judging by his morality and to be the voice of others. Supes does most of the heavy lifting. Bats keeps things in lockdown and is the decision-maker.

so, you are saying the plot goes something like this:

Luther comes along with a plot to do some evil destruction. Superman doesn't think and wants to fly in and take care of business. Batman warns him to get more info. Superman goes in anyway...and falls into a Kryptonite trap. Batman then has to save Superman and give him an "I told ya so..." lecture. Then together they make a plan and go in to get Luther. Wonderwoman pops in to say 'hi!'. Luther is captured. They have a talk about forming a team...The end.

I say they could make it more complicated and interesting then that. Batman and Superman do not need to "fight", but they need to argue and piss each other off a bit. There doesn't need to be a huge war scene like when the Avengers first met...but SOMETHING dramatic needs to come out that is not all friendly.

Maybe they both try to get Lex, but butt heads and he gets away...and they blame each other.

[YoungJRNY]

Exactly....he has no character flaws. He's this good looking dude who is all "liberty, justice and the American way", who has the girls swoon over him. He seems to have almost unlimited strength, speed, laser eyes with x-ray vision, flight, and on and on and on.

It's a huge character flaw. To have unlimited strength and power and super-speed and laser eyes and x-ray vision is something Man of Steel did SO well with the character in saying "Wait, you think x-ray vision is fun? Yeah, it's all fun and games looking at that girl across the street to look at her tits but see nothing but her guts and spleen. That's not fun."

Want to know what else isn't fun? Fearing to hug your mother or play backyard football down the street with little Pete Ross as a child because one little moment of weakness of Clark having fun means busted up bones and taking another kid to the E.R.

That was the purpose of Man of Steel. To show Clark's human-side and how he struggled as a child to know what it was like to be human with indescribable powers beyond what any normal man is capable of doing. It's a burden. Heat vision is shown to even hurt and burn him..everytime.

Being able to shoot lasers from your eyeballs is a curse for a little boy to hone and that's why the Kents play such a role. Without them, who knows what Clark would have become but Man of Steel showed that people should think twice that just because Kal has super-powers, realize it took him his whole life to hone and control while at the same time, needing to hide himself from others to not be discovered.

Yes, "Kryptonite" is a flaw. But, the "real" flaw that represents is that he's an alien. But, that's hidden under thousands of layers of super powers and charm.

Exactly, it's hidden. Hiding something of that caliber, no matter how charmful Superman may be and no matter how much of a human quality he may have inherited through his upbringing, there will always be somebody reminding him that he's an alien and that he doesn't belong here.

This was ALWAYS a major burden on Supes and always will be no matter how much he thinks humanity will accept him. Deep down, he's Kryptonian and the last of his kind. He'll never be normal. That's a great base for this character with this enormous pressure on his chest, and yet, he still sets out to do the right thing. It's not easy for him. He struggles.

Imagine a movie where two characters meet. They have a ton of stuff in common and sit down and chat in a Starbucks cuz neither drinks...because they are good guys. Yawn.

Having something in common but always seeing eye to eye on things are completely two different things. I typed that they do indeed have a lot of stuff in common when it comes to how they became who they are, but I didn't necessarily say they go about things the same way, agree on the same things or want to have a chat at Starbucks. It's actually quite the opposite.

You know what could create drama? Setting out to do the EXACT same thing but butting heads and always coming to tangle as to HOW to go about it. That's Superman and Batman. They come from the same coin, but are the total opposties OF that same coin. It's a dynamic relationship and a unique one.

For comic book fans, that may be how she is seen. For most laymen, she is the 70's TV version...which is not exactly what you describe above. If she plays a part, I hope it's small and just enough to get her own movie...because that character sounds interesting...and it should be out BEFORE Justice League...If not, people are going to be confused...

See how Supes was depicted in Man of Steel? He wasn't Christopher Reeve's Superman in the slightest. This is an entirely different age. The 70's Lynda Carter was the 70's Lynda Carter Wonder Woman, great, but this is the first cinematic Wonder Woman playing by the rules of this new-age modern universe and the Wonder Woman we have today in the comics is a total Warrior Princess....with a EMPHASIS on warrior. She's going to throw down with the best of 'em, if not better in this Justice League Universe.

Take Thor's hammer away and he's not worth nearly as much.

Take Earth's sun away and Superman isn't worth nearly as much Take Batman's money and gadgets away. Take Wolverine's adamatium away.... Take...you get the picture.

But, as I said above, his true weakness is he's an alien. That point was made well in "Man of Steel"...he was called 'the alien' repeatedly. He is a man without a home who has to make Earth his adopted home...but instead of integrating into society, he has his solitary fortress...and has to disguise himself as Clark Kent to blend end.

Ah, exactly. And THAT my friend, is a HUGE, HUGE character flaw. As I said above, no matter how much charm Supes does indeed ooze of, he's a flawed character of living in a place where he's alien but with human values. The people who seriously don't get Superman and say he's boring are the one's who never picked up his comic book and actually read him when he's written right.

Luther comes along with a plot to do some evil destruction. Superman doesn't think and wants to fly in and take care of business. Batman warns him to get more info. Superman goes in anyway...and falls into a Kryptonite trap. Batman then has to save Superman and give him an "I told ya so..." lecture. Then together they make a plan and go in to get Luther. Wonderwoman pops in to say 'hi!'. Luther is captured. They have a talk about forming a team...The end.

I say they could make it more complicated and interesting then that. Batman and Superman do not need to "fight", but they need to argue and piss each other off a bit. There doesn't need to be a huge war scene like when the Avengers first met...but SOMETHING dramatic needs to come out that is not all friendly.

Maybe they both try to get Lex, but butt heads and he gets away...and they blame each other.

Not sure what they have planned, but there are dynamics in the story of these characters that make this shared universe and upcming film a VASTLY unique one. As for the plot, who knows but I have a feeling it's going to be something totaly unexpected. 2 more years to find out.

EDIT: Had all the quotes F'ed up!

[verslibre]

I have a bad feeling about Wonder Woman. I see another possible debacle like Catwoman. ugh.
In fact, throw Elektra in there too. If WW is any good it may be the first female lead SuperHero movie that is.

Elektra and Catwoman had badly written screenplays, the latter's worse than the former. Jen Garner was so wrong for the role, in spite of her efforts to measure up to fans' expectations. (The Daredevil movie was far worse, though, but again, it was badly scripted — weirder yet, I predicted back then Affleck would portray MM/DD, when it hadn't even been hinted at).

[YoungJRNY]

I have a bad feeling about Wonder Woman. I see another possible debacle like Catwoman. ugh.
In fact, throw Elektra in there too. If WW is any good it may be the first female lead SuperHero movie that is.

Elektra and Catwoman had badly written screenplays, the latter's worse than the former. Jen Garner was so wrong for the role, in spite of her efforts to measure up to fans' expectations. (The Daredevil movie was far worse, though, but again, it was badly scripted — weirder yet, I predicted back then Affleck would portray MM/DD, when it hadn't even been hinted at).

DD was fucked. The director's cut is actually very, very good.

[verslibre]

I have a bad feeling about Wonder Woman. I see another possible debacle like Catwoman. ugh.
In fact, throw Elektra in there too. If WW is any good it may be the first female lead SuperHero movie that is.

Elektra and Catwoman had badly written screenplays, the latter's worse than the former. Jen Garner was so wrong for the role, in spite of her efforts to measure up to fans' expectations. (The Daredevil movie was far worse, though, but again, it was badly scripted — weirder yet, I predicted back then Affleck would portray MM/DD, when it hadn't even been hinted at).

DD was fucked. The director's cut is actually very, very good.

I didn't like the direction. I'm glad he's finally getting a (series) reboot. One of comicdom's all-time best characters deserves better.

[verslibre]

Take Earth's sun away and Superman isn't worth nearly as much Take Batman's money and gadgets away. Take Wolverine's adamatium away.... Take...you get the picture.

SPOILER ALERT!!!

Muhammad Ali whupped Superman's ass when they boxed on a planet that orbited a red sun.

[verslibre]

BTW, it was hilarious (in a bad way) to see Wolverine get utterly owned by Magneto in DoFP.

[YoungJRNY]

Take Earth's sun away and Superman isn't worth nearly as much Take Batman's money and gadgets away. Take Wolverine's adamatium away.... Take...you get the picture.

SPOILER ALERT!!!

Muhammad Ali whupped Superman's ass when they boxed on a planet that orbited a red sun.

I want that statue

[Monker]

I have a bad feeling about Wonder Woman. I see another possible debacle like Catwoman. ugh.
In fact, throw Elektra in there too. If WW is any good it may be the first female lead SuperHero movie that is.

Elektra and Catwoman had badly written screenplays, the latter's worse than the former. Jen Garner was so wrong for the role, in spite of her efforts to measure up to fans' expectations. (The Daredevil movie was far worse, though, but again, it was badly scripted — weirder yet, I predicted back then Affleck would portray MM/DD, when it hadn't even been hinted at).

I remember Jeniffer Garner being on Letterman, I think, and she came off very odd like, "Yeah, I'm in a new movie...see it, or not, I don't care." Then I read she hated the movie and only did it because she was under contract from Daredevil. It was something she HAD to do to get on to something else...and that comes through in the movie.

[Monker]

BTW, it was hilarious (in a bad way) to see Wolverine get utterly owned by Magneto in DoFP.

I know Wolverine was told to "think happy thoughts" and had a decent scene when he woke up in the past...but other then that, he came off as a total wimp in that movie. That was probably the only bad thing about that movie for me...he could have been written MUCH better.

[Monker]

That would never happen in todays world...A Muslim beating up Superman...don't think that would go over well.

Take Earth's sun away and Superman isn't worth nearly as much Take Batman's money and gadgets away. Take Wolverine's adamatium away.... Take...you get the picture.

SPOILER ALERT!!!

Muhammad Ali whupped Superman's ass when they boxed on a planet that orbited a red sun.

I want that statue

[verslibre]

BTW, it was hilarious (in a bad way) to see Wolverine get utterly owned by Magneto in DoFP.

I know Wolverine was told to "think happy thoughts" and had a decent scene when he woke up in the past...but other then that, he came off as a total wimp in that movie. That was probably the only bad thing about that movie for me...he could have been written MUCH better.

I actually liked that the film wasn't "THE!! HUGH!!! JACKMAN!!! SHOWWW!!!!" this time. It ably demonstrated how obscenely powerful Magneto truly is, and how an adamantium-free Wolverine is a dude with funny hair and mutton chops who heals much faster than you and me when he whacks his shin on an end table. The way Magneto tossed him into the river like a piece of foil was brutal.

[YoungJRNY]

Great article by Mark Hughes over at Forbes:

Why Superman Fans Can Stop Worrying About 'Batman V Superman' Movie
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/ ... -superman/

[YoungJRNY]

My favorite part of the article. This guy fucking GETS it. Sounds familiar

The conflict between Batman and Superman happens to be among the most famous love-hate relationships in comics, fans eat it up, and that’s why the comics so often pit them against one another. But it’s always, always with the caveat that Batman only survives longer than a split second because Superman is fundamentally too good a person to actually fight Batman toe to toe using his full abilities. Superman could and would instantly reduce Batman to a pile of broken bones and melted flesh if he wanted to do so, or he could fly at top speed snatch Batman to fly him so high into the upper atmosphere that the cold and lack of oxygen makes Batman pass out. And so on. This is a debate fans have had for years, and it’s silly because in the end we all know that of course Batman only has a chance if he tricks Superman and if Superman makes dumb choices and doesn’t use more than maybe 1/1,000 of his powers or less. It’s a pointless debate, and there’s no point to having them fight unless there are conditions that allow it to at least be interesting.

Who wins? Usually, Batman “wins,” and in that victory is the consistent point that Superman holds back to avoid slaughtering Batman, and the even more subtle point that Superman doesn’t WANT to beat Batman anyway. Superman respects Batman, even when Batman is doing nothing but criticizing and insulting Superman. Superman knows Batman is a necessary force of good, and the most dependable and ultimately loyal “friend” Superman could have. Batman thinks about the things nobody else is able or willing to consider, and Batman is willing to make hard choices and go to great lengths to do things nobody else would dare do — like trying to fight Superman in the first place.


Superman doesn’t want to smash Batman — if anything, Superman’s goodness and greater moral center and firmer moderate grasp of human nature (Batman’s view of human nature is cynical and skewed by the fact he spends his life among the worst of the worst dregs of society most of the time) makes Superman understand that it’s better for the world and for Batman’s own ego and mission if Superman “loses.” In addition, Superman’s willingness to trust and not to deceive others in any negative or threatening way probably also makes it slightly easier for Batman to trick Superman into situations that give Batman an initial upper hand.

The bolded part is such a fantastic understanding of the characters.

[verslibre]

Under a red sun Batman would kick Superman's ass!

(Great article, btw.)

[YoungJRNY]

Uhoh! There's a curtain in the background. I'd **** my pants if they unveiled the Supes/Bats/Wondy suits like the ones teased in front from the MoS reveal

[verslibre]

^^^ Isn't the reveal slated for later today?

[YoungJRNY]

^^^ Isn't the reveal slated for later today?

I think so! This is the picture below, 19hours ago:

[YoungJRNY]

The only thing that worries me for this not being BvS related is the WB Tours FB, which is designed to show us props from already existing movies. Still, can't wait to see, whatever it is.

[verslibre]

First glimpse of Gal Gadot on set as Diana/WW.

[RedWingFan]

The only thing that worries me for this not being BvS related is the WB Tours FB, which is designed to show us props from already existing movies. Still, can't wait to see, whatever it is.

So what was it?

[YoungJRNY]

The only thing that worries me for this not being BvS related is the WB Tours FB, which is designed to show us props from already existing movies. Still, can't wait to see, whatever it is.

So what was it?

The reveal is officially set for Monday.

[YoungJRNY]

First glimpse of Gal Gadot on set as Diana/WW.

[Monker]

First glimpse of Gal Gadot on set as Diana/WW.

Gal Gadot? Sounds Cardassian. But, she definitely doesn't look Cardassian.

[verslibre]

First glimpse of Gal Gadot on set as Diana/WW.

Gal Gadot? Sounds Cardassian. But, she definitely doesn't look Cardassian.

You mean Kardashian?

[YoungJRNY]

The WB tours page worried me. Not BvS related. Just a Batman exhibit celebrating his 75th. That's it. Anal cavity raped again. It's going to be a long-ass 2 years.

[YoungJRNY]

[YoungJRNY]

Zack Snyder how early talks came about:

Snyder: I gotta be honest, it definitely was a thing that… after Man of Steel finished and we started talking about what would be in the next movie, I started subtly mentioning that it would be cool if he faced Batman. In the first meeting, it was like, “Maybe Batman?” Maybe at the end of the second movie, some Kryptonite gets delivered to Bruce Wayne’s house or something. Like in a cryptic way, that’s the first time we see him. But then, once you say it out loud, right? You’re in a story meeting talking about, like, who should [Superman] fight if he fought this giant alien threat Zod who was basically his equal physically, from his planet, fighting on our turf… You know, who to fight next? The problem is, once you say it out loud, then it’s kind of hard to go back, right? Once you say, “What about Batman?” then you realize, “Okay, that’s a cool idea. What else?” I mean, what do you say after that? …But I’m not gonna say at all that when I took the job to do Man of Steel that I did it in a subversive way to get to Batman. I really believe that only after contemplating who could face [Superman] did Batman come into the picture.

[RedWingFan]

Zack Snyder how early talks came about:

Snyder: I gotta be honest, it definitely was a thing that… after Man of Steel finished and we started talking about what would be in the next movie, I started subtly mentioning that it would be cool if he faced Batman. In the first meeting, it was like, “Maybe Batman?” Maybe at the end of the second movie, some Kryptonite gets delivered to Bruce Wayne’s house or something. Like in a cryptic way, that’s the first time we see him. But then, once you say it out loud, right? You’re in a story meeting talking about, like, who should [Superman] fight if he fought this giant alien threat Zod who was basically his equal physically, from his planet, fighting on our turf… You know, who to fight next? The problem is, once you say it out loud, then it’s kind of hard to go back, right? Once you say, “What about Batman?” then you realize, “Okay, that’s a cool idea. What else?” I mean, what do you say after that? …But I’m not gonna say at all that when I took the job to do Man of Steel that I did it in a subversive way to get to Batman. I really believe that only after contemplating who could face [Superman] did Batman come into the picture.

This argues my point that Superman has no significant villians. Admittedly I've never read the comics, but only know of the 3 Kryptonians, and anyone with Kryptonite, whether that's Lex Luthor or whoever and I've heard of Doomsday.

"You’re in a story meeting talking about, like, who should [Superman] fight if he fought this giant alien threat Zod who was basically his equal physically, from his planet, fighting on our turf… You know, who to fight next?"

Exactly!!!! To make him an interesting character you'd have to make every movie intergalactic like the Thor flicks, where he's fighting other worldly beings. Or, Batman w/ Kryptonite....to sell tickets.

[YoungJRNY]

Zack Snyder how early talks came about:

Snyder: I gotta be honest, it definitely was a thing that… after Man of Steel finished and we started talking about what would be in the next movie, I started subtly mentioning that it would be cool if he faced Batman. In the first meeting, it was like, “Maybe Batman?” Maybe at the end of the second movie, some Kryptonite gets delivered to Bruce Wayne’s house or something. Like in a cryptic way, that’s the first time we see him. But then, once you say it out loud, right? You’re in a story meeting talking about, like, who should [Superman] fight if he fought this giant alien threat Zod who was basically his equal physically, from his planet, fighting on our turf… You know, who to fight next? The problem is, once you say it out loud, then it’s kind of hard to go back, right? Once you say, “What about Batman?” then you realize, “Okay, that’s a cool idea. What else?” I mean, what do you say after that? …But I’m not gonna say at all that when I took the job to do Man of Steel that I did it in a subversive way to get to Batman. I really believe that only after contemplating who could face [Superman] did Batman come into the picture.

This argues my point that Superman has no significant villians. Admittedly I've never read the comics, but only know of the 3 Kryptonians, and anyone with Kryptonite, whether that's Lex Luthor or whoever and I've heard of Doomsday.

"You’re in a story meeting talking about, like, who should [Superman] fight if he fought this giant alien threat Zod who was basically his equal physically, from his planet, fighting on our turf… You know, who to fight next?"

Exactly!!!! To make him an interesting character you'd have to make every movie intergalactic like the Thor flicks, where he's fighting other worldly beings.

Lex Luthor is in this. Plus, the balance is there. Man of Steel was a wild sci-fi flick and the next installment is going to focus on a retaliation standpoint in a shared universe here on Earth. This is the next logical installment that so happens to be a dream-movie for the industry. Supes will get other solo's down the road and has plenty of worthy, popular villains that fans have wanted to see forever like Brainiac, Bizarro and obviously, Doomsday, who I think we will see sooner rather than later but he could be saved for the last solo Supes film. You also have villains like the Cyborg, the Eradicator, Mxy (if they were to go a 5th dimension route) or even Lobo.

It's just not Superman entirely. The DC Universe and the scale to allow this Justice League to happen is about as enormous as you can imagine. DC is mythical and Godlike and they have the right director to pull the visuals off. It's going to be wild.

Or, Batman w/ Kryptonite....to sell tickets

What a coincidence since it took Superman as the character to help the Batgod get over the hump in being the all-mighty badass that he is today and get out from the ruins of the Silver-Age/Robin butt-boy era or the Adam West Batman wackiness with Frank Millers TDKReturns.