Eclipse - 5 years

[Monker]

Theres a couple of songs on here that are good but the new style stuff was a complete miss for me... I wouldn't listen anymore if they continue with the new style, I thought it was real weak.

What new direction? What new style? Every song on Eclipse sounds like Journey.

A new direction would have been if they did an album of all ballads. That wouldn't be Journey. Journey is NOT Air Supply. Journey is a Hard Rock band who happens to have some ballads. Aerosmith had tons of ballads in the 1990's and they are still called a Hard Rock band. I think the casual fans do NOT know how hard Journey has rocked in the past.

I suppose that you are correct in that every song on Eclipse sounds like Journey. Because the album was made by Journey. People and Places from Departure is Journey. So is DSB. And LaDoDa, and WYLAW, and Raised on Radio. So, yeah in that sense it sounds like Journey.

Dream After Dream is also a Journey album....but, today, if people heard that album for the first time, I doubt they would think it sounds much like Journey at all...except for "Little Girl" and possibly "Destiny"...and that is only because of Perry.

The same could be said about the first three album or "In the Beginning". If people heard those albums for the first time today, I doubt they would say it sounds like Journey.

[Monker]

If they could somehow meld the best stylistic aspects from the likes of Arrival, Generations, Revelation, and Eclipse they'd have a killer album....

That is exactly what I am saying. Neal and Jonathan should put aside what they want the album to sound like and only do what the song demands. Maybe hire a good producer who they trust to keep them in line....if such a person exists.

But, I really don't think either Neal or Jonathan will be able to try do that at this point. And, I doubt any producer can truly bring out their best songs any longer.

[The_Noble_Cause]

It would be interesting to go back five years and see what you were posting back then. Because it felt like I was the only one posting that all of this success wasn't going to happen.

Be my guest dickhead. Your "feelings" are not facts. And unlike yourself, I don't run or hide from my previously held opinions. I've always stated that I didn't expect Revelation to do half as well as it did. And I was impressed when Eclipse charted where it did.

Eclipse was EXPECTED to do a LOT better then it did. It was EXPECTED to pass Revelation in sales. Wal-Mart printed FAR too many CD's because even they had higher expectations.

And those expectations were based on nonsense. Walmart had success with Revelation. 2/3 of Revelation was a greatest hits set. Revelation was also a 3-disc set. They had success with the Manilla DVD which was also comprised of hits. There was no proof of a demand for new Journey music outside of diehard fans.

But, Neal turned his back on the audience that Revelation built. Journey spent a bunch of time rebuilding an audience for the "legacy" sound.

There is no proof that Revelation built an audience interested in new Journey music. The only minor hit from that album was "After All These Years." Does that mean the band should have released another ballad-heavy snooze-fest?

When Neal pushed Journey into being the Neal Schon solo band, he turned off a lot of people.

Nothing you're saying here is borne out by facts whatsoever. The same audiences that were going to see the hits with Augeri are coming to see them with Arnel. There has been no decline in touring revenue or album sales.

[The_Noble_Cause]

The same could be said about the first three album or "In the Beginning". If people heard those albums for the first time today, I doubt they would say it sounds like Journey.

Who cares? Those are Journey albums. Deal with it. I have friends who thought "Arrival" didn't sound like Journey at all without Perry. Journey is whatever it chooses to be. For Eclipse, it was guitar driven rock built more around riffs than hooks.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Yeah, right, a new Journey album. That will happen after Steve Perry tours for his solo release.

If Neal gives Cain an ultimatum, it will happen. Last year, Neal said that he was working on new material with Arnel. This band has continued to forge ahead while their peers have sat on their laurels. Neal pushed the guys to do Red 13. Neal told Walmart he wanted to do a full album of new material for Revelation and not just an EP as originally planned. So if Neal wants to make it happen, it likely will. Go take your pessimistic attitude to the Styx forum where they are still patiently awaiting a follow-up to 2003's Cyclorama.

[The_Noble_Cause]

The only song I really listen to from Eclipse any longer is "Chain of Love", according to TNC, it must be death metal or something.

Chain of Love is inarguably the hardest song on the album. Maybe the hardest Journey song ever, tied with Edge of the Blade and The Time. Do you deny that?

Here's what Andrew said:

"From there the guys throw out the Journey rulebook. [Chain of Love] relays a dark and heavy tone that throws you at first, but gets better and better after each play. The riff is brutal – the heaviest I have heard on any Journey record."

He's right. You're wrong. So I'm in good company.

Even Jonathan said Eclipse was Neal's baby...

Cain said that while also taking credit for the concept of the entire album and writing 100% of the lyrics. The truth of the situation is, Cain had another syrupy, wedding/prom, Open Arms 2.0 ballad ready to go and Schon overruled him in the studio. Good for Schon. Cain was pissed and probably still is. Maybe he can take that ballad and change the lyrics from "her" and "she" to "savior" and "lord" or "invisible spaghetti monster" or some other bible humping dreck.

[Monker]

The same could be said about the first three album or "In the Beginning". If people heard those albums for the first time today, I doubt they would say it sounds like Journey.

Who cares? Those are Journey albums. Deal with it. I have friends who thought "Arrival" didn't sound like Journey at all without Perry. Journey is whatever it chooses to be. For Eclipse, it was guitar driven rock built more around riffs than hooks.

That's all true...but doesn't mean the world is going to accept it as "Journey". That is my point.

[The_Noble_Cause]

That's all true...but doesn't mean the world is going to accept it as "Journey". That is my point.

But the world has shunned all new Journey music since Trial by Fire. Kalodner tailored Arrival to be Trial by Fire 2. How did that work out?

[Monker]

Yeah, right, a new Journey album. That will happen after Steve Perry tours for his solo release.

If Neal gives Cain an ultimatum, it will happen. Last year, Neal said that he was working on new material with Arnel. This band has continued to forge ahead while their peers have sat on their laurels. Neal pushed the guys to do Red 13. Neal told Walmart he wanted to do a full album of new material for Revelation and not just an EP as originally planned. So if Neal wants to make it happen, it likely will. Go take your pessimistic attitude to the Styx forum where they are still patiently awaiting a follow-up to 2003's Cyclorama.

Well, IMO, if Neal told Cain, "make a new album or we are hiring someone else." I think Jonathan would walk away And, good luck to Neal in trying to convince the world that his solo band is still Journey.

But, none of that really makes any difference. Who is going to release it? Frontiers? Whatever...it just isn't going to happen

[The_Noble_Cause]

And, good luck to Neal in trying to convince the world that his solo band is still Journey.

Riiiight. And next you'll tell me that Foreigner can't tour without Mick Jones. In the end, nobody really cares.

But, none of that really makes any difference. Who is going to release it? Frontiers? Whatever...it just isn't going to happen

Santana IV is currently enjoying chart success. As far as I know, it was independently released.

[Monker]

The only song I really listen to from Eclipse any longer is "Chain of Love", according to TNC, it must be death metal or something.

Chain of Love is inarguably the hardest song on the album. Maybe the hardest Journey song ever, tied with Edge of the Blade and The Time. Do you deny that?

I don't deny it or agree with it. It's a good song....but I don't listen to it and think of it as "Journey"

{quote]Here's what Andrew said: [/quote]

Andrew said a lot of things..he ranked the album WAY too high.

"From there the guys throw out the Journey rulebook. [Chain of Love] relays a dark and heavy tone that throws you at first, but gets better and better after each play. The riff is brutal – the heaviest I have heard on any Journey record."

He's right. You're wrong. So I'm in good company.

I'm wrong about what? I didn't give you an opinion to judge.

Even Jonathan said Eclipse was Neal's baby...

Cain said that while also taking credit for the concept of the entire album and writing 100% of the lyrics. The truth of the situation is, Cain had another syrupy, wedding/prom, Open Arms 2.0 ballad ready to go and Schon overruled him in the studio. Good for Schon. Cain was pissed and probably still is. Maybe he can take that ballad and change the lyrics from "her" and "she" to "savior" and "lord" or "invisible spaghetti monster" or some other bible humping dreck.

Yep...and as I said, Eclipse is as much Neal's album as ROR is Perry's.....and Jonathan did the same type of work on ROR.

Or, perhaps the ballad Neal cut was more like "Why Can't This Night Go On Forever" and actually sounded like a legacy Journey song which could have been a big hit. But, it really doesn't make any difference. Just as Perry trashed songs on ROR, Schon trashed songs on Eclipse....as I said, it's his album and he had control of it (whether "he" is Perry OR Schon).

[Monker]

That's all true...but doesn't mean the world is going to accept it as "Journey". That is my point.

But the world has shunned all new Journey music since Trial by Fire. Kalodner tailored Arrival to be Trial by Fire 2. How did that work out?

And, the world shunned the first three Journey albums, and Dream Afer Dream....so there you go.

And, Arrival is a far, far better album than TBF. The difference being that Sony backed TBF and promoted it...and did nothing for Arrival. Even Kevin Shirley said that Sony had in mind what it would sell and didn't care if sold beyond that. BTW, Arrival sold three times what Eclipse did. If Arrival had packaged the Vegas DVD with it, it would have been a gold album.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Or, perhaps the ballad Neal cut was more like "Why Can't This Night Go On Forever" and actually sounded like a legacy Journey song which could have been a big hit.

It doesn't matter if Cain's umpteenth boy-meets-girl ballad had the potential to be a hit.
"With Your Love" and "Knowing that You Love Me" also had radio success potential, but at what cost? The only ballads this band should be doing should be in the vein of "Walking Away from the Edge" or "To Whom It May Concern." The romantic chick stuff is very trite. Maybe for the next album they should just have Diane Warren write everything.

[The_Noble_Cause]

And, Arrival is a far, far better album than TBF.

Only because it leaked and they added additional rock tracks. Take away "World Gone Wild" and "Nothing Comes Close" and you have a fairly lackluster release. Even with the two added tracks, it has alot of filler. And "Nothing Comes Close" is more Bad English than Journey imo.

[Monker]

And, good luck to Neal in trying to convince the world that his solo band is still Journey.

Riiiight. And next you'll tell me that Foreigner can't tour without Mick Jones. In the end, nobody really cares.

Oh, they can tour, and if they can legally use the name, they will. But, that does not mean they will continue with the success they have now.

But, none of that really makes any difference. Who is going to release it? Frontiers? Whatever...it just isn't going to happen

Santana IV is currently enjoying chart success. As far as I know, it was independently released.

Which is probably another reason why Journey will not record another album...If Santana wants to do another album, I doubt Neal would tell him, 'no, I have to do a Journey album."

[Monker]

Or, perhaps the ballad Neal cut was more like "Why Can't This Night Go On Forever" and actually sounded like a legacy Journey song which could have been a big hit.

It doesn't matter if Cain's umpteenth boy-meets-girl ballad had the potential to be a hit.
"With Your Love" and "Knowing that You Love Me" also had radio success potential, but at what cost? The only ballads this band should be doing should be in the vein of "Walking Away from the Edge" or "To Whom It May Concern." The romantic chick stuff is very trite. Maybe for the next album they should just have Diane Warren write everything.

Well, since you already have Jonathan getting an ultimatum, they probably would need Dianne Warren and Jack Blades, and Steve Perry, and whoever else the can find who can write decent songs.

[Monker]

And, Arrival is a far, far better album than TBF.

Only because it leaked and they added additional rock tracks. Take away "World Gone Wild" and "Nothing Comes Close" and you have a fairly lackluster release. Even with the two added tracks, it has alot of filler. And "Nothing Comes Close" is more Bad English than Journey imo.

I wrote in BT when Arrival was first released that "Nothing Comes Close" sounds like a BE reject song after AllenC asked me why I didn't like it. It's the only song on Arrival I don't care for.

But, my critique of TBF has always been that there are five or so songs right in the middle of the album that all sound similar (like Beyond the Thunder, with lyrics) and that killed the album for me. It wasn't just the "ballads".

[The_Noble_Cause]

Oh, they can tour, and if they can legally use the name, they will. But, that does not mean they will continue with the success they have now.

If they can replace Perry and be successful, what makes you think losing Cain would in any way impact their success? It wouldn't.

Well, since you already have Jonathan getting an ultimatum, they probably would need Dianne Warren and Jack Blades, and Steve Perry, and whoever else the can find who can write decent songs.

Cain isn't prolific anymore. He hasn't been for some time. If his idea of a good song is "Every Generation" or "Pride of the Family", maybe it's time he packs up his Casio and goes home. The strongest material in the post-Perry era has been Jack Blades co-writes anyway (Higher Place, Never Too Late, I Got A Reason, World Gone Wild ).

[tj]

This is fun. Keep going.

[George_g888]

Cain isn't prolific anymore. He hasn't been for some time. If his idea of a good song is "Every Generation" or "Pride of the Family", maybe it's time he packs up his Casio and goes home. The strongest material in the post-Perry era has been Jack Blades co-writes anyway (Higher Place, Never Too Late, I Got A Reason, World Gone Wild ).

Some of Cain's work off of Revelation is certainly strong too

[The_Noble_Cause]

BTW, Arrival sold three times what Eclipse did. If Arrival had packaged the Vegas DVD with it, it would have been a gold album.

Arrival did sell more than Eclipse. But back then, sales charts were alot more important and it did not even crack the Top 50. You needed a Jeweler's eyepiece to find it on Billboard. Eclipse cracked the top 20. Optics are everything, so Arrival appears to be a bigger loser. The band also had a lot more riding on Arrival. Some lineups call it quits after one poorly-received album. Just Ask Gary Cherone. Or the guy who replaced Phil in Genesis.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Cain isn't prolific anymore. He hasn't been for some time. If his idea of a good song is "Every Generation" or "Pride of the Family", maybe it's time he packs up his Casio and goes home. The strongest material in the post-Perry era has been Jack Blades co-writes anyway (Higher Place, Never Too Late, I Got A Reason, World Gone Wild ).

Some of Cain's work off of Revelation is certainly strong too

Strongly derivative. Like Neal said, different songs, same chords. Turn Down the World and After All These Years are certainly beautiful songs. But I have a feeling that Jonathan would have rather given them to country singers in Nashville instead of wasting them on Journey.

[tj]

BTW, Arrival sold three times what Eclipse did. If Arrival had packaged the Vegas DVD with it, it would have been a gold album.

Arrival did sell more than Eclipse. But back then, sales charts were alot more important and it did not even crack the Top 50. You needed a Jeweler's eyepiece to find it on Billboard. Eclipse cracked the top 20. Optics are everything, so Arrival appears to be a bigger loser. The band also had a lot more riding on Arrival. Some lineups call it quits after one poorly-received album. Just Ask Gary Cherone. Or the guy who replaced Phil in Genesis.

Good points. I don't remember, did either guy sound like the guy that they replaced? I know Hagar didn't sound like DLR, but were either of those bands trying to replace the legacy sound?

[Eric]

Or, perhaps the ballad Neal cut was more like "Why Can't This Night Go On Forever" and actually sounded like a legacy Journey song which could have been a big hit. But, it really doesn't make any difference. Just as Perry trashed songs on ROR, Schon trashed songs on Eclipse....as I said, it's his album and he had control of it (whether "he" is Perry OR Schon).

Trying to recreate a hit ballad every record isn't going to help the overall quality of the release, it isn't going to be a big hit these days.....and there is zero room in a rock show for another ballad anyway. There just isn't a point. They already don't have room to play "Why can't this night go on forever", minor hit "After all these years" or Grammy nominated "When you love a woman".

[Eric]

BTW, Arrival sold three times what Eclipse did. If Arrival had packaged the Vegas DVD with it, it would have been a gold album.

Can't compare different releases effectively to each other because the time between each and the circumstances and variables surrounding each are so different. I can say Eclipse debuted at #13 and Arrival was #56. I can also say what if Arrival had been shipped as aggressively as TBF was. And I can say what if they both had GH packages attached to them.

[tj]

BTW, Arrival sold three times what Eclipse did. If Arrival had packaged the Vegas DVD with it, it would have been a gold album.

Can't compare different releases effectively to each other because the time between each and the circumstances and variables surrounding each are so different. I can say Eclipse debuted at #13 and Arrival was #56. I can also say what if Arrival had been shipped as aggressively as TBF was. And I can say what if they both had GH packages attached to them.

Was thinking the same thing as far as charting. It depends on the well an album is selling at the time compared to what else is out there at that time. I think a lot of great albums might have hit #1 if Thriller hadn't held the spot for 37 weeks. MC Hammer held the #1 spot for 21 weeks. I have to believe that there is a lot better music than that coming out during that time.

[Art Vandelay]

Instead of bickering about a 5 year old album, check out this read...Roger Daltrey puts a good spin on the record business and why The Who will not be releasing any new music. Puts a lot of things into perspective.

http://teamrock.com/news/2016-06-01/rog ... e-an-album

[The_Noble_Cause]

Instead of bickering about a 5 year old album, check out this read..

So what's stopping you from starting a new post on it? This thread is about Eclipse. Fuck The Who.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Trying to recreate a hit ballad every record isn't going to help the overall quality of the release, it isn't going to be a big hit these days.....and there is zero room in a rock show for another ballad anyway. There just isn't a point. They already don't have room to play "Why can't this night go on forever", minor hit "After all these years" or Grammy nominated "When you love a woman".

Ain't this the truth.

[Art Vandelay]

Instead of bickering about a 5 year old album, check out this read..

So what's stopping you from starting a new post on it? This thread is about Eclipse. Fuck The Who.

I posted the article in this thread because it sheds great light on why the albums (that would be plural, because more than just Eclipse is mentioned in this thread) may not have met their sales expectations. It also sheds light on why some members of the band may have washed their hands on recording new music (also discussed in this thread). It's quoted from someone 'in the business', so it was worth sharing.

Have a good day, sir.