Breaking the Band: JOURNEY

[jrnyman28]

Someone else mentioned Eric Martin. That is also a name I have heard that was considered. He toured with Journey a bit and Herbie was his manager...so I can see him being considered, too.

Neal and Eric also recorded together on the song on the Teachers soundtrack.

[Journey/Survivor]

That is all true. Also, Jonathan is a cowriter on Megaforce from 707, when Chalfant was a member back in 1982. But, I do not know how much they worked together on that song.

Keith Olsen brought Cain in to do the intro, as part of the Megaforce movie soundtrack. Cain brought in a pre-recorded piece - he didn't actually play it in the studio. 707 was unaware that Keith had negotiated a co-write credit to Cain for this, and were pretty pissed about it.

One time when I was speaking with one of the members of Loverboy (I won't bother naming which one) I brought up the fact that Cain co-wrote "This Could Be The Night," and that member of Loverboy seemed annoyed that I brought up that fact. Not that he was seriously pissed about it, just a little annoyed that I mentioned it.

All I was doing was asking how it was working with Cain.

[Onestepper]

That is all true. Also, Jonathan is a cowriter on Megaforce from 707, when Chalfant was a member back in 1982. But, I do not know how much they worked together on that song.

Keith Olsen brought Cain in to do the intro, as part of the Megaforce movie soundtrack. Cain brought in a pre-recorded piece - he didn't actually play it in the studio. 707 was unaware that Keith had negotiated a co-write credit to Cain for this, and were pretty pissed about it.

One time when I was speaking with one of the members of Loverboy (I won't bother naming which one) I brought up the fact that Cain co-wrote "This Could Be The Night," and that member of Loverboy seemed annoyed that I brought up that fact. Not that he was seriously pissed about it, just a little annoyed that I mentioned it.

All I was doing was asking how it was working with Cain.

Reminds me of a radio interview I did with Michael Bolton. After about a 5 min interview (on his tour bus at a state fair), he agreed to talk to us some more right after the break. As we were in the break, I asked him if he minded talking about working with Cain and Neal on the Sitting on the Dock of the Bay tune, which had recently been released. He seemed irritated and he said he really didn't want to talk about that. I thought it was odd given that it had peaked so high on the charts, and was one of his releases and "hits" from the album. They also both played on a couple of other tracks on the album.

He seemed generally irritated at the mere mention of them. It could have been that maybe everyone was asking him about it, was tired of talking about it, and he wanted to focus on other things. His level of arrogance during the interview was notable.

[Journey/Survivor]

I just read the other day that Jimmy Barnes had issues with Cain when Cain produced Barnes' Freight Train Heart album.

Maybe Cain rubs a lot of people the wrong way?

[JourneyHard]

Neal and Jon wanted Perry back in 1985 so much that they gave him total control. I think Neal and Jon were stupid to do this. Let's examine what happened. Perry made two more albums with Journey, Raised on Radio and Trial By Fire, of which the current band only plays one song, Be Good To Yourself, from those two albums in recent concerts. If they had kicked Perry out in 1985 and gotten any of the singers mentioned by this board, Journey would have probably made three albums into the early 1990's and had much more material they wanted to play in concerts today. Instead of going to Van Halen, what is Sammy Hagar was the new lead singer of Journey? Neal could have so much fun with Jon, Sammy and himself on guitar. They could have done some real complex songs.
Perry should have played it cool and just done the Freedom album like Herbie wanted and then Perry could have called it quits and everything would be cool. Now, looking back, it looks like Perry destroyed Journey. Perry is the one who fractured Journey by kicking Ross Valory and Steve Smith out of the band. Now, Jon and Neal did the same thing. I guess history repeats itself.

[Onestepper]

Neal and Jon wanted Perry back in 1985 so much that they gave him total control. I think Neal and Jon were stupid to do this. Let's examine what happened. Perry made two more albums with Journey, Raised on Radio and Trial By Fire, of which the current band only plays one song, Be Good To Yourself, from those two albums in recent concerts. If they had kicked Perry out in 1985 and gotten any of the singers mentioned by this board, Journey would have probably made three albums into the early 1990's and had much more material they wanted to play in concerts today. Instead of going to Van Halen, what is Sammy Hagar was the new lead singer of Journey? Neal could have so much fun with Jon, Sammy and himself on guitar. They could have done some real complex songs.
Perry should have played it cool and just done the Freedom album like Herbie wanted and then Perry could have called it quits and everything would be cool. Now, looking back, it looks like Perry destroyed Journey. Perry is the one who fractured Journey by kicking Ross Valory and Steve Smith out of the band. Now, Jon and Neal did the same thing. I guess history repeats itself.

So you think Sammy Hagar joining Journey would have been a solid move? And you think Hagar banging out tunes from Escape and Frontiers would have worked? Lord help me.

[MysteryMountain]

I came to the realization after this that, Escape was the last TRUE Journey album. Frontiers was the last Journey album. ROR was a Perry album. Everything since doesn't even count.

I think everything the band has done post-SP has been pretty decent.

I didn't mean they weren't good, I just mean, in terms of control. I think Escape was the last great compilation album by Journey (meaning all main players probably had a say). After that, clearly Perry was the driving force, making Herbie pull the artwork or the title - remember, Perry wanted both removed. ROR was clearly Steve driving after firing long time members (again, his direction to do this). You may be right though, as I'm sure Neal & Jon played larger roles with post Perry stuff - so, self-correction there - just didn't know how to categorize it - plus I was bitter after watching that. lol

Personally, I wish Neal would just run with a JTT project, the best thing that's been done since Escape.

He can't. That's what started all these lawsuits and Ross/Smitty getting fired.

This bugs me to no end. What do those guys have to do with Neal doing Journey tunes with a different lineup? Isn't that pretty much Journey today?? I didn't read up on that too much - if anyone could break it down to a quick paragraph I'd read it, or point me to a good breakdown on this forum, i'd be happy to read it.

[jrnyman28]

Personally, I wish Neal would just run with a JTT project, the best thing that's been done since Escape.

He can't. That's what started all these lawsuits and Ross/Smitty getting fired.

This bugs me to no end. What do those guys have to do with Neal doing Journey tunes with a different lineup? Isn't that pretty much Journey today?? I didn't read up on that too much - if anyone could break it down to a quick paragraph I'd read it, or point me to a good breakdown on this forum, i'd be happy to read it.

The corporation that controls the Journey trademark felt JTT's name was infringing on the Journey mark, possibly confusing the audience, and harming the business.

[Monker]

The corporation that controls the Journey trademark felt JTT's name was infringing on the Journey mark, possibly confusing the audience, and harming the business.

I wish we could look at that complaint, to see exactly what Nightmare was complaining about. Because, I doubt very much that it is just the "Journey Through Time" name that caused an issue.

For example, the guy who owns the trademark to "Little River Band" sued Birtles-Shorrock-Goble because the had "Original Voices of the Little River Band" where "Little River Band" was in too big of a font. HE WON.

So, I think there is more to it than the word "Journey" being part of the "Journey Through Time" name. You would need to read the complaint, and see Neal's filing to really understand it.

[MysteryMountain]

The corporation that controls the Journey trademark felt JTT's name was infringing on the Journey mark, possibly confusing the audience, and harming the business.

I wish we could look at that complaint, to see exactly what Nightmare was complaining about. Because, I doubt very much that it is just the "Journey Through Time" name that caused an issue.

For example, the guy who owns the trademark to "Little River Band" sued Birtles-Shorrock-Goble because the had "Original Voices of the Little River Band" where "Little River Band" was in too big of a font. HE WON.

So, I think there is more to it than the word "Journey" being part of the "Journey Through Time" name. You would need to read the complaint, and see Neal's filing to really understand it.

Was it filed in Federal Court, or State? Is it public?

[Monker]

Was it filed in Federal Court, or State? Is it public?

If you go to the United States Patent and Trademark Office website, you can lookup "Journey Through Time" and find Neal's filing for the trademark. It looks like when you file for a trademark the office opens up that filing for opposition. If it is opposed they hold a hearing and then decide if the trademark is granted or not.l Neal's filing shows one opposition, which I assume is Nightmare's...but I have not found the opposition yet.

[Monker]

Was it filed in Federal Court, or State? Is it public?

If you go to the United States Patent and Trademark Office website, you can lookup "Journey Through Time" and find Neal's filing for the trademark. It looks like when you file for a trademark the office opens up that filing for opposition. If it is opposed they hold a hearing and then decide if the trademark is granted or not.l Neal's filing shows one opposition, which I assume is Nightmare's...but I have not found the opposition yet.

Just to add to the above:

I dug around and found the court records for this "opposition". From what I read, they didn't go into any more detail than what we already know...that the trademark could be confused with Journey's trademark, etc. However, when you file for the trademark, you file the "words" and graphic. In the filing, the graphic is pretty generic. I also found that this is suspended.

Neal's attorney's filed to suspend the trademark complaint because of the other legal stuff happening. What they are arguing is that Nightmare Inc. owns the trademark, and Elmo is a granted licensor of the mark. Since Neal and Jonathan were on the board at Nightmare and had a majority control of decisions, and they were the only partners left in Elmo, this Trademark opposition is invalid...

...but, that all depends on how these other court cases are ruled. Therefore, they suspended the trademark dispute until after the other cases are resolved and a clear owner of the Journey mark is named by the courts. And, BTW, there is a document that shows the pending court dates for the Trademark dispute...it starts in May and goes all the way until late next year...but those are all suspended. So, this is going to be an issue well into 2022.

After reading this, a few things really make sense. Obviously, they needed control of Nightmare to file the Trademark complaint. I can see how Neal felt it was a "coup to take over Journey"...however, I can see how the people involved with Nightmare saw JTT as a threat to Journey...because of how Neal was talking about it, how he was turning it into an alternative to Journey. Just look at how some of the fans were reacting, calling it "the way Journey should be" and such. They were also obviously going to record...one of the trademarks was for CD's and other media. So, Nightmare had to get Neal and Jonathan out in order to file the trademark complaint. That was their motive, not to take over the band. That threw Neal under the bus...he couldn't use JTT as his creative outlet. So, he fires Steve Smith and Ross and justifies it with a conspiracy theory. Then Ross counters and asks the court to decide who owns the Journey trademark.

The bottom line in all of this is: Are Neal and Jonathan going to be reinstated as part of Nightmare's board? If not, then all of this stands and JTT is definitely dead. If they are part of the board, then Neal wins the Trademark for JTT and can do whatever he wants with it...and Nightmare can't stop it. In the meantime, Neal can play with Journey and see what he is allowed to do, and what Nightmare and the courts can stop him from doing.

Here is a link to the documents within the Trademark complaint:
https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno ... 17&pty=OPP

Not sure if that will work, so here is some of the text from the request to suspend:

Summary of this Opposition Proceeding
Opposer Nightmare Productions, Inc. (“Nightmare” or “Opposer”) is a corporate entity
used by the American rock band Journey, the principal founding members of which were Neal
Schon, Jonathan Cain, and Stephen Perry. Nightmare is the registered owner of the JOURNEY
trademark for musical performances and recordings by the Journey band (U.S. Reg. Nos.
3168509 and 3189220), and it is also the licensor of the mark to the band member partnership
known as Elmo Partners. Stephen Perry is no longer a member of the Journey band; hence the
JOURNEY mark is controlled by Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain by virtue of their positions as
President and Secretary, respectively, of Nightmare, their majority control as two of the three
sitting directors of Nightmare, their interest in Elmo Partners, and their continuing performances
as the Journey band. Opposer’s corporate counsel filed this opposition proceeding without the
authorization or permission of Neal Schon or Jonathan Cain. Opposer seeks to block Applicant
Schon Productions, Inc., a separate corporation owned and controlled by Neal Schon, from
registering NEAL SCHON JOURNEY THROUGH TIME, which is the trademark Neal Schon
has been using in connection with his individual musical performances and related goods and
services.

[JourneyHard]

So you think Sammy Hagar joining Journey would have been a solid move? And you think Hagar banging out tunes from Escape and Frontiers would have worked? Lord help me.

Sammy did great with David Lee Roth's Van Halen material. It would have been different with Sammy in Journey, but he did a great job on Whiter Shade of Pale with HSAS. I just think they needed somebody else because Perry took control and neutered Neal's guitar.

[Onestepper]

So you think Sammy Hagar joining Journey would have been a solid move? And you think Hagar banging out tunes from Escape and Frontiers would have worked? Lord help me.

Sammy did great with David Lee Roth's Van Halen material. It would have been different with Sammy in Journey, but he did a great job on Whiter Shade of Pale with HSAS. I just think they needed somebody else because Perry took control and neutered Neal's guitar.

I mean, I get what you're saying. But I just don't think they could replace Perry coming off the success of Frontiers. That would have made absolutely no sense. They were one of the top bands in the world at that point. Should they have just completely given all control to Perry, of course not. But the ROR album and tour was huge (until Perry quit on them), just because of the success they had been building over the previous years. The average ticket buying fan didn't care who the bassist or drummer was, and they didn't care that Perry basically produced a solo album under the Journey name. I guess if I were going to say they should have replaced him, or not had him come back, was for the reunion TBF, but even that is a stretch. I certainly believe his control over making that record produced one of their most lopsided, terribly produced albums they put out with Perry.

[MysteryMountain]

Was it filed in Federal Court, or State? Is it public?

If you go to the United States Patent and Trademark Office website, you can lookup "Journey Through Time" and find Neal's filing for the trademark. It looks like when you file for a trademark the office opens up that filing for opposition. If it is opposed they hold a hearing and then decide if the trademark is granted or not.l Neal's filing shows one opposition, which I assume is Nightmare's...but I have not found the opposition yet.

Just to add to the above:

I dug around and found the court records for this "opposition". From what I read, they didn't go into any more detail than what we already know...that the trademark could be confused with Journey's trademark, etc. However, when you file for the trademark, you file the "words" and graphic. In the filing, the graphic is pretty generic. I also found that this is suspended.

Neal's attorney's filed to suspend the trademark complaint because of the other legal stuff happening. What they are arguing is that Nightmare Inc. owns the trademark, and Elmo is a granted licensor of the mark. Since Neal and Jonathan were on the board at Nightmare and had a majority control of decisions, and they were the only partners left in Elmo, this Trademark opposition is invalid...

...but, that all depends on how these other court cases are ruled. Therefore, they suspended the trademark dispute until after the other cases are resolved and a clear owner of the Journey mark is named by the courts. And, BTW, there is a document that shows the pending court dates for the Trademark dispute...it starts in May and goes all the way until late next year...but those are all suspended. So, this is going to be an issue well into 2022.

After reading this, a few things really make sense. Obviously, they needed control of Nightmare to file the Trademark complaint. I can see how Neal felt it was a "coup to take over Journey"...however, I can see how the people involved with Nightmare saw JTT as a threat to Journey...because of how Neal was talking about it, how he was turning it into an alternative to Journey. Just look at how some of the fans were reacting, calling it "the way Journey should be" and such. They were also obviously going to record...one of the trademarks was for CD's and other media. So, Nightmare had to get Neal and Jonathan out in order to file the trademark complaint. That was their motive, not to take over the band. That threw Neal under the bus...he couldn't use JTT as his creative outlet. So, he fires Steve Smith and Ross and justifies it with a conspiracy theory. Then Ross counters and asks the court to decide who owns the Journey trademark.

The bottom line in all of this is: Are Neal and Jonathan going to be reinstated as part of Nightmare's board? If not, then all of this stands and JTT is definitely dead. If they are part of the board, then Neal wins the Trademark for JTT and can do whatever he wants with it...and Nightmare can't stop it. In the meantime, Neal can play with Journey and see what he is allowed to do, and what Nightmare and the courts can stop him from doing.

Here is a link to the documents within the Trademark complaint:
https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno ... 17&pty=OPP

Not sure if that will work, so here is some of the text from the request to suspend:

Summary of this Opposition Proceeding
Opposer Nightmare Productions, Inc. (“Nightmare” or “Opposer”) is a corporate entity
used by the American rock band Journey, the principal founding members of which were Neal
Schon, Jonathan Cain, and Stephen Perry. Nightmare is the registered owner of the JOURNEY
trademark for musical performances and recordings by the Journey band (U.S. Reg. Nos.
3168509 and 3189220), and it is also the licensor of the mark to the band member partnership
known as Elmo Partners. Stephen Perry is no longer a member of the Journey band; hence the
JOURNEY mark is controlled by Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain by virtue of their positions as
President and Secretary, respectively, of Nightmare, their majority control as two of the three
sitting directors of Nightmare, their interest in Elmo Partners, and their continuing performances
as the Journey band. Opposer’s corporate counsel filed this opposition proceeding without the
authorization or permission of Neal Schon or Jonathan Cain. Opposer seeks to block Applicant
Schon Productions, Inc., a separate corporation owned and controlled by Neal Schon, from
registering NEAL SCHON JOURNEY THROUGH TIME, which is the trademark Neal Schon
has been using in connection with his individual musical performances and related goods and
services.

Thank you very much for the summary & info.

[JourneyHard]

I mean, I get what you're saying. But I just don't think they could replace Perry coming off the success of Frontiers. That would have made absolutely no sense. They were one of the top bands in the world at that point. Should they have just completely given all control to Perry, of course not. But the ROR album and tour was huge (until Perry quit on them), just because of the success they had been building over the previous years. The average ticket buying fan didn't care who the bassist or drummer was, and they didn't care that Perry basically produced a solo album under the Journey name. I guess if I were going to say they should have replaced him, or not had him come back, was for the reunion TBF, but even that is a stretch. I certainly believe his control over making that record produced one of their most lopsided, terribly produced albums they put out with Perry.

It didn't have to be Sammy Hagar. They could have gotten any of those other singers people on here mentioned. I knew people who had tickets to Raised on Radio concert and didn't bother going. They knew the show wasn't going to rock as much as Escape Tour and Frontiers Tour. So, what good is having Perry if the concert blows? I understand we are stuck with what we got, but it is not good to give anybody total control except maybe Herbie.

[Sighlence]

I mean, I get what you're saying. But I just don't think they could replace Perry coming off the success of Frontiers. That would have made absolutely no sense. They were one of the top bands in the world at that point. Should they have just completely given all control to Perry, of course not. But the ROR album and tour was huge (until Perry quit on them), just because of the success they had been building over the previous years. The average ticket buying fan didn't care who the bassist or drummer was, and they didn't care that Perry basically produced a solo album under the Journey name. I guess if I were going to say they should have replaced him, or not had him come back, was for the reunion TBF, but even that is a stretch. I certainly believe his control over making that record produced one of their most lopsided, terribly produced albums they put out with Perry.

It didn't have to be Sammy Hagar. They could have gotten any of those other singers people on here mentioned. I knew people who had tickets to Raised on Radio concert and didn't bother going. They knew the show wasn't going to rock as much as Escape Tour and Frontiers Tour. So, what good is having Perry if the concert blows? I understand we are stuck with what we got, but it is not good to give anybody total control except maybe Herbie.

Lol...wtf are you talking about? Did you even go to a ROR show? It did not “blow”.

[Andrew]

Someone else mentioned Eric Martin. That is also a name I have heard that was considered. He toured with Journey a bit and Herbie was his manager...so I can see him being considered, too.

Neal and Eric also recorded together on the song on the Teachers soundtrack.

They did 2 tracks together - I Can't Stop The Fire & No Turning Back (as featured on MRCD5)

[JourneyHard]

Lol...wtf are you talking about? Did you even go to a ROR show? It did not “blow”.

Compared to Escape Tour and Frontiers Tour, Raised on Radio tour did indeed blow because they didn't play Chain Reaction or Escape or any of the rockers except Stone In Love. Instead of covering Jailhouse Rock, they should have covered Jimi Hendrix. Perry was in total control and wanted the spotlight on him and NOT on Neal.

[Memorex]

Someone else mentioned Eric Martin. That is also a name I have heard that was considered. He toured with Journey a bit and Herbie was his manager...so I can see him being considered, too.

Neal and Eric also recorded together on the song on the Teachers soundtrack.

They did 2 tracks together - I Can't Stop The Fire & No Turning Back (as featured on MRCD5)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxvF2o2ZZ64

[kgdjpubs]

I just read the other day that Jimmy Barnes had issues with Cain when Cain produced Barnes' Freight Train Heart album.

Maybe Cain rubs a lot of people the wrong way?

Barnes' issues stemmed from the vocal recording process. His comment was that he didn't recognize his own vocal by the time it was done, so he re-recorded the vocals later. I don't think it was a personality issue as much as the fact that Jimmy Barnes and Steve Perry are very different singers, albeit with some common influences. What works for one doesn't necessarily work with the other.

[Monker]

Lol...wtf are you talking about? Did you even go to a ROR show? It did not “blow”.

Compared to Escape Tour and Frontiers Tour, Raised on Radio tour did indeed blow because they didn't play Chain Reaction or Escape or any of the rockers except Stone In Love. Instead of covering Jailhouse Rock, they should have covered Jimi Hendrix. Perry was in total control and wanted the spotlight on him and NOT on Neal.

Well, this is just IMO...

I don't think Perry necessarily wanted the spotlight on him. What happened to get Perry back into the band, Neal and Jonathan gave him EVERYTHING. He had control of the direction of the songs...the 'concept' of ROR, he vetoed and restarted the album multiple times, he was allowed to fire/hire members of the band, he even had control of the album cover art.

Yeah, Neal got sick of it in the end. There is a quote where Neal says he HATED Steve Perry during the recording of ROR. He would show up in the studio and do his solo in one take and then leave. Neal removed himself from the creative process. But, he and Jonathan gave Perry that power when the lured him back into the band after Street Talk was such a success.

I don't think I have read or heard much about who made the decisions on the tour...what songs to sing, etc. I'm sure Herbie still had a lot to do with the presentation of the live show...but I doubt he chose the songs. "Jailhouse Rock" fits into the 'concept' of ROR...but I don't know who suggested it. When I look at the setlists posted here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raised_on_Radio_Tour

...they don't look that bad. IMO, they should not have been doing the Perry solo songs...But, maybe he was in control of the setlist, too...it would not surprise me.

I didn't like "Jailhouse Rock", and I hated what they did to LTS. But, it was all in line with the concept...STEVE PERRY's concept. When Perry says he likes ROR the best of the Journey albums, I can understand why. He was able to do exactly what he wanted...everything he wanted. THAT is what it was about...controlling the music....not sharing the spotlight.

[kgdjpubs]

...they don't look that bad. IMO, they should not have been doing the Perry solo songs...But, maybe he was in control of the setlist, too...it would not surprise me.

If they didn't want to play Perry solo stuff, they shouldn't have played Schon/Hammer's No More Lies during the Frontiers tour or stuff from the Babys on Escape. Schon said that after they played that stuff, when Perry wanted to play his solo stuff for ROR, they couldn't really say no.