One More Album with Arnel

[The_Noble_Cause]

I found Eddie Van Halen's recent comments about DLR really interesting... the one where he said that Dave is in a place musically where he will no longer write Van Halen songs. "One of us listens to dance music, etc." They're not on the same page creatively. I sense that's what is going on with Journey now. Not all the members are willing to come to the table.

Given Eddie's track record, does anyone truly believe that Dave is the guy holding things up? Dave will tell you that he always brought a dance music element to the songwriting.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I have a certain direction, musically, going on in my head as to how I think they should sound on a new album. Problem is, it's hard for me to describe it.

I, too, have a sound in my head and it is hard to describe as well. It is melodic with Neal's guitar being the focus, but not really shredding although there can be some of that. It is "melodic outer-space sound" for lack of any other term. This could be the coolest Journey album ever. Neal's soulful guitar with Jon's keys and the rest of the band take Journey out of this world. They need to experiment with making Journey sounding new and fresh while keeping it melodic and perhaps add harmonies. Now, if Neal and Jon can decode all of this, we're in store for a really cool album.

Sounds like you are describing Eclipse.

[annie89509]

The success of Revelations relative to any other non-SP album was a combination of these factors:

-- the massive media hype given to AP as the new lead singer (a foreigner to boot) complete with rags-to-riches backstory.
-- a general curiosity to hear to old favorite Journey songs re-recorded & sung by said new lead singer, who is supposed to “sound just like Steve Perry.”
-- the bargain basement price of $11.88 for 2 cds & concert dvd – what a steal!

[JBlake]

The success of Revelations relative to any other non-SP album was a combination of these factors:

-- the massive media hype given to AP as the new lead singer (a foreigner to boot) complete with rags-to-riches backstory.
-- a general curiosity to hear to old favorite Journey songs re-recorded & sung by said new lead singer, who is supposed to “sound just like Steve Perry.”
-- the bargain basement price of $11.88 for 2 cds & concert dvd – what a steal!

Not to mention (which was left out) he's an outstanding vocalist for one, and, the number of Filipinos who became Journey fans because of AP joining. Long before AP joined Journey, there was a fair amount of Filipinos who loved the band when SP was in the band. So when a Filipino became the vocalist for a band that had somewhat of a following within the Filipino community, this became a huge drawing in numbers. The most talked about band in the Philippines for the first few years AP joined was Journey. Things may be mellowing out now though like seven years or so later.

So these were also two major contributing factors to the band's recent (2008, 2009, and 2010) success.

[DracIsBack]

I found Eddie Van Halen's recent comments about DLR really interesting... the one where he said that Dave is in a place musically where he will no longer write Van Halen songs.

Or try to sing them remotely in tune in concert either.

Roth really gets under my skin. Lots of ego, quips and strutting around, combined with some of the absolute worst live singing I've ever heard.

Ed, Dave, Alex and Sammy all act like goofs, trashing each other regularly like schoolkids. So glad Journey and others tend to avoid that crap.

[Majestic]

The success of Revelations relative to any other non-SP album was a combination of these factors:

-- the massive media hype given to AP as the new lead singer (a foreigner to boot) complete with rags-to-riches backstory.
-- a general curiosity to hear to old favorite Journey songs re-recorded & sung by said new lead singer, who is supposed to “sound just like Steve Perry.”
-- the bargain basement price of $11.88 for 2 cds & concert dvd – what a steal!

Well said, Annie. I think this is exactly why it did well, in addition to having had and AOR hit with After All These Years, some pretty good NEW Journey songs, and positive reviews of the NEW music. Imaging how much greater a deal it would have been if the retread disk was one of the three: 1) a live disk 2) more new songs 3) covers of songs that aren't yours. Walmart wanted the covers however, and the re-record phenomenon was a trendy (and terrible) idea at the time, so we have to give the band a pass even though it was a terrible idea and is an awful disk.

[slucero]

Journeys best songs are when the songs were arrangement and lyric focused... which is what the Perry/Cain combo forced on Neal... who's most memorable playing came when his playing was restrained and distilled...

Clearly Cain has not been able to manage Neal's playing in the way Perry could, who was obviously the guy most able to keep Neal in "check", and keep Journey song focused...

Remember Perry used to sing melody lines to Neal... the importance of that can't be overlooked...


IMHO, the problem with Journey's songs (and Neals playing) is that there is no Perry to tell Neal when he is over playing... and not serving the song...

[JBlake]

"

Clearly Cain has not been able to manage Neal's playing in the way Perry could, who was obviously the guy most able to keep Neal in "check", and keep Journey song focused...

Remember Perry used to sing melody lines to Neal... the importance of that can't be overlooked...

IMHO, the problem with Journey's songs (and Neals playing) is that there is no Perry to tell Neal when he is over playing... and not serving the song...

This could be the case. However, do you/we really know that this is the absolute case? This may be something Neal's just doing at this point in his career. Perhaps when SP was in the band, which was something like what 20-30 years ago, Neal wasn't so much into what he's doing now in what you're referencing. Age brings changes in people's thoughts. habits, desires and behavior. Look at Gilligan from Gilligan's Island. The last number of years of his life he was frequently seen wearing his old Gilligan's trademark wardrobe and hanging out at local bars for drinks and attention. He would never had done that when he was in his 30's, 40's and perhaps 50's. But again, we really don't know that.

So maybe you're right about what your saying in regards to SP putting a damper on Neal's guitar presence, and if you are, I'd like to know how you know and why? Or is this just a suggestion as to the explanation into why the guitar presence is so much greater than compared to when SP was in the band.

[JBlake]

The success of Revelations relative to any other non-SP album was a combination of these factors:

-- the massive media hype given to AP as the new lead singer (a foreigner to boot) complete with rags-to-riches backstory.
-- a general curiosity to hear to old favorite Journey songs re-recorded & sung by said new lead singer, who is supposed to “sound just like Steve Perry.”
-- the bargain basement price of $11.88 for 2 cds & concert dvd – what a steal!

Well said, Annie. I think this is exactly why it did well, in addition to having had and AOR hit with After All These Years, some pretty good NEW Journey songs, and positive reviews of the NEW music. Imaging how much greater a deal it would have been if the retread disk was one of the three: 1) a live disk 2) more new songs 3) covers of songs that aren't yours. Walmart wanted the covers however, and the re-record phenomenon was a trendy (and terrible) idea at the time, so we have to give the band a pass even though it was a terrible idea and is an awful disk.

One thing for certain, once AP was officially Journey's new lead vocalist, "Arnel Pineda" became a household name in the entire country of the Philippines and to those Filipino's residing world wide. You know that brought in a gigantic number of new fans/revenue which greatly influenced the renewed success of the band and the first album to feature AP.

[JourneyHard]

I, too, have a sound in my head and it is hard to describe as well. It is melodic with Neal's guitar being the focus, but not really shredding although there can be some of that. It is "melodic outer-space sound" for lack of any other term. This could be the coolest Journey album ever. Neal's soulful guitar with Jon's keys and the rest of the band take Journey out of this world. They need to experiment with making Journey sounding new and fresh while keeping it melodic and perhaps add harmonies. Now, if Neal and Jon can decode all of this, we're in store for a really cool album.

Sounds like you are describing Eclipse.

Maybe I am. Perhaps they need a little tickering and they will be home free! lol

[JourneyHard]

Journeys best songs are when the songs were arrangement and lyric focused... which is what the Perry/Cain combo forced on Neal... who's most memorable playing came when his playing was restrained and distilled...

I agree. Even the rockers such as Edge of the Blade are better because Neal was forced to focus his energy.

I think they need to tinker with their sound a little, and even the way Arnel sings. I am looking for more soulful singing. Sing like Sam Cooke.

I can dream.

[JBlake]

I'd like to see them create stronger structured melodies in their music. The songs on that last album seemed like they were just created with a bunch of notes mixed in with each other. Nothing really special at all, just a bunch of notes that fit together. But hey...that's just me.

[Journey/Survivor]

In the late 70's and the 80's Neal had some incentive to play more "restrained." That incentive being hit songs on the radio that made the band millions of dollars.

Journey are not going to have a hit song on the radio in 2015, 2016, 2017 etc, no matter how restrained Neal plays.


I find it ridiculous that Cain tries to act as if Eclipse didn't sell well when compared to Revelation simply because it was a harder Rock album than Revelation.

The reasons that Revelation sold better is all of the media hype that Journey got when Arnel joined the band. Oprah, Ellen, etc. Also the disc of remakes and the live DVD being packaged with the new songs of Revelation.

[perryfan61]

"

Clearly Cain has not been able to manage Neal's playing in the way Perry could, who was obviously the guy most able to keep Neal in "check", and keep Journey song focused...

Remember Perry used to sing melody lines to Neal... the importance of that can't be overlooked...

IMHO, the problem with Journey's songs (and Neals playing) is that there is no Perry to tell Neal when he is over playing... and not serving the song...

This could be the case. However, do you/we really know that this is the absolute case? This may be something Neal's just doing at this point in his career. Perhaps when SP was in the band, which was something like what 20-30 years ago, Neal wasn't so much into what he's doing now in what you're referencing. Age brings changes in people's thoughts. habits, desires and behavior. Look at Gilligan from Gilligan's Island. The last number of years of his life he was frequently seen wearing his old Gilligan's trademark wardrobe and hanging out at local bars for drinks and attention. He would never had done that when he was in his 30's, 40's and perhaps 50's. But again, we really don't know that.

So maybe you're right about what your saying in regards to SP putting a damper on Neal's guitar presence, and if you are, I'd like to know how you know and why? Or is this just a suggestion as to the explanation into why the guitar presence is so much greater than compared to when SP was in the band.

I remember an interview with Neal, talking about recording TBF. He said he hated SP so much during that album that he showed up drunk or hung over every day. Said he was sick to death of hearing "too much guitar" comments from SP on every song. I think that shows that SP still had some influence over how the songs should sound for that album.

[JourneyHard]

Journey are not going to have a hit song on the radio in 2015, 2016, 2017 etc, no matter how restrained Neal plays.

If "Remember Me" had been played in its entirety during the final credits of Armageddon, it might have been a big hit song for Journey. Now, we will never know.

[FamilyMan]

"

Clearly Cain has not been able to manage Neal's playing in the way Perry could, who was obviously the guy most able to keep Neal in "check", and keep Journey song focused...

Remember Perry used to sing melody lines to Neal... the importance of that can't be overlooked...

IMHO, the problem with Journey's songs (and Neals playing) is that there is no Perry to tell Neal when he is over playing... and not serving the song...

This could be the case. However, do you/we really know that this is the absolute case? This may be something Neal's just doing at this point in his career. Perhaps when SP was in the band, which was something like what 20-30 years ago, Neal wasn't so much into what he's doing now in what you're referencing. Age brings changes in people's thoughts. habits, desires and behavior. Look at Gilligan from Gilligan's Island. The last number of years of his life he was frequently seen wearing his old Gilligan's trademark wardrobe and hanging out at local bars for drinks and attention. He would never had done that when he was in his 30's, 40's and perhaps 50's. But again, we really don't know that.

So maybe you're right about what your saying in regards to SP putting a damper on Neal's guitar presence, and if you are, I'd like to know how you know and why? Or is this just a suggestion as to the explanation into why the guitar presence is so much greater than compared to when SP was in the band.

I remember an interview with Neal, talking about recording TBF. He said he hated SP so much during that album that he showed up drunk or hung over every day. Said he was sick to death of hearing "too much guitar" comments from SP on every song. I think that shows that SP still had some influence over how the songs should sound for that album.

Of course Perry was in control of TBF. His condition on coming back to the band altogether was based on firing Herbie and bringing in Azoff. TBF was all his baby, as was ROR. But Neal had to make that deal with the devil, or not get his band back.
Oh - and Journey/Sourvivor ... how did CBS Sunday Morning get relegated to "etc" in your post?

[JBlake]

I remember an interview with Neal, talking about recording TBF. He said he hated SP so much during that album that he showed up drunk or hung over every day. Said he was sick to death of hearing "too much guitar" comments from SP on every song. I think that shows that SP still had some influence over how the songs should sound for that album.

Well we all know that someone drunk/hung over, one strum from an electric guitar is 9 times out of 10, too much. That very well could explain it.

[JourneyHard]

Here is my wild and wacky idea.

Journey with Arnel should do a five-month tour. Play the Dirty Dozen plus two new songs each month. And record the new songs at each show, and then after the tour, they would take the best performances of the new songs, and release the new ten-song album.

This sounds like the gimmick they need. Now, instead of saying stupid boring stuff between songs, Neal or Jon could say, "We're recording these new songs for a new album."

They could title the album Travels. (If that is a lame title, they could come up with a cool one-word title later.)

[Journey/Survivor]

Oh - and Journey/Sourvivor ... how did CBS Sunday Morning get relegated to "etc" in your post?

Because I couldn't remember which morning show it was.

I couldn't remember which network it was that year, and therefore didn't remember the name of the show. More recently I believe it was NBC's morning show that they appeared on?

[The_Noble_Cause]

Oh - and Journey/Sourvivor ... how did CBS Sunday Morning get relegated to "etc" in your post?

Because I couldn't remember which morning show it was.

I couldn't remember which network it was that year, and therefore didn't remember the name of the show. More recently I believe it was NBC's morning show that they appeared on?

The band played "City of Hope" on NBC's Today Show. Matt Lauer got Jon and Neal mixed up. They also played some of the hits.
The CBS Sunday Morning segment promoted Arnel, Revelation, and dismissively referred to Augeri and Soto as "two other lead singers that joined the band in the past decade never captured the Perry magic."

Family Man - tell us, did you write that line or was it the idea of Journey management. Pretty low either way.

[FamilyMan]

Oh - and Journey/Sourvivor ... how did CBS Sunday Morning get relegated to "etc" in your post?

Because I couldn't remember which morning show it was.

I couldn't remember which network it was that year, and therefore didn't remember the name of the show. More recently I believe it was NBC's morning show that they appeared on?

The band played "City of Hope" on NBC's Today Show. Matt Lauer got Jon and Neal mixed up. They also played some of the hits.
The CBS Sunday Morning segment promoted Arnel, Revelation, and dismissively referred to Augeri and Soto as "two other lead singers that joined the band in the past decade never captured the Perry magic."

Family Man - tell us, did you write that line or was it the idea of Journey management. Pretty low either way.

Time always becomes one's enemy when writing for television. My first draft of that script had a much longer, more complete explanation of Augeri's tenure. When we had to edit for time, it was reduced to "two other singers..." Would do it differently in retrospect if I could. Journey management had no editorial control of that story, FYI... nor did it request any. They weren't even at the shoot.

[JBlake]

Of course Perry was in control of TBF. His condition on coming back to the band altogether was based on firing Herbie and bringing in Azoff. TBF was all his baby, as was ROR. But Neal had to make that deal with the devil, or not get his band back.
Oh - and Journey/Sourvivor ... how did CBS Sunday Morning get relegated to "etc" in your post?

Out of curiosity, how did TBF and ROR do compared to the rest? Average, above average, so-so, below average?

[Journey/Survivor]

Oh - and Journey/Sourvivor ... how did CBS Sunday Morning get relegated to "etc" in your post?

Because I couldn't remember which morning show it was.

I couldn't remember which network it was that year, and therefore didn't remember the name of the show. More recently I believe it was NBC's morning show that they appeared on?

The band played "City of Hope" on NBC's Today Show. Matt Lauer got Jon and Neal mixed up. They also played some of the hits.
The CBS Sunday Morning segment promoted Arnel, Revelation, and dismissively referred to Augeri and Soto as "two other lead singers that joined the band in the past decade never captured the Perry magic."

Family Man - tell us, did you write that line or was it the idea of Journey management. Pretty low either way.

I recorded both morning news show performances when they originally aired, and probably watched them a few times each at the time. But I probably haven't watched them since around those time-periods.

Now that you mention it, I do remember the thing where Matt Lauer mixed up Neal and Jonathan.

[Journey/Survivor]

Of course Perry was in control of TBF. His condition on coming back to the band altogether was based on firing Herbie and bringing in Azoff. TBF was all his baby, as was ROR. But Neal had to make that deal with the devil, or not get his band back.
Oh - and Journey/Sourvivor ... how did CBS Sunday Morning get relegated to "etc" in your post?

Out of curiosity, how did TBF and ROR do compared to the rest? Average, above average, so-so, below average?

ROR still sold very well. Although it was a definite drop-off from Escape and Frontiers. TBF also sold well, but I believe that it sold less than ROR did.

I would say that the reason that TBF sold less than the others was mainly because it was the mid/late 90's, and the general population were listening to shit music at the time, and therefore there were far less radio stations promoting Journey by that time. Plus the fact that people could start doing things like downloading the album from Napster type programs.


IMO, ROR didn't sell as well as Escape and Frontiers because of the Motown direction that Perry took the band at the time.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Time always becomes one's enemy when writing for television. My first draft of that script had a much longer, more complete explanation of Augeri's tenure. When we had to edit for time, it was reduced to "two other singers..." Would do it differently in retrospect if I could. Journey management had no editorial control of that story, FYI... nor did it request any. They weren't even at the shoot.

Thanks for answering, FamilyMan. I understand.

[JBlake]

Of course Perry was in control of TBF. His condition on coming back to the band altogether was based on firing Herbie and bringing in Azoff. TBF was all his baby, as was ROR. But Neal had to make that deal with the devil, or not get his band back.
Oh - and Journey/Sourvivor ... how did CBS Sunday Morning get relegated to "etc" in your post?

Out of curiosity, how did TBF and ROR do compared to the rest? Average, above average, so-so, below average?

I would say that the reason that TBF sold less than the others was mainly because it was the mid/late 90's, and the general population were listening to shit music at the time, and therefore there were far less radio stations promoting Journey by that time.

The grunge years LOL. I agree, that was shit music.

[Journey/Survivor]

Out of curiosity, how did TBF and ROR do compared to the rest? Average, above average, so-so, below average?[/quote]

I would say that the reason that TBF sold less than the others was mainly because it was the mid/late 90's, and the general population were listening to shit music at the time, and therefore there were far less radio stations promoting Journey by that time. [/quote]

The grunge years LOL. I agree, that was shit music.[/quote]

I hate Grunge almost as much as Rap, because it nearly killed real music.

[perryfan61]

hate Grunge almost as much as Rap, because it nearly killed real music.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Such a shame that a whole generation will never know what good music, and real musical talent, sound like. Let's hope their parents keep the real music alive.

And I happen to like TBF, even though it's not like the other Journey albums. Doing something different for every album was what kept the music fresh and interesting, IMHO..

[Monker]

Out of curiosity, how did TBF and ROR do compared to the rest? Average, above average, so-so, below average?

ROR still sold very well. Although it was a definite drop-off from Escape and Frontiers. TBF also sold well, but I believe that it sold less than ROR did.[/quote]

You can say they reached platinum status but they still could have been much, MUCH more.

I would say that the reason that TBF sold less than the others was mainly because it was the mid/late 90's

The Eagles, "Hell Freezes Over" proves the above is absolutely NOT the reason.

First of all, it was RELEASED as a platinum album. That is how the numbers were counted back then - by how many copies the labels released, not by how many retail is showing sold.

Second, Journey had a HUGE amount of promotion for TBF, and a hit song that got airplay. They were positioned to have a HUGE reunion album, just like the Eagles had. As mediocre as I think TBF is, it should have had a few top 40 singles and been AT LEAST triple platinum.

But, Journey FAILED to capitalize on the above by doing ANY promotion after the initial radio tour. So, it all died after "When You Love a Woman" fell off the charts. There were no promotional appearences of any sort and the band did not tour. THAT is what killed the album sales, not Grundge. To put a fine point on it - Perry's hip is why TBF died early.

IMO, ROR didn't sell as well as Escape and Frontiers because of the Motown direction that Perry took the band at the time.

That is true...it was too far away from the sound Journey fans were used to....just as Eclipse was. They are two albums that sound absolutely completely different, but have the same problem - one person dictating what Journey should sound like.

[Monker]

Out of curiosity, how did TBF and ROR do compared to the rest? Average, above average, so-so, below average?

I would say that the reason that TBF sold less than the others was mainly because it was the mid/late 90's, and the general population were listening to shit music at the time, and therefore there were far less radio stations promoting Journey by that time. [/quote]

The grunge years LOL. I agree, that was shit music.[/quote]

I hate Grunge almost as much as Rap, because it nearly killed real music.[/quote]

I hate Grunge as well. But, it is not those bands fault. It's the labels fault for chasing the next big sound. The 80's were filled with hard rock and metal, and glam. The generation who came of age in the 90's grasped onto the next new thing, Nirvana. Then the labels jumped all over that to find and sign the next Nirvana....and to finance that, they cut back on all of the 80's rock.

Everybody loves to blame downloading as killing the music business. What I feel happened is that after the Grunge fad faded, there was nothing new to take its place, from a rock perspective. So, rap/hip-hop, and generic pop filled the gap...finding a new rock trend was lost in the shuffle. IMO, the entire idea of labels looking for the next big sound, instead of signing and promoting the best bands, is what really killed the industry.