DC Extended Universe THREAD

[Monker]

Well, first of all the ratings thing just isn't true. I'm not going to go and look up all of the ratings...but, back then a guy on the SciFi forums did...he took the ratings of the eps in season 4 up to when the announcement happened, and compared them to previous seasons...and he could prove that there just wasn't much change, and compared to other shows on at the time, Farscape was doing as good as any o them. So, pointing to ratings was just BS...the same was said about the original BSG, and it was also BS.

Listen, I loved Farscape. Justin Monjo's episode, "Crackers Don't Matter", is Rod Serling quality TV. Prolly in my top ten hours of television.
I wish the show continued. It took alot of chances and broke alot of rules.

That said....

I never said the ratings dipped in season 4. I said the ratings "were never that great."
The show never even broke a 2.0, despite very heavy promotion by the network.
It routinely got Sliders numbers.
Sliders season 5 had the production budget of a student film, got the same numbers, and it got cancelled.
So it was no surprise that Farscape would also get plugged.
It was only a matter of time.
So, yes, compared to other SyFy (or SciFi as it was then called) programming, Farscape had decent numbers. But nothing to write home about.
Remember - when Farscape debuted the network also had stuff like "Third Wave" which would barely pull a 1.0
SyFy was mismanaged by an idiot named Bonnie Hammer. The network would take hit shows and drive them into the ground.
The Invisible Man series debuted strong and was cancelled within 2 seasons.
SyFy was given a hit show, GvsE (a.k.a. Good vs Evil) from sister network, USA.
Within a year, it was gone.


One (positive) thing I will say about SyFy...their horror anthology series Channel Zero has really been fantastic.

I'm not going to argue what the ratings were. But, that is NOT why it was canceled. If you READ what O'Bannon and Browder BOTH say, after season 3, Farscape was renewed for TWO seasons. They entered renegotiation to try to get a better deal. Instead, they found Henson's parent company would rather cancel the show then pay the money for another season.

That, for me, COMPLETELY confirms what I read from a different source 15yrs ago. I believe that was the truth.

I know you like the later Sliders, but it was a creatively dead show. It was really time for it to be canceled, regardless of ratings.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I'm not going to argue what the ratings were. But, that is NOT why it was canceled. If you READ what O'Bannon and Browder BOTH say, after season 3, Farscape was renewed for TWO seasons. They entered renegotiation to try to get a better deal. Instead, they found Henson's parent company would rather cancel the show then pay the money for another season.

Yes I read it. I don't care what they say. In my informed opinion, Syfy cancelled Farscape to free up money for Battlestar Galactica. There were various claims of SyFy interference in Season 4. Including truly stupid notes from the network that they wanted the show to be more like The Matrix and more like South Park. So there is behind-the-scenes stuff that you or I will never be fully privy to. It was a very expensive show and the ratings were never very strong.

I know you like the later Sliders, but it was a creatively dead show. It was really time for it to be canceled, regardless of ratings.

Define "creatively dead." Many genres shows carry on without their lead star. Ever hear of Doctor Who? In fact, some melodic rock bands even attempt to move on without their lead singer. Imagine that! With science fiction shows, the only thing that really matters in the end is the writing and the ideas.

[verslibre]

And there was nothing in season 1 of Walking Dead that I hadn't see done better already by Romero or Fulci.

There hadn't been a zombie movie on the level of a Romero or Fulci work until The Dead (2010). It's set in Africa and it even featured Romero-style slow zombies. I do like World War Z, though.

TWD had one sweet opportunity to do something on par with Day of the Dead with an elastic timeline, and they let the characterizations and narrative get all out of whack.

[The_Noble_Cause]

There hadn't been a zombie movie on the level of a Romero of Fulci work until The Dead (2010). It's set in Africa and it even featured Romero-style slow zombies. I do like World War Z, though.

The Dead had nice scenery. Otherwise, I found it mostly unengrossing. Did you see the sequel?

I thought 28 Weeks Later raised the bar. That's about it.

[verslibre]

There hadn't been a zombie movie on the level of a Romero of Fulci work until The Dead (2010). It's set in Africa and it even featured Romero-style slow zombies. I do like World War Z, though.

The Dead had nice scenery. Otherwise, I found it mostly unengrossing. Did you see the sequel?

I thought 28 Weeks Later raised the bar. That's about it.

Didn't see the sequel. I liked The Dead because it's a nice throwback to slo-burn zombie flicks.

Zack's Dawn of the Dead remake is better than Resident Evil, though, even with the latter's nods to Romero.

[Monker]

BTW, on Krypton, a member of house Zod did a neck snap.

Obviously, a MOS ripoff...but it was actually kinda cool, and humorous, at the same time. Perfectly, in character for a Zod...no controversy there, LOL.

[YoungJRNYfan]

You DO realize that the reason it's called an "Easter Egg" is because it's is hidden in the movie, right?

Most directors use Easter Eggs for just that..Easter Eggs. Zack used The Wayne Enterprise's Satellite as a wink to the audience that his universe has other hero's in it, something Nolan was never in favor of. Not only was the Wayne Enterprise's a nod to Nolan, it was a turning of a new leaf to say "Other hero's exist in this world." Zack has his ways of adding stuff that isn't there by accident. He's very intricate with every detail.

You can believe that. I prefer to take Snyder at his word when he said:

I'm glad you used that quote givin' that I used that same exact one many times over, but it was always ignored. If you are serious about taking the directors word for it then what Zack is saying in that quote completely contradicts how Batman was forced into things because of Man of Steel's failure's. That's not the case. The discussion's for Man of Steel 2 were underway. Those discussions gradually got to the BvS stage where the studio finally greenlit a film that was in their vault for seemingly forever.

Except I am quoting the director's own words. You are quoting an article from comic book movie dot com.

I was referencing the sign of those times and how much of a hot topic it was for WB/DC to get on with their JL Universe. Man of Steel's success was the deciding factor to that. The decision's to continue were always banking on Man of Steel to go forward. Man of Steel did well enough for them to give the thumbs up. The internet haters created the illusion of Batman being included as if it was a panic situation because of Man of Steel failing. That's not the case. It's what the studio hoped to greenlight. It all came down to how they were going to do it. BvS was announced 30 days after MoS's release. That's fast movement.

Why ‘Man of Steel’ Holds the Key to Warner Bros.’ Future Franchises
https://www.thewrap.com/man-steel-warne ... ill-97021/

"It re-establishes franchise in a huge way," an individual close to Warner Bros. said to TheWrap about the Superman reboot. "If it does well, Warner Bros. can do Justice League including Superman, Superman vs. Batman and another Superman. It opens up at least three different fronts of potential sequels with great synergy for the company in theme parks, licensing and all that."

Jeff Ronbinov quoted in 2013 before the release of Man of Steel:

“I think you’ll see that, going forward, anything can live in this world,” said Robinov. “[Christopher Nolan’s] Batman was deliberately and smartly positioned as a stand-alone. The world they lived in was very isolated without any knowledge of any other superheroes. What Zack and Chris have done with this film is allow you to really introduce other characters into the same world.”

Robinov leaving put a dent in WB's overall stability. Kevin Tsujihara really has shit the bed and Justice League is a prime example of studio mongoloids forming a committee to ruin every product put out in front of them left and right. Hopefully Walter Hamada can keep the scum away from Wan's Aquaman. How Jenkins avoided these morons with Wonder Woman is anyone's guess.

[verslibre]

BTW, on Krypton, a member of house Zod did a neck snap.

Obviously, a MOS ripoff...but it was actually kinda cool, and humorous, at the same time. Perfectly, in character for a Zod...no controversy there, LOL.

A franchise I like: homage.

A franchise I dislike: ripoff.

[YoungJRNYfan]

Krypton was initially going to be a tie-in to Man of Steel. David S. Goyer's entire architecture and feel for Krypton was basically ripped pages out of Man of Steel. They still don't want to do television/cinematic crossovers so they changed the shared aspect and changed the logo to go with it, which at first was the Man of Steel logo. Other than that, the aesthetic to 'Krypton' is Man of Steel's version of Krypton through and through.

[Monker]

BTW, on Krypton, a member of house Zod did a neck snap.

Obviously, a MOS ripoff...but it was actually kinda cool, and humorous, at the same time. Perfectly, in character for a Zod...no controversy there, LOL.

A franchise I like: homage.

A franchise I dislike: ripoff.

Hmmm, what does it mean if you don't "hate" MOS but you still say "rip-off"?

[Monker]

Krypton was initially going to be a tie-in to Man of Steel. David S. Goyer's entire architecture and feel for Krypton was basically ripped pages out of Man of Steel. They still don't want to do television/cinematic crossovers so they changed the shared aspect and changed the logo to go with it, which at first was the Man of Steel logo. Other than that, the aesthetic to 'Krypton' is Man of Steel's version of Krypton through and through.

Yes, I understand that...even the logo "key" thing to the fortress of solitude is the same...and using a dead relative returning as a hologram as a guide. All from MOS. And, the intro bit showed how much they used the comics for inspiration and such.

But, this neck snap looked almost identical. A big fight, ending in a headlock, and then a neck-snap. The only difference is this neck snap was prompted by a plea for mercy from the 'victim" and "we don't ask for mercy..." from the Zod. In MOS, it was prompted by a defeated Zod being an ass and leaving the audience wondering why Superman was killing people, and if he should have done it. For me personally, it was a bit of a 'Mheh" moment in the movie. The TV moment was handled much better.

When Brainiac finally makes a real appearance, it will get really good.

BTW, imagine if they had done a Krypton MOVIE prior to MOS. That would have been a unique was to start the Justice League franchise.

[verslibre]

BTW, on Krypton, a member of house Zod did a neck snap.

Obviously, a MOS ripoff...but it was actually kinda cool, and humorous, at the same time. Perfectly, in character for a Zod...no controversy there, LOL.

A franchise I like: homage.

A franchise I dislike: ripoff.

Hmmm, what does it mean if you don't "hate" MOS but you still say "rip-off"?

I didn't say hate.

[RedWingFan]

How is that so bad compared to how they "introduced" Hawkeye in Thor? You see an unnamed guy move toward a rifle, but stops and chooses a bow. Geeks know who he is. The GA has no clue, until Entertainment and all the Avengers promos fill in the deets. Okay. Fine. And our first sighting of Black Widow involves Tony telling Pepper "I want one." They could have done better than that. IM2 was admittedly rushed.

Fury and Widow joined the MCU in a full-time capacity in Iron Man 2. Second movie in. Al three gather for an impromptu meeting in a donut shop. But that's awesome, right? LOL.

"It's so bad" because Fury, Widow and Hawkeye aren't major characters. Neither is Vision.
Marvel laid the foundation and planted 4 solid pillars in Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, and Cap. Fury, Widow, Hawkeye, Vision, Winter Soldier fill in the gaps and provide plot points. While Marvel slams down even more pillars, Spidey, Black Panther, Ant-Man, Dr. Strange and Guardians.

Now lets look at DC's grand architectural plan. MOS, hey let's throw Batman in there, no need to explain where he is at in this universe. Everybody knows Batman. Adam West, Keaton, Clooney, Bale or the other guy. Pick your favorite. This is that guy.

You got 1 supposed pillar, superman from a widely panned movie. 1 pillar in a solid by comparison Wonder Woman movie, Batman we know from previous iterations.....and emails. Flash, aquaman, cyborg are supposed to be major characters and you're comparing their introductions to Marvel's minor supporting characters. That doesn't tell you something?

WB could probably learn something by reading "The 3 Little Pigs" on how to build something of significance.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Most directors use Easter Eggs for just that..Easter Eggs. Zack used The Wayne Enterprise's Satellite as a wink to the audience that his universe has other hero's in it, something Nolan was never in favor of. Not only was the Wayne Enterprise's a nod to Nolan, it was a turning of a new leaf to say "Other hero's exist in this world." Zack has his ways of adding stuff that isn't there by accident. He's very intricate with every detail.

So it was both an "Easter egg" and a "new leaf"? Holy mixed metaphors Batman! Sounds like it's whatever you want it to be - facts be damned. If the goal was to clearly tell audiences that "other heroes exist in this world" then why make it a blink-and-miss it moment?

I was referencing the sign of those times and how much of a hot topic it was for WB/DC to get on with their JL Universe. Man of Steel's success was the deciding factor to that. The decision's to continue were always banking on Man of Steel to go forward. Man of Steel did well enough for them to give the thumbs up. The internet haters created the illusion of Batman being included as if it was a panic situation because of Man of Steel failing. That's not the case. It's what the studio hoped to greenlight. It all came down to how they were going to do it. BvS was announced 30 days after MoS's release. That's fast movement.

A click-bait article from comicbookmovie dot com is meaningless. I can also find you articles where there is speculation about Joseph Gordon Levitt becoming Robin after Dark Knight Rises. Who the hell cares?

Why ‘Man of Steel’ Holds the Key to Warner Bros.’ Future Franchises
https://www.thewrap.com/man-steel-warne ... ill-97021/

"It re-establishes franchise in a huge way," an individual close to Warner Bros. said to TheWrap about the Superman reboot. "If it does well, Warner Bros. can do Justice League including Superman, Superman vs. Batman and another Superman. It opens up at least three different fronts of potential sequels with great synergy for the company in theme parks, licensing and all that."

Jeff Ronbinov quoted in 2013 before the release of Man of Steel:

“I think you’ll see that, going forward, anything can live in this world,” said Robinov. “[Christopher Nolan’s] Batman was deliberately and smartly positioned as a stand-alone. The world they lived in was very isolated without any knowledge of any other superheroes. What Zack and Chris have done with this film is allow you to really introduce other characters into the same world.”

So the WB suits and bean counters wanted more characters to sell more happy meal toys. And this is surprising because....?

[Monker]

Hmmm, what does it mean if you don't "hate" MOS but you still say "rip-off"?

I didn't say hate. [/quote]

You are correct...my mistake.

But, I don't "dislike" MOS either. I just didn't see it as anything special. It's a good movie and very much worth seeing, IMO. But, it's not like some epic thing that everybody MUST SEE. I like most of the story. There are things on how it is executed that I didn't like. The "neck snap", as I have said, is lazy writing in that it is "shock drama". "OMG, I can't believe Superman just did that! " It's no different than when 6 broke the baby's neck in the BSG mini-series. It is there to get an emotional reaction by shocking you...lazy writing. In fact, BSG did it in almost EVERY EPISODE...and that is why I am sick of it.

But, in Krypton...the neck snap was there for a character developing reason. It wasn't "shocking" at all, if you are following the story. It was good writing and gets a thumbs up from me.

[Monker]

How is that so bad compared to how they "introduced" Hawkeye in Thor? You see an unnamed guy move toward a rifle, but stops and chooses a bow. Geeks know who he is. The GA has no clue, until Entertainment and all the Avengers promos fill in the deets. Okay. Fine. And our first sighting of Black Widow involves Tony telling Pepper "I want one." They could have done better than that. IM2 was admittedly rushed.

Fury and Widow joined the MCU in a full-time capacity in Iron Man 2. Second movie in. Al three gather for an impromptu meeting in a donut shop. But that's awesome, right? LOL.

"It's so bad" because Fury, Widow and Hawkeye aren't major characters. Neither is Vision.
Marvel laid the foundation and planted 4 solid pillars in Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, and Cap. Fury, Widow, Hawkeye, Vision, Winter Soldier fill in the gaps and provide plot points. While Marvel slams down even more pillars, Spidey, Black Panther, Ant-Man, Dr. Strange and Guardians.

Now lets look at DC's grand architectural plan. MOS, hey let's throw Batman in there, no need to explain where he is at in this universe. Everybody knows Batman. Adam West, Keaton, Clooney, Bale or the other guy. Pick your favorite. This is that guy.

You got 1 supposed pillar, superman from a widely panned movie. 1 pillar in a solid by comparison Wonder Woman movie, Batman we know from previous iterations.....and emails. Flash, aquaman, cyborg are supposed to be major characters and you're comparing their introductions to Marvel's minor supporting characters. That doesn't tell you something?

WB could probably learn something by reading "The 3 Little Pigs" on how to build something of significance.

Wow, all good points.

But, maybe they ARE all secondary characters...Batman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Flash were on Steppenwolf for 2/3 of a movie or so...Then, along comes Superman and takes care of him in about 2 seconds. It seems to me they are all secondary to Superman anyway.

[YoungJRNYfan]

Most directors use Easter Eggs for just that..Easter Eggs. Zack used The Wayne Enterprise's Satellite as a wink to the audience that his universe has other hero's in it, something Nolan was never in favor of. Not only was the Wayne Enterprise's a nod to Nolan, it was a turning of a new leaf to say "Other hero's exist in this world." Zack has his ways of adding stuff that isn't there by accident. He's very intricate with every detail.

So it was both an "Easter egg" and a "new leaf"? Holy mixed metaphors Batman! Sounds like it's whatever you want it to be - facts be damned. If the goal was to clearly tell audiences that "other heroes exist in this world" then why make it a blink-and-miss it moment?

I was referencing the sign of those times and how much of a hot topic it was for WB/DC to get on with their JL Universe. Man of Steel's success was the deciding factor to that. The decision's to continue were always banking on Man of Steel to go forward. Man of Steel did well enough for them to give the thumbs up. The internet haters created the illusion of Batman being included as if it was a panic situation because of Man of Steel failing. That's not the case. It's what the studio hoped to greenlight. It all came down to how they were going to do it. BvS was announced 30 days after MoS's release. That's fast movement.

A click-bait article from comicbookmovie dot com is meaningless. I can also find you articles where there is speculation about Joseph Gordon Levitt becoming Robin after Dark Knight Rises. Who the hell cares?

Why ‘Man of Steel’ Holds the Key to Warner Bros.’ Future Franchises
https://www.thewrap.com/man-steel-warne ... ill-97021/

"It re-establishes franchise in a huge way," an individual close to Warner Bros. said to TheWrap about the Superman reboot. "If it does well, Warner Bros. can do Justice League including Superman, Superman vs. Batman and another Superman. It opens up at least three different fronts of potential sequels with great synergy for the company in theme parks, licensing and all that."

Jeff Ronbinov quoted in 2013 before the release of Man of Steel:

“I think you’ll see that, going forward, anything can live in this world,” said Robinov. “[Christopher Nolan’s] Batman was deliberately and smartly positioned as a stand-alone. The world they lived in was very isolated without any knowledge of any other superheroes. What Zack and Chris have done with this film is allow you to really introduce other characters into the same world.”

So the WB suits and bean counters wanted more characters to sell more happy meal toys. And this is surprising because....?

Christ, TNC, you leapfrogged all my points. No need to go further.

[YoungJRNYfan]

Wow, all good points. But, maybe they ARE all secondary characters...Batman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Flash were on Steppenwolf for 2/3 of a movie or so...Then, along comes Superman and takes care of him in about 2 seconds. It seems to me they are all secondary to Superman anyway.

Dude, stop referencing Justice League. It was a goddamn throwaway abortion/abomination to what Zack intended spanning across multiple movies. The studio settled for a watered down generic Marvel film with quips, jokes and fun to distance away from Snyder's vision and to collect end of the year bonus's. I liked aspects of the final JL product but I wish they would have just scrapped the fucking thing and go into the new DC Films banner. JL is a mockery on every level. The studio tried to pull the wool over our eyes. They're just full blown idiots. They have to win me back.

[YoungJRNYfan]

Now lets look at DC's grand architectural plan. MOS, hey let's throw Batman in there, no need to explain where he is at in this universe.

It was clear where this Bruce was at in this universe. It was explained multiple times. Did we seriously need an entire Batman origin film? For real? Fans were even annoyed that Snyder threw in the death of the Wayne's (which was most accurate in almost every film iteration, right down to the movie they saw in theaters that night.) We didn't need to see Bruce's origin for the 100th time. Fans were excited to see Bruce sorrow at Robin's suit in the Batcave. Those were seeds planted for what was to come. The pressure from fans and studio to get to "The Batman" was so overwhelming that it basically ruined Affleck even more than he already was. BvS was intended to establish the world of the future DC Universe set by Flash's warning and build on solo characters from there while Marvel built their solo characters to build an Avengers Universe. It's easy to pinpoint Marvel's buildup because they had 15 films to do it. DC/WB backpedaled on Zack's vision when he was still setting the goddamn thing up in BvS.

Everybody knows Batman. Adam West, Keaton, Clooney, Bale or the other guy. Pick your favorite. This is that guy.

When Iron Man is consistently relevant on the big screen for decades ontop of decades and on a 3rd/4th reboot, let me know. Marvel Studio's is going to experience the wrath of what's becoming rabid and spoiled fanboys that will look to RDJR or Chris Evans as face's of that character where nobody else will ever live up to the original. Film and stories will fluctuate and it will be difficult to create something unique ontop of what has been done. That time will come.

[RedWingFan]

When Iron Man is consistently relevant on the big screen for decades ontop of decades and on a 3rd/4th reboot, let me know. Marvel Studio's is going to experience the wrath of what's becoming rabid and spoiled fanboys that will look to RDJR or Chris Evans as face's of that character where nobody else will ever live up to the original. Film and stories will fluctuate and it will be difficult to create something unique ontop of what has been done. That time will come.

It may. I generally don't like reboots. Superman, Batman and Spiderman all nailed it first time. Marvel has also nailed the shared universe for the past 10 years, if or when it does eventually peter out. If they try to reboot it, I'll probably skip it. Just glad they hit a grand slam the first time.

[Monker]

Wow, all good points. But, maybe they ARE all secondary characters...Batman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Flash were on Steppenwolf for 2/3 of a movie or so...Then, along comes Superman and takes care of him in about 2 seconds. It seems to me they are all secondary to Superman anyway.

Dude, stop referencing Justice League. It was a goddamn throwaway abortion/abomination to what Zack intended spanning across multiple movies. The studio settled for a watered down generic Marvel film with quips, jokes and fun to distance away from Snyder's vision and to collect end of the year bonus's. I liked aspects of the final JL product but I wish they would have just scrapped the fucking thing and go into the new DC Films banner. JL is a mockery on every level. The studio tried to pull the wool over our eyes. They're just full blown idiots. They have to win me back.

First, that was the first time I referenced Justice League.

You guys are in some deep denial. You asked why WB left WW alone. It is a cookie cutter hero story that would fit as is in the MCU. That's why. I'm sure they read the script, recognized it was following the typical pattern of a hero story....and LEFT IT ALONE. That is also at least partially why it was successful in all ways - it followed the path of every memorable hero story before it.

When the BvS trailers were being released, I said they had better figure out what they wanted this movie to be because the first trailer was dark and grim, and the next was light hearted and funny. It seemed to me that their test viewing showed the audience was generally not happy with the dark vision of Snyder.

I argued that WB is in this to make money. If their test audiences are telling them they want a certain thing and this dark and grim vision is not what they want, then they are going to do what they can to give the audience what they want.

In the beginning, you all said that in the DCU, the directors would be left alone to do their own thing...unlike the MCU where directors quit over manipulation. Well, you were obviously wrong about that and have changed your opinion - for very good reasons. But, these manipulations are not frivolous...Snyder simply doesn't know how to tell a good story. Oh, he may have wonderful and cool ideas...but he doesn't know how to take those ideas and put them into film in an entertaining way to general audiences.

You guys explained how he takes the comics and uses the panels in the comics to create scene frame and model his story. I said this is not a comic book and treating it as such is a bad idea. You complain about things like Ragnarok taking things from multiple sources and not getting any of it right to do justice to the stories in the comics. The movie version of Ragnarok tells its own story - it's NOT the comics, it only uses them for inspiration. Allowing themselves to do their own thing in the movies allows Marvel to be more flexible and tell a story that fits the medium and tell it in a way that general audiences enjoy.

The reason JL was so mutilated is because WB just didn't trust Snyder, was skeptical of everything he touched, and didn't like the bits they did see. Josh is not a bad director...he was simply put in a bad spot. He essentially was asked to do the impossible...clean up an almost completed JL and do it in a way that gave an acceptable product to WB. WB should have fired Snyder a long time ago since they obviously did not trust him. Josh could have made a good product if he had it from the beginning.

As for the 15 films prior to Infinity War...which you say nobody remembers. You completely miss the point. Marvel knows exactly what they are doing. It's all about character building and getting the audience to care about these characters. One of you even admitted it when you said nobody really cared when Superman died and their should have been another movie prior to BvS (which I said a long time ago). Yeah, there may be certain plot points in the 15 movies that will help make Infinity War make sense...such as the visions from Scarlet Witch. But, overall, the most important thing is manipulating the emotions of the audience and ensuring they have invested themselves in the characters.

No, you didn't need a Batman origin story. But, it would have helped to have "The Batman" prior to BvS to explain why this Batman is unique...why he is so pissy and easily angered by Superman. You mentioned the scene of the Robin suit. Nobody was sitting on the edge of their seat waiting for that...they already saw it. It really added nothing but confusing the audience about why it was there. Was Robin going to be in the film? It was just one more thing that made this convoluted POS film more confusing to follow.

And, I think you have some more bumps ahead...Shazam looks STUPID so far. Why is he wearing a dress on the back of his uniform? It looks like a huge failure in the making.

[RedWingFan]

Don't remember anyone stating, "Dude, stop referencing Thor 2, or Iron Man 3...." Someone's mad. Lol.

I guess we could call it, the ensemble film not to be spoken of. Lol

[YoungJRNYfan]

Anybody else having trouble with being randomly logged out? I'm losing my saved write-ups.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Christ, TNC, you leapfrogged all my points. No need to go further.

You wrote too much and frankly, I don't care that deeply about this issue. It's pretty much conventional wisdom that DC has fucked up

[verslibre]

How is that so bad compared to how they "introduced" Hawkeye in Thor? You see an unnamed guy move toward a rifle, but stops and chooses a bow. Geeks know who he is. The GA has no clue, until Entertainment and all the Avengers promos fill in the deets. Okay. Fine. And our first sighting of Black Widow involves Tony telling Pepper "I want one." They could have done better than that. IM2 was admittedly rushed.

Fury and Widow joined the MCU in a full-time capacity in Iron Man 2. Second movie in. Al three gather for an impromptu meeting in a donut shop. But that's awesome, right? LOL.

"It's so bad" because Fury, Widow and Hawkeye aren't major characters. Neither is Vision.

Says an uninformed guy who appears to be a casual fan of the movies only but wants to start calling the shots like he's a veteran reader-fan decades in the making.

Col. Nick Fury was Sgt. Nick Fury in his original non-SamJack-inspired comics reboot (which also led directly to casting said actor in the movies). Sgt. Nick Fury led the Howling Commandos in their own ongoing title starting Spring '63 to the summer of '70, after which Marvel continued to publish it, but reprints only, till the end of '81. (That's pretty solid for a WWII-themed comic, though it pales next to DC's Sgt. Rock, who is authentically WWII only, in that he didn't operate outside that venue, and his original stories as a soldier continued all the way to '88! Sgt. Rock & Easy Company did show up in some stories outside their comfort zone in the DCU, though.)

The reason for that is five years earlier in '65, Lee & Kirby created the first story that featured Colonel Nick Fury. After three years of more original Col. Fury stories appearing in Strange Tales, Jim Steranko, one of the genre's greatest luminaries, and who already taken over creative duties, started writing/drawing the new monthly Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. While it only lasted 15 issues, the groundbreaking covers and Steranko's work on the character continue to merit discussion. Fury's continued to enjoy appearances in Avengers and other titles since then, and he's gotten his self-contained miniseries time and again, in and apart from S.H.I.E.L.D.

The last one, Fury: My War Gone By, came out 5-6 years ago. It's really good (Garth Ennis wrote it, and the previous two Fury miniseries). It follows Fury in '70s Viet Nam, where he eventually teams up with a pre-Punisher Frank Castle. Then the narrative shifts to '84 Nicaragua.

The point is Fury is hardly a minor character. He's not superpowered but his presence looms over the Marvel Universe in no small way.

Is Hawkeye a major character? Not really. He's a Green Arrow ripoff in a goofy purple outfit (which is no longer, of course). But he got his own series again thanks to the movies.

Black Widow, OTOH, she's much more important in the context of things. Both Frank Miller and George Pérez have written/drawn her, and those are some fine stories.

Is Vision a major character? Not on the level of the original Avengers, maybe, but the Vision & Scarlet Witch tandem has had a lot of face time over the years.

Marvel laid the foundation and planted 4 solid pillars in Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, and Cap. Fury, Widow, Hawkeye, Vision, Winter Soldier fill in the gaps and provide plot points. While Marvel slams down even more pillars, Spidey, Black Panther, Ant-Man, Dr. Strange and Guardians.

^This is how I know you're just going by ticket sales, not actual content. Ant-Man's never enjoyed major popularity in the comics. I think he's going to operate at the level of Hawkeye, but he'll get a slight boost thanks to Wasp because female superheroes are set to be the rage now.

Now lets look at DC's grand architectural plan. MOS, hey let's throw Batman in there, no need to explain where he is at in this universe. Everybody knows Batman. Adam West, Keaton, Clooney, Bale or the other guy. Pick your favorite. This is that guy.

LOL, nobody remembers Clooney except as the punchline of the single worst Batman screen iteration out there. What, no love for the Kilmer?

"No need to explain"? Wait for the solo movie. That's what they did with Black Panther. Nobody seemed to mind that they had no clue what the source of his enhanced abilities were beyond those razor sharp claws.

Btw, Batman's backstory was meant to be concise in BvS, and we got what we needed. His parents' death had been replaced by other sources of anguish, hence the brutality. Batman's enjoyed many arcs in the comics. Read some, and then maybe BvS won't come off like the Lament Configuration.

You got 1 supposed pillar, superman from a widely panned movie. 1 pillar in a solid by comparison Wonder Woman movie, Batman we know from previous iterations.....and emails. Flash, aquaman, cyborg are supposed to be major characters and you're comparing their introductions to Marvel's minor supporting characters. That doesn't tell you something?

Like I explained, "minor supporting characters" is for the most part incorrect. You're only exposing your own ignorance by referring that way to characters not named Spider-Man, Captain America and Iron Man. And we already know Spidey, the X-Men, and the Fantastic Four are, or were, more famous than Iron Man, Thor, Ant-Man and even Strange. But Marvel couldn't use them, and that's why Civil War ended up being half-assed. It needed all the characters to tell the story. You got the reduced calories version and you think it rocks because 1) it has a lot of characters doing the two-step on the tarmac, and 2) you don't know better.

WB could probably learn something by reading "The 3 Little Pigs" on how to build something of significance.

You're just rambling and talking shit.

[verslibre]

Wow, all good points.

Aye, a bastion of wisdom, that one.

But, maybe they ARE all secondary characters...Batman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Flash were on Steppenwolf for 2/3 of a movie or so...Then, along comes Superman and takes care of him in about 2 seconds. It seems to me they are all secondary to Superman anyway.

I guess they had a real problem handling an extraterrestrial threat, eh? In the comics, Steppenwolf kicks ALL their asses. While the redo of his guise in the movie was subpar, that's the only thing that was held over: that he is a viable threat. Kryptonians under a yellow sun are nigh-invincible. Not sure why that's hard to understand. Should Stepp have been more of a threat to the returned Superman? In Snyder's version, I've no doubt he was. In Whedon's version, he's an intergalactic punching bag who suddenly is overcome by his parademons because they smell his "fear." That was a major cop-out, and that was all Joss.

[verslibre]

You guys are in some deep denial. You asked why WB left WW alone. It is a cookie cutter hero story that would fit as is in the MCU. That's why. I'm sure they read the script, recognized it was following the typical pattern of a hero story....and LEFT IT ALONE. That is also at least partially why it was successful in all ways - it followed the path of every memorable hero story before it.

This again. You can stop regurgitating, it's not wholesome. Wonder Woman's origin predates the vast majority of most 20th century superheroes, and Marston's motivations for shaping her were entirely his own.

When the BvS trailers were being released, I said they had better figure out what they wanted this movie to be because the first trailer was dark and grim, and the next was light hearted and funny. It seemed to me that their test viewing showed the audience was generally not happy with the dark vision of Snyder.

One screening for WB execs had everyone high-fiving each other. They asked for some reshoots later, but for all intents and purposes, they seemed confident in the film itself, just not the running time. They didn't want to release a three-hour film, and I think that cost them something. They should have left in that key Clark Kent scene.

I argued that WB is in this to make money.

I countered that film studios are in this to make money. They're businesses, not charities.

In the beginning, you all said that in the DCU, the directors would be left alone to do their own thing...unlike the MCU where directors quit over manipulation. Well, you were obviously wrong about that and have changed your opinion - for very good reasons. But, these manipulations are not frivolous...Snyder simply doesn't know how to tell a good story. Oh, he may have wonderful and cool ideas...but he doesn't know how to take those ideas and put them into film in an entertaining way to general audiences.

That's just bullshit. Dawn of the Dead is a cohesive narrative. 300 is a cohesive narrative (and I'm not even a fan of that movie). Watchmen is a cohesive narrative. Man of Steel is a cohesive narrative. Love it or hate it, Sucker Punch is a cohesive narrative. BvS was similarly cohesive in that I had no problem knowing where things were going. If my background as a fan played into it, so be it.

You guys explained how he takes the comics and uses the panels in the comics to create scene frame and model his story. I said this is not a comic book and treating it as such is a bad idea. You complain about things like Ragnarok taking things from multiple sources and not getting any of it right to do justice to the stories in the comics. The movie version of Ragnarok tells its own story - it's NOT the comics, it only uses them for inspiration. Allowing themselves to do their own thing in the movies allows Marvel to be more flexible and tell a story that fits the medium and tell it in a way that general audiences enjoy.

That movie essentially plays out like a skeleton: a major death, a reappearance by a key figure who becomes a fan, our heroes get banished, Hulk is at "the other place" (with no explanation apart from "The Devil's Anus"), and they've got to figure out how to get back. We only see one arena battle, between the film's titular hero and the other big draw: Hulk. We don't even get to see Korg do anything interesting except talk like Taika, because that's who voiced him. Meanwhile, Hela trashes Asgard (mostly off-camera). Cue the final battle. That should have been two movies, easily. It could have been two three-hour movies. It played out like a synopsis with incidental scenes and a climax. The best part of the movie is the opening fight with Surtur and his creatures, and I still didn't care for the silly dialogue.

The reason JL was so mutilated is because WB just didn't trust Snyder, was skeptical of everything he touched, and didn't like the bits they did see.

More revisionist claptrap. WB was 99-100% onboard with his plans (more or less co-conceived with Geoff Johns, who should be DC's Kevin Feige, but for some reason is not). Warner Bros. wanted a darker-toned universe to contrast with Marvel's. They should have stuck to their guns. It's like the guy who already has a sweet-looking honeypot hanging on his arm, but he keeps glancing at the douchebag at the bar with the three platinum blonde fake-breasted skanks, and decides he wanted some of that action, too. Marvel could have been the "fun superhero" guys, and DC could have produced darker, more serious fare, eventually getting to their great horror superhero roster like Swamp Thing, The Spectre and JLDark. But some people got switched out, and other people opted to change their minds. Nothing is static in Hollywood. (Look at Colin Trevorrow leaving Star Wars IX. He didn't agree with what they were doing in The Last Jedi.)

Josh is not a bad director...he was simply put in a bad spot. He essentially was asked to do the impossible...clean up an almost completed JL and do it in a way that gave an acceptable product to WB. WB should have fired Snyder a long time ago since they obviously did not trust him. Josh could have made a good product if he had it from the beginning.

He's not a good director, either. Seems like a one-trick pony, honestly. And don't bring up Serenity. That shit put me to sleep.

Remember the Mystic Square puzzle? That's what Joss did with Justice League: He rearranged the tiles (scenes/narrative) into a different order. He reshot stuff that didn't require it, wrote new crap to stick in front of/between/after, and even reshot the group scene. He repurposed other scenes, like Aquaman rescuing the boatman — it was supposed to appear at the end in a montage. That's why the movie has all of these oddball tonal shifts. It's not consistent.

As for the 15 films prior to Infinity War...which you say nobody remembers. You completely miss the point. Marvel knows exactly what they are doing. It's all about character building and getting the audience to care about these characters. One of you even admitted it when you said nobody really cared when Superman died and their should have been another movie prior to BvS (which I said a long time ago). Yeah, there may be certain plot points in the 15 movies that will help make Infinity War make sense...such as the visions from Scarlet Witch. But, overall, the most important thing is manipulating the emotions of the audience and ensuring they have invested themselves in the characters.

Downey, Johansson, Evans and Hemsworth are the ones most associated with their respectives roles as IM/BW/CA/TO — and the newest addition is Boseman/BP. If they recast anyone/everyone else, nobody would give a shit, unless it was Pratt/S-L. I think he has more job security than Hemsworth. When Captain Marvel arrives, Larson will be locked in.

And, I think you have some more bumps ahead...Shazam looks STUPID so far. Why is he wearing a dress on the back of his uniform? It looks like a huge failure in the making.

I dunno, why is he wearing a dress? Was it a gag reel goof? Or is that his white hoodie/cloak that will look much better in post? Most things look less than adequate during principal photography. Scarlet Witch throws her arm up during a scene in Infinity War in footage that wasn't meant for us to see. The truck behind looks like it's being pulled by a rope. When it's finished, and we see it from the proper angle, it'll look convincing.

[RedWingFan]

Nick Fury = no superpowers, Black Widow = no superpowers, Hawkeye = no superpowers.

Cyborg= superpowers, Aquaman= superpowers, Flash= superpowers.

These are YOUR comparisons in lame character development on the big screen. This is reason #1 why DC is shitting the bed.

Make jokes about the 3 of them meeting at a doughnut shop. They're just fucking people. At least there was dialog and interaction. Not fucking emails about....oooh, METAHUMANS. lol

[verslibre]

Look at you dodge the "aren't major characters" non-point you tried to make. A little ain't enough, as David Lee Roth once sang. Go back to watching reruns of The Incredible Hulk, bruh.

[RedWingFan]

Look at you dodge the "aren't major characters" non-point you tried to make. A little ain't enough, as David Lee Roth once sang. Go back to watching reruns of The Incredible Hulk, bruh.

In the movieverse they aren't. Nick fury deserves his own standalone film about as much as agent coulson.

Even so, marvel thought of a way to do better than emails. That was a pretty cool lightning bolt on Flash's though.