OT: Dem Ohio Debate

[Wally_Hatchet]

Where in the US Constitution does it say that everybody has a right to free healthcare?

[7 Wishes]

www.rawstory.com/news/2007/The_Permanen ... _1125.html

Interesting.

[Enigma869]

Below is my 6-point Health Care plan:

Offer more product - Examples include an emergency plan with low premiums and plans targeted to younger folks where they would have lower premiums but no prescription or well visit coverage. Plans such as these would make available affordable health insurance for those whose employers don't provide it for them and for those with coverage lapses while changing jobs.

In my opinion, offering plans that specifically exclude "well visit coverage", as you call it is irresponsible. The fact of the matter is that people who don't have health insurance do not get checked out by doctors, on a regular basis, and there are plenty of studies out there that confirm this. The fact that you're intimating only old and frail people fall victim to more serious diseases, and thus should have "well visit coverage" is simply ridiculous!

Further breakdown of family plans – A family with 6 kids should pay more than a family with 1 kid. I propose it should be: single, married, married+1, married2-3, married4-5, married6+.

While I actually agree with this on some level, you're really missing the big picture. Ultimately, with this plan, you're making health insurance cost-prohibitive for many families to protect the people we should be the most concerned about...children, who are dependent upon their parents!

Health Investment Accounts - Essentially, this would be akin to providing health insurance options similar to different types of life insurance options. This account could grow like a retirement account, and provide a safety net for people in their elderly years.

I think this is an idea that has some wisdom behind it, and it wouldn't be a bad option to explore the viability of!

Eliminate FREE for the poor - FREE healthcare should be available ONLY for poor KIDS, combat veterans and the severely disabled.

I couldn't disagree with this more. For the record, I make a very comfortable living, and have superb healthcare. Having said that, to simply de-value human beings because they don't have the means necessary to be able to afford health insurance is inhumane and disgusting! You seem to be of the belief that everyone who is poor in this country simply chooses to be poor. As someone who grew up in the inner city, I can tell you that couldn't be a bigger fallacy! As the great George Carlin once said the notion that "All Men Are Created Equal" is the biggest bullshit story in the universe! Just because everything is great in your utopian paradise doesn't mean you should have compassion for other people. More times than not, this country takes care of those who can't take care of themselves, and that makes me very proud to call America home!

Mandatory healthy living - If you are obese and continue to gain weight through poor diet and lack of exercise, then you lose coverage on issues that are affected through your bad decisions.

This couldn't be a more uneducated premise. I'm quite sure that you're not a physician and for you to just decide that everyone who is overweight in this country is their own problem is completely ignorant and simply not true, in many cases. I can tell you this...I know MANY people who are close friends of mine who eat more calories in a day than most people eat in three days. They NEVER, EVER exercise, and their weight is perfectly "normal", and in some cases, they are VERY thin! This doesn't mean they're all "healthy", as many of them have high blood pressure and take statins to lower their cholestorol! Your premise simply wants to pick on the people, who your eyes tell you might be at risk for heart disease, when the reality is that there are endless people with the same risk factors who are not remotely obese! I realize that many people in our country believe that obesity is a choice. I've never believed that and never will. I believe that obesity is as much of a "choice" as being gay is!

Less usage of the ER – Our ER’s are over-crowded. Primary care physicians and after-hour clinics are more appropriate places to visit for non-emergency care. This is an opportunity for private enterprise to step in.

I agree that this would be a great opporunity for private enterprise to step in. Remember, nobody is stepping in anywhere, unless the business is profitable. As long as our healthcare system remains unchanged, there will be ZERO financial incentive for anyone to begin opening for-profit "clinics" to serve those not occupying the emergency rooms in our country!


John from Boston

[7 Wishes]

Polls in Canada routinely show over 90% of the population is happy with the healthcare system.

Also, over 90% say they think their tax dollars that go into the program are part of their civic duties as Canadians and they DO NOT RESENT IT AT ALL.

What Americans have is compassion fatigue. No, on second thought...compassion is something that about half the population has none of which to speak.

[RedWingFan]

Where in the US Constitution does it say that everybody has a right to free healthcare?

Wally, libs hate the US Constitution. They wipe their feet on it on their way to search for foreign law to tear down everything that made this country great.
They always say how much they love it, then turn around and say we need to be like other countries.
That'd be like me saying how much I love my wife, then say, "I wish she would get implants to look like Salma Hayek. I wish she'd get a nose job that looked like Carrie Underwood. I wish she'd get surgery so she had abs like Jennifer Gardner, boy I really love my wife."
NO! I'm trying to corrupt her into these other chicks.

[7 Wishes]

RWF, I just think it's a difference in cultures between the two respective countries. Human rights and constitutional rights are not mutually exclusive but are often one and the same.

[Enigma869]

Where in the US Constitution does it say that everybody has a right to free healthcare?

I don't think ANY proponents of universal health care have suggested it was a Constitutional right. I think those of us who are in favor of it are simply saying we believe it's the right thing to do, as a nation. I'm pretty sure that when the U.S. Constitution was drafted, there was no such thing as health care, period, so I'm not sure what the point of even bringing up the Constitution is!


John from Boston

[RedWingFan]

RWF, I just think it's a difference in cultures between the two respective countries. Human rights and constitutional rights are not mutually exclusive but are often one and the same.

The US Constitution was written to protect us from exactly what's going on. The Bill of Rights were enacted to the full extent that "human rights" should be recognized. I understand what you're saying but, why not just throw the whole constitution out if it means nothing?

[7 Wishes]

At my Young Democrats meetings in college - where I was the President, Treasurer, and sole attendee and member - we used to routinely urinate on the Constitution just to prove our point.

[conversationpc]

It's not true. Sure some don't want to wait for cosmetic surgery.

On the other hand, Americans are going to Canada in droves for affordable drugs.

US HC sucks, period. Why, because not all have access, and last time I checked, we were all supposed to be equals. Sad.

I wish Sherrie would come in here, because frankly, I don't have the energy to do this.

Lose the delusions. It IS true that Canadians were coming into the U.S. to have procedures that they would have had to wait months for in Canada. I lived and worked in the area for years.

[conversationpc]

Polls in Canada routinely show over 90% of the population is happy with the healthcare system.

Also, over 90% say they think their tax dollars that go into the program are part of their civic duties as Canadians and they DO NOT RESENT IT AT ALL.

What Americans have is compassion fatigue. No, on second thought...compassion is something that about half the population has none of which to speak.

Polls also showed Obama was going to easily win the New Hampshire primaries.

BTW, get the hell off the damn bandwagon that claims people who don't believe in universal healthcare must not be compassionate. What a load of shit. I'm sick and tired of morons like you claiming that just because someone doesn't believe the government should screw up healthcare like it does everything else that means we must be lacking in compassion. Bull-fricking-crap.

[7 Wishes]

I do think there is a direct correlation between people who think everyone has exactly the same opportunity in life (regardless of being born into poverty or being a minority) and those who believe otherwise, and their own willingness to help out their fellow man as a matter of principle.

[conversationpc]

I do think there is a direct correlation between people who think everyone has exactly the same opportunity in life (regardless of being born into poverty or being a minority) and those who believe otherwise, and their own willingness to help out their fellow man as a matter of principle.

Bullcrap. Helping out your fellow man shouldn't be done by government forcibly removing money from people's paychecks that the government neither deserves nor knows how to spend wisely. I've given money much more intelligently to good causes than the government could ever do with it.

[RedWingFan]

Polls in Canada routinely show over 90% of the population is happy with the healthcare system.

Also, over 90% say they think their tax dollars that go into the program are part of their civic duties as Canadians and they DO NOT RESENT IT AT ALL.

What Americans have is compassion fatigue. No, on second thought...compassion is something that about half the population has none of which to speak.

Polls also showed Obama was going to easily win the New Hampshire primaries.

BTW, get the hell off the damn bandwagon that claims people who don't believe in universal healthcare must not be compassionate. What a load of shit. I'm sick and tired of morons like you claiming that just because someone doesn't believe the government should screw up healthcare like it does everything else that means we must be lacking in compassion. Bull-fricking-crap.

Dude, you might want to take it down a notch. You kinda sound like one of your frequent debate partners in this post.

[Rockindeano]

Wally, libs hate the US Constitution. They wipe their feet on it on their way to search for foreign law to tear down everything that made this country great.

If that is true, care to explain how this administration has wiped it's ass with the US Constitution the past 7 years?

You guys are such a joke. Seriously, open your fucking eyes.

[RedWingFan]

Wally, libs hate the US Constitution. They wipe their feet on it on their way to search for foreign law to tear down everything that made this country great.

If that is true, care to explain how this administration has wiped it's ass with the US Constitution the past 7 years?

You guys are such a joke. Seriously, open your fucking eyes.

How so? You referring to FISA. The F in which stands for Foreign?

[conversationpc]

BTW, get the hell off the damn bandwagon that claims people who don't believe in universal healthcare must not be compassionate. What a load of shit. I'm sick and tired of morons like you claiming that just because someone doesn't believe the government should screw up healthcare like it does everything else that means we must be lacking in compassion. Bull-fricking-crap.

Dude, you might want to take it down a notch. You kinda sound like one of your frequent debate partners in this post.

You're right. 7 Wishes is not a moron. Far from it. But what the heck am I supposed to call it when someone just throws out the "lack of compassion" card simply because you don't believe in nationalized healthcare?

My favorite lib myths...

1 - If you don't believe in nationalized healthcare, you must lack compassion for those less fortunate than you.
2 - Again with healthcare...You must be for suffering children if you don't want government-mandated healthcare.
3 - If you're against aborting an unborn child, you must not believe in equal rights for women.
4 - You're a racist if you don't support quotas.
5 - You're a homophobe if you don't support hate crime laws.

So what am I supposed to think when those kinds of accusations are thrown out there? The person is either a moron or they're lying. Unless you know someone personally, you don't just accuse them of stuff like that. Unfortunately, the left does it constantly as witnessed by Ohsherrie's persistent use of the strategy.

[conversationpc]

Wally, libs hate the US Constitution. They wipe their feet on it on their way to search for foreign law to tear down everything that made this country great.

If that is true, care to explain how this administration has wiped it's ass with the US Constitution the past 7 years?

You guys are such a joke. Seriously, open your fucking eyes.

Way to argue a point...By justifying bad behavior by bringing up other bad behavior. Brilliant.

[7 Wishes]

Universal Health Care is one program I do fully support that can only be carried out at the Federal level. That doesn't mean I ascribe to a certain set of myths or beliefs. The lack of oversight (at best) and downright ignorance (at worst) is what created the national disaster known as American Health Care, and only by starting from scratch can it be rectified.

Almost every other industrialized nation has some form of Universal Health Care.

Guess what? Out of the 28 richest democracies in the world, the United States ranks DEAD LAST in life expectancy.

[conversationpc]

Guess what? Out of the 28 richest democracies in the world, the United States ranks DEAD LAST in life expectancy.

That has a whole heck of a lot more to do with terrible eating habits than it does the healthcare system. The average American is way overweight, myself included, which leads to more heart disease, cancer, diabetes, etc.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Wally, libs hate the US Constitution. They wipe their feet on it on their way to search for foreign law to tear down everything that made this country great.

If that is true, care to explain how this administration has wiped it's ass with the US Constitution the past 7 years?

You guys are such a joke. Seriously, open your fucking eyes.

How so? You referring to FISA. The F in which stands for Foreign?

Bruce Fein, constitutional lawyer and deputy attorney general under Reagan, has been all over this.
Again, true conservatives who understand and respect their philosophy are appalled by the criminal behavior of this White House.
The rest of you are simply enablers.

[RedWingFan]

Guess what? Out of the 28 richest democracies in the world, the United States ranks DEAD LAST in life expectancy.

That has a whole heck of a lot more to do with terrible eating habits than it does the healthcare system. The average American is way overweight, myself included, which leads to more heart disease, cancer, diabetes, etc.

Dude, don't worry. The Stalinists are on the case, they're in the process of banning transfats and such. McDonald's and Burger King WILL PAY!!!!

[RedWingFan]

Wally, libs hate the US Constitution. They wipe their feet on it on their way to search for foreign law to tear down everything that made this country great.

If that is true, care to explain how this administration has wiped it's ass with the US Constitution the past 7 years?

You guys are such a joke. Seriously, open your fucking eyes.

How so? You referring to FISA. The F in which stands for Foreign?

Bruce Fein, constitutional lawyer and deputy attorney general under Reagan, has been all over this.
Again, true conservatives who understand and respect their philosophy are appalled by the criminal behavior of this White House.
The rest of you are simply enablers.

Gotta be honest with you TNC, I've never heard of him. But the Patriot Act is far less intrusive on law abiding citizens than Eminent Domain abuses that were deemed Constituional by activist judges. I think Mr. Fein would agree.

[conversationpc]

Gotta be honest with you TNC, I've never heard of him. But the Patriot Act is far less intrusive on law abiding citizens than Eminent Domain abuses that were deemed Constituional by activist judges. I think Mr. Fein would agree.

I'm not a big fan of The Patriot Act. Sure, some will bring up the fact that it hasn't been abused but the potential for abuse is still there. It's well-intentioned, in my opinion, but it's not as good as it could be.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Gotta be honest with you TNC, I've never heard of him. But the Patriot Act is far less intrusive on law abiding citizens than Eminent Domain abuses that were deemed Constituional by activist judges. I think Mr. Fein would agree.

I'm not a big fan of The Patriot Act. Sure, some will bring up the fact that it hasn't been abused but the potential for abuse is still there. It's well-intentioned, in my opinion, but it's not as good as it could be.

Already has been abused. One example that I've mentioned before...in his mass firing of US Attorneys, Bush used a clause in the Patriot Act to circumvent the standard appointment process. The Senate has since passed a bill that overturned this (thank god).

[Rockindeano]

Homework assignment for all you Cons:

Tomorrow, I am posting a thread about Karl Rove, an imprisoned Alabama Governor, and a TV station in N Alabama that wouldn't show 60 minutes that basically shed light on Roves illegal and flat out despicable act regarding this.

(note: this is linked to the unjust firings of the US attorneys)

Prepare yourself.

This story will become Huge.

And if I am amped up, we can also talk about Dick Cheney's missing emails in the Fitzgerald led trial.

[Enigma869]

Homework assignment for all you Cons:

Tomorrow, I am posting a thread about Karl Rove, an imprisoned Alabama Governor, and a TV station in N Alabama that wouldn't show 60 minutes that basically shed light on Roves illegal and flat out despicable act regarding this.

Prepare yourself.

This story will become Huge.

And if I am amped up, we can also talk about Dick Cheney's missing emails in the Fitzgerald led trial.

I have to tell you that I watched this story on 60 Minutes on Sunday night, and was appalled at the level of corruption! It's more stunning to me that some genius at a TV station in Alabama thought it was even remotely intelligent to ban 60 Minutes, because of a story that didn't show their state in the most favorable light! Nice to know we have Communists living among us! The person who made the decision to ban this episode of 60 Minutes should be fired, immediately for being a jackass!


John from Boston

[Arkansas]

Ya know, there's a lot of personal responsibility involved in 'health care'. And I don't say this just because the Huckster was the Governor of my state, but there's an awful lot more of a health crisis than there's a health care crisis. If everyone would take more responsibility in keeping themselves healthy, rather than running to a doctor for a prescription, then health care may not be such an issue.

Think about it. All the high prices of doctors and drug companies have been basically brought on us by ourselves. If we weren't such an obese nation, then maybe diabetes wouldn't be so prolific. If we took charge of our own lives, rather than insisting that 'government' do things for us, then we wouldn't be complaining about the lack of health coverage, or the expense.

For example, I was once diagnosed with AD2, and I did (briefly) the whole drug treatment regimen. But it dawned on me that I was once 6% body fat, and there's no reason why I shouldn't be now. I am living proof that dusting off the running shoes, and hitting the gym , not only restored my health, but quite obviously reduced my dependance on organized health care.

I'm no longer diabetic. I'm cholesterol free. And I have the energy of a 10 yr old.

Grow a garden. Manage your own money. And get plenty of sleep.

Take care of yourself. NEVER think that you must depend on ANYONE ELSE.

Btw, smoke is good. Booze is great. Taking personal responsibility to get off your arse and create some sweat remedies both the aforementioned. A strong body also helps keep a clear mind so that you can keep your finances conservatively in control...and growing.

And if you don't agree...then continue to sit on your a$$ and wait for someone else to take care of you. You will die sooner than I will. And I'm closer to 50 than 30.


later~

[Rockindeano]

I have to tell you that I watched this story on 60 Minutes on Sunday night, and was appalled at the level of corruption! It's more stunning to me that some genius at a TV station in Alabama thought it was even remotely intelligent to ban 60 Minutes, because of a story that didn't show their state in the most favorable light!

John from Boston

Um, that's NOT the reason.

The station manager said his satellite "went down" during that story. However, Dan Abrams is on this story and won't let it go. The station is a HUGE Bush contributor. Alabamans have asked for it to be replayed, but the station will not do it.

Meanwhile, the Democratic Governor sits in jail, and the judge, another Bush appointee, is sitting on papers that will allow an appeal to take place. A simple transcript is all that is needed and he will not release it. People believe they are trying to wait out the election. This is really rotten. How is Karl Rove a free man? Seriously, he should be in prison.

[squirt1]

Deano- It goes on both ways. The news was pretty good in the days of Huntley Brinkly and EARLY Dan Rather. As time went on it became opinion news/journalism. Now we all know that we have to get our news from many sources.