One More Album with Arnel

[JourneyHard]

Out of curiosity, how did TBF and ROR do compared to the rest? Average, above average, so-so, below average?

I believe Raised on Radio didn't sell well because it didn't have enough rockers. Trial By Fire didn't sell well because there was no tour. Eclipse didn't sell well because no Steve Perry. Let's say Escape was never released, and Journey released it today without Perry. It wouldn't sell. Now, I know this won't happen, but if Steve Perry woke up one day and said, "This is silly. I am getting back with Journey." And then Steve Perry and Journey redo Eclipse. I bet it sells well. Of course, we will never know.

[slucero]

Just like Revelation sold on the notoriety of Arnel's story, anything "new" from Perry will sell.. on the notoriety alone...

..with Perry it will just sell more..

[The_Noble_Cause]

IMO, ROR didn't sell as well as Escape and Frontiers because of the Motown direction that Perry took the band at the time.

The Motown influence was present before ROR, especially on tracks like "Ask the Lonely." The band progressively moved in that direction with the arrival of Cain. Where ROR really went off the rails (to me) was bland material like, "Happy to Give" and "It Could Have Been You" and "Eyes of the Woman." This stuff doesn't sound like Motown or Journey. Just really bad 80's pop. ROR tracks like "Girl Can't Help It" and "Be Good to Yourself" are classics because the Motown influence is there, but it also sounds like Escape/Frontiers-era Journey.

[FamilyMan]

IMO, ROR didn't sell as well as Escape and Frontiers because of the Motown direction that Perry took the band at the time.

The Motown influence was present before ROR, especially on tracks like "Ask the Lonely." The band progressively moved in that direction with the arrival of Cain. Where ROR really went off the rails (to me) was bland material like, "Happy to Give" and "It Could Have Been You" and "Eyes of the Woman." This stuff doesn't sound like Motown or Journey. Just really bad 80's pop. ROR tracks like "Girl Can't Help It" and "Be Good to Yourself" are classics because the Motown influence is there, but it also sounds like Escape/Frontiers-era Journey.

Agree with you completely here, TNC. Have to include "Suzanne" in the pop-crap category. The only other song I would listen to was "Once You Love Somebody" for the guitar work and the R&B feel it had to it. Surprised this one doesn't find its way into a Journey set from time to time. I'd love to hear Arnel's take on it.

[scarab]

i think i am the only one who actually liked "it could have been you" mainly for Perrys voice and the bass line.
It sounds like it could have been on Departure. Doesnt sound poppy like Suzanne, Positive Touch, or Happy to Give (which I can actually listen to for Perrys voice alone. Never got the Eyes of a Woman. Very boring.

Of course the rest of the songs sounded very Journey or a hybrid of Journey and Steve's solo album.
Still would love to hear the songs before the whole album rewrite. How the two time3 songs did not make that cut still mystifies me.

[Journey/Survivor]

i think i am the only one who actually liked "it could have been you" mainly for Perrys voice and the bass line.

You're not.

I've always liked it too. For Perry's singing and Neal's guitar playing.

[annie89509]

The anecdotes about Neal “hating” SP and being drunk/hung over every day were during the ROR studio sessions, not TBF. By all accounts, the making of TBF was harmonious… everyone talked about a good, even cathartic, experience. In promo interviews, the band talked about fresh start, left the old baggage behind … new manager, new outside producer…went back to their earlier way of songwriting, that is, crafting the song’s structure and lyrics beforehand but finishing it in the studio with the whole band involved.

Reading between the lines, implication was they did not do that with their previous album. Indeed, everyone (I mean, the hardcore fans) all can agree that ROR was a Perry/Cain(at the direction of Perry) project. People like to say SP seized/had too much control, but hey blame the band. They gave him the control by appointing him producer. And I do not believe those who say Steve demanded the producer’s chair. Rather, I think the band was desperate and feared SP was leaving to go solo. Remember, S/T went platinum in no time (according to HH, the quickest by a lead singer doing solo project other than Stevie Nicks). The producer appt. most likely was enticement to get him back in the studios. At that time, Jon supposedly had songs all but finished, just waiting for Steve’s contributions and magic vocals.

Getting back to TBF …years later, Ross and Smitty, separately, have commented that it was the most enjoyable time they ever had in this group. SP, for his part, made a conscientious effort to be among the pack. He made it a point to distinguish this latest project (TBF) as a re-energized Journey unrelated to his solo efforts. What caused all the bitterness (among the band and most hardcore fans) is not during, but what came afterwards, with the hip issue and supposedly “refusal” to tour.

[annie89509]

Journeys best songs are when the songs were arrangement and lyric focused... which is what the Perry/Cain combo forced on Neal... who's most memorable playing came when his playing was restrained and distilled...

Clearly Cain has not been able to manage Neal's playing in the way Perry could, who was obviously the guy most able to keep Neal in "check", and keep Journey song focused...

Remember Perry used to sing melody lines to Neal... the importance of that can't be overlooked...


IMHO, the problem with Journey's songs (and Neals playing) is that there is no Perry to tell Neal when he is over playing... and not serving the song...

Agreed 100%!

Different times, different life experiences, people change. But, damn, those songs with Perry fingerprints all over them are absolutely the most memorable (imo).

Jon did(does) a lot, but it's the voice that plays off the guitar (vice versa), so of course the singer is the guy who keeps(kept) Neal "in check" and focused. No offense to Arnel, SP was the master at melody lines. Heck, hasn't Arnel even been quoted as saying that, in the studio when they're recording a song, Jon coaches him how to sing the line/verse a certain way (or how Jon likes to hear a song sung)? Can't imagine anyone dare tell SP how/what to sing.

[JourneyHard]

With one more album with Arnel, there would be plenty of room for everybody. Jon can write his ballads. Neal can go wild on some rockers. Arnel can sing his tail off. Everybody would be happy. Instead of busting each other's balls, the band needs to come together and make everybody happy. Start off the album with Journey Legacy Sound songs and tell Neal to keep his solos short, and then give Neal some space later on to spread his wings and fly with extended guitar solos. I don't see why everybody can't be accommodated. The band would be happy, and the fans would be happy.

[Majestic]

With one more album with Arnel, there would be plenty of room for everybody. Jon can write his ballads. Neal can go wild on some rockers. Arnel can sing his tail off. Everybody would be happy. Instead of busting each other's balls, the band needs to come together and make everybody happy. Start off the album with Journey Legacy Sound songs and tell Neal to keep his solos short, and then give Neal some space later on to spread his wings and fly with extended guitar solos. I don't see why everybody can't be accommodated. The band would be happy, and the fans would be happy.

I don't want Neal to write any more Journey rockers. I love Neal, and he is a brilliant player, and even a good composer as an instrumentalist. But his rockers tend to be a bit shallow or cheesy. I want grown-up rockers from Journey. Compare the brooding Troubled Child and Edge of the Blade with Nothing Comes Close and you will see what I mean. The other constructive criticism I have for Neal's rockers, is that they are lacking in sophistication in riffing and chord structure. He seems to be all about the melodic lead and content to use the most basic rhythm patterns on his riffs, and simple cheater chords rather than something full and complex. Lyrically, I think a rocker needs to say something more than the cliche fun party stuff. Say something meaningful like Mother Father, and be heavy in a sophisticated way, not just knocking out uninspired power chords with boring rhythms.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I don't want Neal to write any more Journey rockers. I love Neal, and he is a brilliant player, and even a good composer as an instrumentalist. But his rockers tend to be a bit shallow or cheesy. I want grown-up rockers from Journey. Compare the brooding Troubled Child and Edge of the Blade with Nothing Comes Close and you will see what I mean.

Why does NCC fall on Schon's shoulders? The tune is a co-write between Cain, Schon, and Augeri. It was added last minute to the US release of Arrival. For what it is, (a throwaway party track), it's really not bad at all. As for "dark melodic rock" in the vein of Frontiers, I would direct you to "Edge of the Moment" and "Chain of Love" on Eclipse.

[Eric]

I don't want Neal to write any more Journey rockers. I love Neal, and he is a brilliant player, and even a good composer as an instrumentalist. But his rockers tend to be a bit shallow or cheesy. I want grown-up rockers from Journey. Compare the brooding Troubled Child and Edge of the Blade with Nothing Comes Close and you will see what I mean. The other constructive criticism I have for Neal's rockers, is that they are lacking in sophistication in riffing and chord structure. He seems to be all about the melodic lead and content to use the most basic rhythm patterns on his riffs, and simple cheater chords rather than something full and complex. Lyrically, I think a rocker needs to say something more than the cliche fun party stuff. Say something meaningful like Mother Father, and be heavy in a sophisticated way, not just knocking out uninspired power chords with boring rhythms.

Have you heard Eclipse?

[Journey/Survivor]

I don't want Neal to play shorter solos.
I do want Neal to write and record Rockers.
I don't want Jonathan writing anymore ballads. Or at least not more than maybe one per album.
Nothing Comes Close was one of the better songs on Arrival.
I do wish that Neal would play more of the Frankie Sullivan style power-chord riffs.


Also, I don't know if it was always Perry and Cain forcing Schon to play more "restrained?" I think that it was also often the record company pushing the band to do more ballads or other lite Rock songs.
I do think that that also made Perry and Cain happy too. But Journey are no longer playing for hit songs, because it's not going to happen.

Let Neal Rock!!!

[Journey/Survivor]

Lyrically, I think a rocker needs to say something more than the cliche fun party stuff.

I largely agree with that.

To me that was a big down-fall of many of the DLR era Van Halen songs. There wasn't much lyrical depth to those songs.
Sammy Hagar is a much better writer than DLR.

[The_Noble_Cause]

There wasn't much lyrical depth to those songs.
Sammy Hagar is a much better writer than DLR.

You mean depth like "Only time will tell if we stand the test of time"? The lyrics on A Diff. Kind of Truth were far superior to anything on Chickenfoot. And I like Sammy and Dave.

[DracIsBack]

I believe Raised on Radio didn't sell well because it didn't have enough rockers. Trial By Fire didn't sell well because there was no tour.

Trial By Fire went platinum two months after release and had a gold single.

Raised on Radio went double platinum.

If you're counting against previous albums, I'd agree they "comparatively" didn't sell well. But on their own, albums that receive such certifications are generally considered successful.

[Majestic]

I don't want Neal to write any more Journey rockers. I love Neal, and he is a brilliant player, and even a good composer as an instrumentalist. But his rockers tend to be a bit shallow or cheesy. I want grown-up rockers from Journey. Compare the brooding Troubled Child and Edge of the Blade with Nothing Comes Close and you will see what I mean.

Why does NCC fall on Schon's shoulders? The tune is a co-write between Cain, Schon, and Augeri. It was added last minute to the US release of Arrival. For what it is, (a throwaway party track), it's really not bad at all. As for "dark melodic rock" in the vein of Frontiers, I would direct you to "Edge of the Moment" and "Chain of Love" on Eclipse.

I'm not putting it on his shoulders at all, I am only mentioning it as an example of the type of "rocker" I can do with out. But if you want a better example of rockers that can be pinned on Schon of late, look at So U. I'm not saying that none of those songs are good...but I'm just saying I desire more. Listen to Alter Bridge songs. For sure, Journey is not going to sound like that, and shouldn't. But read the lyrics of AB tunes. Thoughtful, deep, interesting, something to say something to think about. And don't you agree that Schon ought to focus a little more attention on his riffing? It seems to me that a lot of his riffs are mere shallow pretext for the solo to come. I love his soloing a lot, but I think if he wanted to, every part of what he plays could be great. For contrast, look at Metallica. A band with the exact opposite problem of Journey. Fast, intricately textured riff patterns, and then solos that fizzle by comparison. I would not like Journey to sound like Metallica either, but I just think Neal ought to work on making his riffs sizzle as much as his leads. Then again, he is getting up there in years so maybe he needs lack luster riffs to catch a breath between solos.

[Majestic]

I don't want Neal to write any more Journey rockers. I love Neal, and he is a brilliant player, and even a good composer as an instrumentalist. But his rockers tend to be a bit shallow or cheesy. I want grown-up rockers from Journey. Compare the brooding Troubled Child and Edge of the Blade with Nothing Comes Close and you will see what I mean. The other constructive criticism I have for Neal's rockers, is that they are lacking in sophistication in riffing and chord structure. He seems to be all about the melodic lead and content to use the most basic rhythm patterns on his riffs, and simple cheater chords rather than something full and complex. Lyrically, I think a rocker needs to say something more than the cliche fun party stuff. Say something meaningful like Mother Father, and be heavy in a sophisticated way, not just knocking out uninspired power chords with boring rhythms.

Have you heard Eclipse?

I like Eclipse a lot. Sure, most of the lyrics had some interesting concepts going on even if they don't "resonate" with everyone. The album had lots of layers and interesting playing. But I also feel that Neal needs to give more thought to his riffing. Try new patterns, new timings, more sophisticated rhythms. Why are his solos so blistering and his rhythms on his riffs so pedestrian? If he could pick up some of the techniques of Hetfield or Tremonti (with much more subtlety and finesse of course, to fit Journey's palate) think how much greater Eclipse would have been on the heavier stuff. I don't want to give the impression I'm down on Neal. He remains my favorite, but I'm just trying to offer some constructive criticism.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I'm not putting it on his shoulders at all, I am only mentioning it as an example of the type of "rocker" I can do with out. But if you want a better example of rockers that can be pinned on Schon of late, look at So U. I'm not saying that none of those songs are good...but I'm just saying I desire more.

I think the question should be....has this type of Schon solo material influenced Journey? I don't really think so. The song "The Time" off Red 13 is a good example of the type of songs Neal would rather be doing in Journey. At this stage of the game, I think Eclipse is about as ambitious of a project we are going to get from Neal and the band.

[FamilyMan]

I'm not putting it on his shoulders at all, I am only mentioning it as an example of the type of "rocker" I can do with out. But if you want a better example of rockers that can be pinned on Schon of late, look at So U. I'm not saying that none of those songs are good...but I'm just saying I desire more.

I think the question should be....has this type of Schon solo material influenced Journey? I don't really think so. The song "The Time" off Red 13 is a good example of the type of songs Neal would rather be doing in Journey. At this stage of the game, I think Eclipse is about as ambitious of a project we are going to get from Neal and the band.

This is true. They were energized after Revelation; coming back from Manila and having witnessed all that Arnel endured there. The band seems a little fractured now, with Jon living in Nashville and Deen in so much trouble. Neal is the only one that seems ambitious and creative. So if he's the one driving the train, it will be another album of rockers.

[The_Noble_Cause]

To me, this is an example of post-Perry Journey at its best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXn9n2t ... ifw3WF5ecF

[JourneyHard]

To me, this is an example of post-Perry Journey at its best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXn9n2t ... ifw3WF5ecF
To me, this is an example of post-Perry Journey at its best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXn9n2t ... ifw3WF5ecF

I wonder if Journey wrote that song about Steve Perry.

[Eric]

To me, this is an example of post-Perry Journey at its best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXn9n2t ... ifw3WF5ecF

For me...its this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-20y1OBhnoY

[JourneyHard]

My favorite song from Arrival is Live and Breathe.

My favorite song from Revelations is Change For The Better.

I am just saying their next album just needs to be well-rounded with good songs in all areas, rockers and ballads and everything.

[MysteryMountain]

I like the opening track, and I see Jeremy was credited, very good sir. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0Zf7PQfCTY Very much a classic Journey sound & song.

[Monker]

I believe Raised on Radio didn't sell well because it didn't have enough rockers. Trial By Fire didn't sell well because there was no tour.

Trial By Fire went platinum two months after release and had a gold single.

Raised on Radio went double platinum.

If you're counting against previous albums, I'd agree they "comparatively" didn't sell well. But on their own, albums that receive such certifications are generally considered successful.

You need to remember that the reason TBF "went platinum" so fast is because it was shipped as a platinum album. That is how the numbers were counted back then. Since it shipped to retail as a platinum album, all Columbia had to do was ask for it to be certified. Just because it went platinum in two months does NOT mean it sold a million albums in two months.

[DracIsBack]

You need to remember that the reason TBF "went platinum" so fast is because it was shipped as a platinum album. That is how the numbers were counted back then. Since it shipped to retail as a platinum album, all Columbia had to do was ask for it to be certified. Just because it went platinum in two months does NOT mean it sold a million albums in two months.

You are correct that this indeed was a problem, but IIRC, the RIAA had long changed the award standards by then to deal with the "shipped gold, returned platinum" problem. I have a book from the 1990s about gold and platinum records somewhere. I'll try to dig it up.

off the top of my head, there are a bunch of factors including the units shipped; a time period elapsing, an amount of revenue earned by the record etc.

[DracIsBack]

This is the newer certification criteria, but a lot of these were in place when Trial by Fire was out. Perhaps Raised on Radio as well.

CERTIFICATION CRITERIA
Certification Criteria

Along with minimum sales figures, a number of other criteria accompany each title for certification. The list and table below describe what titles and types of sales can be considered for the awards.

- Each company that requests RIAA® certification must be a firm or corporation that has headquarters in the United States and is engaged in the legitimate production and sale of sound recordings.

- Sales of albums in physical product format become eligible for certification 30 days after the initial street date.

- Sales of albums in digital product format become eligible at the initial release date.
Initial pre-orders of digital albums will not be counted towards certification. The pre-orders will only count towards certification after the album is released to the general public and the customer receives a copy of the digital album.

-Only domestic sales and sales to U.S. military post exchanges may be included. The requesting company must separate PX sales from other accounts on sales sheets. Export sales outside the United States are not included in certification.

- Club sales and club free goods may be included towards certification. Product shipped to retail, mail order, record clubs, TV marketing and other ancillary markets are combined toward certified sales. All shipments to these accounts must be verified by the label.

- Promotional radio and press copies, cut-outs, inventory sell-offs and surplus sales are not included toward certification.

- Catalog product, specifically pre-1972 album releases, are eligible for certification by meeting either the unit shipment or manufacturer's dollar requirement for each award level. The purpose of this rule is to make certain exceptions for older albums that have very little supporting documentation substantiating that they meet both the unit requirement and the dollar requirement. Without the rule, these titles would potentially be unable to meet the dollar requirement based on the limited documentation available from sales that occurred decades ago.

- Albums bundled with other products (e.g. concert tickets, merchandise, etc.) can be eligible under RIAA’s Gold & Platinum Program if they meet the following requirements:

- Albums bundled with other products and sold to consumers must be sold at a minimum $6 premium per album when compared to the standalone product’s price. For example, products bundled with 1 album must be sold at a $6 premium, products bundled with 2 albums at a $12 premium, etc. This satisfies the existing dollar volume required of album certifications. Furthermore, the accompanying products must be available for purchase separately.

- The label must also validate that albums redeemed through product sales and counted towards certification have actually been distributed or downloaded within the United States.

Platinum award:
Quantity:
One million units. Manufacturer's dollar volume at least $2 million based on 33 1/3% of sugg. list price

[SF-Dano]

To me, this is an example of post-Perry Journey at its best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXn9n2t ... ifw3WF5ecF

For me...its this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-20y1OBhnoY

I believe if Arrival, Revelations, and Eclipse were released in the 80s/early 90s they would have been platinum selling albums all. My example of post-Perry Journey at its best would be Higher Place along with this ....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpZVulDvwyY.

[scarab]

i think Journey's post Perry's chart success was bad management.
Remember me should have been a hit. How it was pulled from Armageddon is beyond me. A much better end song from the sappy diane warren song.
And how the only ""real" single Journey has had, "All the Way" is arguably them most boring ballad Journey has ever recorded.
Higher Place was great and should have been promoted better. So many good songs on Arrival, and Journey releases the worst.

I know After all these years had minor chart success, but I never heard this song on the radio. I live in MN and we don;t even have a light rock station that plays new songs anymore.

And then once again, a great album full of radio friendly songs, Eclipse, and Journey releases another very boring non hook song City of Hope.