OT: The resurrection

[RedWingFan]

And do you still believe in Santa Claus...?

I believe you will one day have to answer for your childish comments!

[Rhiannon]

In studying all this I, personally, found there to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea of Biblical story as a solid fact.

Name ONE piece of "evidence".

Re-read what I said, removing your harsh bias, understand my words, and then ask me again.

[Indyjoe]

I meant with regard to what to believe... the Truth = God's Word. I do believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, btw.

So if it is a literal story then why didn't Adam and Eve die when they ate of the tree...?

They would eventually suffer a physical death which the process of which was set in motion when they ate the fruit(they sinned). As well as everything else that would and will eventually die physically.

[Rhiannon]

So if it is a literal story then why didn't Adam and Eve die when they ate of the tree...?

If you take the story for the purposes in which it was meant (to tell a story and give a lesson, since it is from the Torah) then they did die, as in their life as it was promised them was stripped away and they died of that life and were exiled into a new one. Death and birth and rebirth isn't always cut and dry. Open your mind to alternative explainations instead of trying to force your perception of inaccuracy on those who would think otherwise.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I took a brief 16 week class in Koine Greek (1 time a week) offered from a seminary professor - l loved it, but need to dig much deeper. Another class is being offered that is First Year Greek which will be much more difficult. Yikes! That brief one was one of the hardest classes I have ever had! I am not so good at languages.

~Wendy

The only problem with that is the First Year Greek sometimes isn't the Koine Greek, which will prove basically useless in translating the original books. Koine was the 'vulgar' or 'slang' Greek used at the time, also in relation to the oral traditions. If you do decide to take the class though and need any help, I'd be glad to assist.

One of my concentrations was biblical languages. Boring to some, but fun for me.

I think if you don't take time to consider the original language then you're missing out on a lot. One of the bricks in the foundation of my beliefs is what Jesus said to the Pharisees as they pressed him to answer when the kingdom of God would come. In Luke 17:21 he explains to them that it will NOT come with physical observation - that you won't be able to say, "It is here or it is there." Rather, the kingdom of God is within you.

Christianity has misrepresented this powerful and liberating truth.

The Greek for "within you" is "entos humon" which literally means "within you" however Christianity explains that Jesus was referring to himself - that HE was amongst them physically. This is silly. His direction is that it's NOT a physical realm but rather a realm within us all. Charlie Chaplin read it and understood it this way as well as he referenced it as such in his closing speech in his movie The Great Dictator.

Considering the original Greek reveals what Jesus said more clearly. The problem is that the church loses control when you recognize that the kingdom of God is within you but they maintain control when you don't.

The Gnostics took this a bit further and quoted Jesus as saying that if you bring forward that which is within you then you shall be saved and if you don't then you'll surely perish.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

So if it is a literal story then why didn't Adam and Eve die when they ate of the tree...?

If you take the story for the purposes in which it was meant (to tell a story and give a lesson, since it is from the Torah) then they did die, as in their life as it was promised them was stripped away and they died of that life and were exiled into a new one. Death and birth and rebirth isn't always cut and dry. Open your mind to alternative explainations instead of trying to force your perception of inaccuracy on those who would think otherwise.

No. God told them very directly: IN THAT DAY YOU SHALL DIE.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Open your mind to alternative explainations instead of trying to force your perception of inaccuracy on those who would think otherwise.

Understanding the Bible has nothing to do with one's MIND. It has everything to do with the SPIRIT.

What did Jesus say? Those with ears to hear...

What ears was he talking about? The ones on your head? No. Your mind? No. He was talking about the ears of the spirit.

Look at my sig and what I've posted here so far. I would argue that I'm by far and away more "alternative" than you give me credit for!

[Wheels Of Fyre]

In studying all this I, personally, found there to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea of Biblical story as a solid fact.

Name ONE piece of "evidence".

Re-read what I said, removing your harsh bias, understand my words, and then ask me again.

Done.

So what's that one piece of evidence. You didn't name any! You just make a claim that you found a bunch of it.

[RedWingFan]

In studying all this I, personally, found there to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea of Biblical story as a solid fact.

Name ONE piece of "evidence".

Re-read what I said, removing your harsh bias, understand my words, and then ask me again.

Done.

So what's that one piece of evidence. You didn't name any! You just make a claim that you found a bunch of it.

Well If you're looking for video footage of the resurrection on the 6 o'clock news, I'm afraid your gonna be disappointed. I guess the fact that there were multiple eyewitnesses means nothing because they didn't give a sworn testimony before the U.N.

[Rhiannon]

Fyre, I think we're trying to say the same thing, just finding a difficult time communicating that. I agree with what you said on the translations, and remember that the Gnostics took their name from "Gnosis" -- "Knowledge", and at the Council of Nicea it was determined for the betterment of the newly birthed Roman-Christian Empire that the subjects take their religion from a basal, watered-down, interpretation of the original narratives. I don't say one is right and one is wrong, I don't know enough about anything to make that assumption. I'm just saying that its best to just accept that there are some things that we as humans can't, won't, and shouldn't understand, but through self-education and exploring what was left out, we can come to grasp with a fuller picture of what life is all about.

I need to edit this to add that we are being too quick to lump the Gnostics together as one concentrated group, when in fact, they were hundreds of different sects scattered over many hundreds of years. When I say gnostics I usually mean the collection of the literatures of the non-orthodox early christian societies.

[Rhiannon]

So what's that one piece of evidence. You didn't name any! You just make a claim that you found a bunch of it.

For myself, PERSONALLY. That is why I asked you to re-read that. How can I express in words the truths I find in my soul? Granted, there is archaeological evidence of certain Biblical tales, but what I was referring to I made sure to say "personally".

[Indyjoe]

So if it is a literal story then why didn't Adam and Eve die when they ate of the tree...?

If you take the story for the purposes in which it was meant (to tell a story and give a lesson, since it is from the Torah) then they did die, as in their life as it was promised them was stripped away and they died of that life and were exiled into a new one. Death and birth and rebirth isn't always cut and dry. Open your mind to alternative explainations instead of trying to force your perception of inaccuracy on those who would think otherwise.

No. God told them very directly: IN THAT DAY YOU SHALL DIE.

What is the problem with the answers? They were kicked out of the garden, separated from God. Death, the process begun.

[conversationpc]

I believe that the Bible and the story of Jesus are wonderful however I don't believe that they're at all entirely historical nor accurate accounts of reality. To say that the resurrection truly happened based on the "evidence" of the Bible is purely a matter of BELIEF. One is free to believe whatever one wants however belief doesn't make something true.

I won't get into a debate on origins here but there is actual evidence of the resurrection if you care to look at it. Yes, in the end, it does require faith to put one's trust in Jesus, but it's not a blind kind of faith.

And do you still believe in Santa Claus...?

Santa Claus, the legend, was not a real person. Jesus is.

[Rick]

I believe that the Bible and the story of Jesus are wonderful however I don't believe that they're at all entirely historical nor accurate accounts of reality. To say that the resurrection truly happened based on the "evidence" of the Bible is purely a matter of BELIEF. One is free to believe whatever one wants however belief doesn't make something true.

I won't get into a debate on origins here but there is actual evidence of the resurrection if you care to look at it. Yes, in the end, it does require faith to put one's trust in Jesus, but it's not a blind kind of faith.

And do you still believe in Santa Claus...?

Do you believe in fire, Fyre?

[Rhiannon]

And do you still believe in Santa Claus...?

Santa Claus, the legend, was not a real person. Jesus is.

Of course Jesus was a real living, breathing man... anyone who doesn't realize that hasn't even begun to study the facts.

And Santa Claus himself had a basic realistic origin.

[conversationpc]

I think if you don't take time to consider the original language then you're missing out on a lot. One of the bricks in the foundation of my beliefs is what Jesus said to the Pharisees as they pressed him to answer when the kingdom of God would come. In Luke 17:21 he explains to them that it will NOT come with physical observation - that you won't be able to say, "It is here or it is there." Rather, the kingdom of God is within you.

Historic Christianity has long believed in TWO kingdoms. One is the kingdom of which Jesus speaks here, which is not a literal kingdom. The other is a literal kingdom that is yet to come.

[conversationpc]

And Santa Claus himself had a basic realistic origin.

That's what I meant when I said Santa Claus, the legend. Of course, the legend began because of a real person but the Santa Claus that most people think about today is not the real person who actually lived.

[conversationpc]

No. God told them very directly: IN THAT DAY YOU SHALL DIE.

There are three lines of thought on this...

1 - God meant they would physically die immediately.

2 - God meant they would die in that day in the sense of "One day is as a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years is as a day".

3 - God meant they would die spiritually.

If God actually meant #1, then it would follow that he is obviously a liar and the Bible might as well be tossed in the trash.

[Rhiannon]

No. God told them very directly: IN THAT DAY YOU SHALL DIE.

There are three lines of thought on this...

1 - God meant they would physically die immediately.

2 - God meant they would die in that day in the sense of "One day is as a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years is as a day".

3 - God meant they would die spiritually.

If God actually meant #1, then it would follow that he is obviously a liar and the Bible might as well be tossed in the trash.

Exactly, once again, taking things too literally will be anyone's downfall, so God told them they would die... wouldn't you call what happened to them death? And if you think He meant it literally, then again, once someone is 'born-again' you must also believe they spontaneously re-emerge through a vagina. Right?

[Saint John]

"Religion" is complete bullshit. Whether it's a Muslim praying to Allah on his flying carpet or a Catholic praying in a church run by a pedophile, I can't think of a bigger waste of time. I went to a Catholic grammar school, high school and college. What a collossal waste of time spent in church. I would've been a much more productive human had I been tutoring a student that needed it, helping out at a homeless shelter or helping raise money for the handicapped. "Religions" have agendas...whether it be the collection box, a "holy war" or butt-fucking little boys. I have very little respect for people that need to gather together to feel good about themselves. Go out and be proactive. And any God that needs to be "worshipped" or prayed to is a narcississtic jack-off. Wake up and quit wasting your fucking time. People need actual help much more than God needs "prayers."

[conversationpc]

Open your mind to alternative explainations instead of trying to force your perception of inaccuracy on those who would think otherwise.

Understanding the Bible has nothing to do with one's MIND. It has everything to do with the SPIRIT.

What did Jesus say? Those with ears to hear...

What ears was he talking about? The ones on your head? No. Your mind? No. He was talking about the ears of the spirit.

Look at my sig and what I've posted here so far. I would argue that I'm by far and away more "alternative" than you give me credit for!

To say that it has nothing to do with the mind is flat-out wrong. There's a scripture in the New Testement (can't remember where it is right off the top of my head) that talked about how a certain group of Christians "searched the scriptures daily" to verify that what they were taught was so. Obviously, the truths in scripture need to be internalized to be of any value but God did give us a mind for a reason.

[Moon Beam]

What in holy scriptures did I miss today while
in domestic duties?, good thread kids.

[Moon Beam]

"Religion" is complete bullshit. Whether it's a Muslim praying to Allah on his flying carpet or a Catholic praying in a church run by a pedophile, I can't think of a bigger waste of time. I went to a Catholic grammar school, high school and college. What a collossal waste of time spent in church. I would've been a much more productive human had I been tutoring a student that needed it, helping out at a homeless shelter or helping raise money for the handicapped. "Religions" have agendas...whether it be the collection box, a "holy war" or butt-fucking little boys. I have very little respect for people that need to gather together to feel good about themselves. Go out and be proactive. And any God that needs to be "worshipped" or prayed to is a narcississtic jack-off. Wake up and quit wasting your fucking time. People need actual help much more than God needs "prayers."

I love how you bust the mood of things Saint John!

[Rhiannon]

What in holy scriptures did I miss today while
in domestic duties?, good thread kids.

Oh you know, hot air, mindless babble, the usual. Hi, honey.

[Rhiannon]

"Religion" is complete bullshit. Whether it's a Muslim praying to Allah on his flying carpet or a Catholic praying in a church run by a pedophile, I can't think of a bigger waste of time. I went to a Catholic grammar school, high school and college. What a collossal waste of time spent in church. I would've been a much more productive human had I been tutoring a student that needed it, helping out at a homeless shelter or helping raise money for the handicapped. "Religions" have agendas...whether it be the collection box, a "holy war" or butt-fucking little boys. I have very little respect for people that need to gather together to feel good about themselves. Go out and be proactive. And any God that needs to be "worshipped" or prayed to is a narcississtic jack-off. Wake up and quit wasting your fucking time. People need actual help much more than God needs "prayers."

I love how you bust the mood of things Saint John!

He's right... what we call "Religion" might as well be categorized with political parties, conform or be exiled, that's the mind-set. As I said earlier, I study what I can, believe what I want, and I'll be damned (no pun intended... maybe) if I would EVER classify myself with an organized group of ideals. NO WAY. Any educated human should see beyond that.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

So if it is a literal story then why didn't Adam and Eve die when they ate of the tree...?

If you take the story for the purposes in which it was meant (to tell a story and give a lesson, since it is from the Torah) then they did die, as in their life as it was promised them was stripped away and they died of that life and were exiled into a new one. Death and birth and rebirth isn't always cut and dry. Open your mind to alternative explainations instead of trying to force your perception of inaccuracy on those who would think otherwise.

No. God told them very directly: IN THAT DAY YOU SHALL DIE.

What is the problem with the answers? They were kicked out of the garden, separated from God. Death, the process begun.

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So God was lying?

No. Adam and Eve DID die THAT DAY. They died OF THE SPIRIT and were born OF THE FLESH. Before "eating" they were both "naked and unashamed" and after "eating" they were "naked and ashamed". Everyone goes through this - it's called puberty!

Then Jesus came along and said that one must be BORN AGAIN OF THE SPIRIT - baptism - the ritualistic cleansing/washing away of the flesh.

To read this story as a LITERAL and HISTORICAL one is to misread it!

[conversationpc]

"Religion" is complete bullshit. Whether it's a Muslim praying to Allah on his flying carpet or a Catholic praying in a church run by a pedophile, I can't think of a bigger waste of time. I went to a Catholic grammar school, high school and college. What a collossal waste of time spent in church. I would've been a much more productive human had I been tutoring a student that needed it, helping out at a homeless shelter or helping raise money for the handicapped. "Religions" have agendas...whether it be the collection box, a "holy war" or butt-fucking little boys. I have very little respect for people that need to gather together to feel good about themselves. Go out and be proactive. And any God that needs to be "worshipped" or prayed to is a narcississtic jack-off. Wake up and quit wasting your fucking time. People need actual help much more than God needs "prayers."

Sorry Saint John, I like you but that's a load of crap. Just sayin'...

Well, it's not a load of crap as far as your saying that people ought to be actually DOING something instead of just the modern feel-good crap. THAT I agree with. Regardless, I've never attended church to make myself feel better, to have a holy war, or to "butt-fuck" little boys.

Anyway, glad to know that you just lumped me in with all the hypocrites you apparently spent your time around.

[Rhiannon]

lumped me in with all the hypocrites.

Everybody on the planet is a hypocrite in some way. It is hypocritical to even think one is not a hypocrite. Think about it.

[conversationpc]

lumped me in with all the hypocrites.

Everybody on the planet is a hypocrite in some way. It is hypocritical to even think one is not a hypocrite. Think about it.

Agreed and I believe I've said as much on here before. But what I'm talking about are the holier-than-thou's that act all upset if they hear someone curse but behind closed doors, they treat their family, friends, or coworkers like crap. They are the people who act like a saint on Sunday and like the devil the rest of the week.

[Rhiannon]

lumped me in with all the hypocrites.

Everybody on the planet is a hypocrite in some way. It is hypocritical to even think one is not a hypocrite. Think about it.

Agreed and I believe I've said as much on here before. But what I'm talking about are the holier-than-thou's that act all upset if they hear someone curse but behind closed doors, they treat their family, friends, or coworkers like crap. They are the people who act like a saint on Sunday and like the devil the rest of the week.

True... which to avoid a debate on sociological trends in modern America I'm going to leave this at be and not comment about those people. Most of them are a product of some various psychobabble I don't even want to get into at this moment.