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Postby Michigan Girl » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:32 am

SherriBerry wrote:It is clear from Joe's rants that he has serious issues regarding women having any dominion over their own bodies - I daresay he would like to turn the clock back to the 18th century when women were little more than property. I support the right of everyone to their beliefs and to be able to express those beliefs, but what he expressed was a vitriol that goes beyond the abortion debate.

lol...joepa may have a bit of a neanderthal approach, but I daresay, it reads as though
he is speaking from the heart... same as most here. Good points made by all!! :wink:
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Postby KenTheDude » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:35 am

Until the current law is changed, the pro-lifers have no leg to stand on. It's really that simple.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:39 am

Ever seen an abortion? Or know the mechanics of the different methods used to abort?
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Postby Melissa » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:57 am

Pro-choice is not pro-abortion, please don't mistake that. No I don't find acceptable at all what Natalie described, that's why I specified I can't imagine it after there is possibility of viability outside the womb. But that doesn't mean I think the choice during early first trimester should be taken away from women, especially in cases of rape, incest, etc. Situations like that a woman should never be forced to go through with a pregnancy, and that is the main reason I remain pro-choice, I would never want things to ever become that those situations are forced upon women. What would you do if some monster raped your wife, she became pregnant from that rape, and told you she did not want to go through with the pregnancy? As a pro-lifer what would you say to her? How would you treat her? Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion.

(Natalie I have a question strictly for you and strictly medical, since it was discussed at work not too long ago and all of us were curious- at how many weeks does a life-threatening situation for the mother turn from emergency termination to emergency delivery? Or is there no clear rule and is it parental decision for resuscitation? Case in point, 23 weeks, mom develops severe HELLP syndrome, baby taken via emergency CS, weight 445 grams (I cringed when I first took report on her and heard that), apgars 6 and 7. I can't imagine what they went through to resuscitate her at that size, truly amazing. Are there actual guidelines, or is it parental decision at any point?)
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Postby bluejeangirl76 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:00 am

Red13JoePa wrote:Ever seen an abortion? Or know the mechanics of the different methods used to abort?


What's that got to do with anything? I don't believe anyone ever stated it was a joyous process to go through or look at. We can probably all agree it's not. But fact is, it's a legal medical procedure regardless of how it's done. Are we going to start posting pictures now to get the point across, like the PETA group I saw outside McDs over the weekend with posters of scalded chickens? :roll:

And is that going to really change anything for people IN that position? No. Women were given the right to choose and the ONLY people whose business it is WHAT a woman chooses to do are the two people who made that baby.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:07 am

bluejeangirl76 wrote:
Red13JoePa wrote:Ever seen an abortion? Or know the mechanics of the different methods used to abort?


What's that got to do with anything? I don't believe anyone ever stated it was a joyous process to go through or look at. We can probably all agree it's not. But fact is, it's a legal medical procedure regardless of how it's done. Are we going to start posting pictures now to get the point across, like the PETA group I saw outside McDs over the weekend with posters of scalded chickens? :roll:

And is that going to really change anything for people IN that position? No. Women were given the right to choose and the ONLY people whose business it is WHAT a woman chooses to do are the two people who made that baby.


:lol:
Typical of the movement, fear of having the actual process shown in pictures, diagrams and descriptions.

What are we hiding? If it is so righteous, where's the fear in actually having pictures and videos of the process?

We're damn sure allowed to have videos of breast augmentations and facelifts and other operations but to show abortions is no fair, dirty ball-playing. :P

Screeching about the "choice of the two people who made that baby (interesting word choice, btw)," what about the choice of the baby, as you call it?

Edit and another thing "IN that position?" :lol: In all the arguments you have raised the people PUT themselves in such an untenable situation through pathetic judgement, poor work ethic and ambition and low self-respect!
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Postby Angel » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:16 am

Melissa wrote:(Natalie I have a question strictly for you and strictly medical, since it was discussed at work not too long ago and all of us were curious- at how many weeks does a life-threatening situation for the mother turn from emergency termination to emergency delivery? Or is there no clear rule and is it parental decision for resuscitation? Case in point, 23 weeks, mom develops severe HELLP syndrome, baby taken via emergency CS, weight 445 grams (I cringed when I first took report on her and heard that), apgars 6 and 7. I can't imagine what they went through to resuscitate her at that size, truly amazing. Are there actual guidelines, or is it parental decision at any point?)

I believe it is up to the parents-at least in my experience it has been. The 22-24 weekers are the difficult ones since they are right on the verge of viability-obviously the 20-21 weekers (and less) there would be no point to try to resuscitate because they simply don't have the anatomy to survive at that point. But again.....dating can always be off by up to 2 weeks especially by LMP or by ultrasound if it was done after about 16 weeks so even that's difficult. In most situations (at least in my experience, but things can be vastly different even in other parts of the counrty) when a babe is on the verge of viablity we tell the parents that there is a chance we may not be able to resuscitate and just plan to see how the baby looks-if it looks more like a 24 weeker then we'll try-if it looks more like a 19 weeker then we won't. So, there's your precisely vague answer. :lol: It's just one of those difficult questions...it's always easier if the babe will just read the instruction book and wait until at least 28ish weeks to start causing any problems. :lol:

BTW, 6/7 are fairly decent Apgars for a 23 weeker! How did the babe do?
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Postby bluejeangirl76 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:23 am

Red13JoePa wrote:
bluejeangirl76 wrote:
Red13JoePa wrote:Ever seen an abortion? Or know the mechanics of the different methods used to abort?


What's that got to do with anything? I don't believe anyone ever stated it was a joyous process to go through or look at. We can probably all agree it's not. But fact is, it's a legal medical procedure regardless of how it's done. Are we going to start posting pictures now to get the point across, like the PETA group I saw outside McDs over the weekend with posters of scalded chickens? :roll:

And is that going to really change anything for people IN that position? No. Women were given the right to choose and the ONLY people whose business it is WHAT a woman chooses to do are the two people who made that baby.


:lol:
Typical of the movement, fear of having the actual process shown in pictures, diagrams and descriptions.

What are we hiding? If it is so righteous, where's the fear in actually having pictures and videos of the process?

We're damn sure allowed to have videos of breast augmentations and facelifts and other operations but to show abortions is no fair, dirty ball-playing. :P


Oh, no no... not what I meant - no it is not about "fear of having it shown..." Not hiding, not afraid of seeing it - I've seen it... what I was getting at is that the pictures always come out as some sort of weapon of guilt. We know what the process is and I don't believe that seeing a bunch of pictures is really going to change that many peoples' mind about something they already believe. And this is not specific to the abortion issue. Last Saturday on Hollywood Blvd, there was a huge group of people with big posters on sticks of mangled chickens. This did not stop me from ordering chicken at PF Changs the next day.

One of the protesters tried to give me some flyer and said she wanted to explain why they were out there. "I said "No thanks. I pretty much much got the idea." I did not need it explained to me with a poster. I knew why they were there and showing me a dead defeathered pink chicken on a poster wasn't going to make me believe what they believe. It's unnecessary.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:35 am

bluejeangirl76 wrote:Oh, no no... not what I meant - no it is not about "fear of having it shown..." Not hiding, not afraid of seeing it - I've seen it... what I was getting at is that the pictures always come out as some sort of weapon of guilt. We know what the process is and I don't believe that seeing a bunch of pictures is really going to change that many peoples' mind about something they already believe.


Maybe there's a reason for the guilt that seeing it causes.
And if seeing it won't change many peoples' minds, I can live with that (there is an surplus population of dopes in the world after all), I'm cool with that too as long as some of the RIGHT peoples' minds, like Abby Johnson the former director of "Planned Parenthood ( :lol: greatest name ever, btw)" in Bryan, Texas get changed we'll be on the right path.
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Postby Melissa » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:46 am

Angel wrote:BTW, 6/7 are fairly decent Apgars for a 23 weeker! How did the babe do?


Amazingly well actually. She did cry, so was given Curosurf via ETT in the OR. Grade 1 IVH resolved, inguinal hernia repair, ligated PDA. Mild thrombocytopenia but resolved. Did have HGB C on first newborn screen, have to wait for HGB electrophoresis to be done in a few months. Otherwise only persistent issues so far are osteopenia (of course) and waiting to hear from peds. opth. about the retinopathy.

And yeah I'm sure it's difficult even when going by LMP, because that's not always the most accurate way to determine gestation, since not all women ovulate exactly on day 14, only perfect 28 dayers :lol:
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Postby bluejeangirl76 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:53 am

Red13JoePa wrote:
bluejeangirl76 wrote:Oh, no no... not what I meant - no it is not about "fear of having it shown..." Not hiding, not afraid of seeing it - I've seen it... what I was getting at is that the pictures always come out as some sort of weapon of guilt. We know what the process is and I don't believe that seeing a bunch of pictures is really going to change that many peoples' mind about something they already believe.


Maybe there's a reason for the guilt that seeing it causes.


I also never said it causes guilt. I said the activists use it to try and cause guilt. I can't speak for others but things like that don't cause me to feel guilty. Of course it isn't fun to look at, but a picture or video isn't going to change my beliefs. I suppose that makes a horrible godless monster of some sort but if there's a god, it's for him to deal with me on, and not anyone else.

I also never even said I would do it. I just believe that women should have the option to choose. And that's all I'm saying about personal experience because it's none of anyone's friggin' business but mine.
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Postby conversationpc » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:00 am

Here's what it boils down to for me...Killing an innocent human life is wrong and, except when the life of the mother is in jeopardy, it's really unnecessary. And before you try to tell me that I am not concerned about the mental well-being of the mother, her feelings, etc., let me call BS on that. My wife and I were foster parents and have also adopted, so we do our part when we can, not that I want recognition for it. It's what caring people are supposed to do.

Those who support the right for abortion will argue that the unborn child is not a real human person or that he/she is not alive. That is flat-out bunk. But let's pretend that we just don't know when life begins. Why don't we just use common sense in that case and err on the side of safety that perhaps life MAY begin at conception instead of just using the mentality that, oh well, we'll just kill the child and hope that he/she really wasn't alive to begin with?

Let me finish by saying that I am sympathetic to women who've had abortions and why they might've chosen to have one in the first place. I know women who've had abortions and I don't condemn them, belittle them, etc. My calling as a follower of Jesus Christ is to stand up for what I believe, forgive, and show His love to them.
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Postby Angel » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:02 am

Melissa wrote:Amazingly well actually. She did cry, so was given Curosurf via ETT in the OR. Grade 1 IVH resolved, inguinal hernia repair, ligated PDA. Mild thrombocytopenia but resolved. Did have HGB C on first newborn screen, have to wait for HGB electrophoresis to be done in a few months. Otherwise only persistent issues so far are osteopenia (of course) and waiting to hear from peds. opth. about the retinopathy.

And yeah I'm sure it's difficult even when going by LMP, because that's not always the most accurate way to determine gestation, since not all women ovulate exactly on day 14, only perfect 28 dayers :lol:

So basically, what you're saying is, if there was a problem that preemies usually have, this girl had it!!!! :lol: :wink: Sounds like she's a 'lil trooper!

AND, not all women are great historians, and of course, the ones that are at high risk for preterm birth are naturally the ones that seek late prenatal care so even a dating US would be inaccurate. Did mama get Celestone?

I love talkin' about babies, we could do this all day!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:
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Postby Melissa » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:16 am

Angel wrote:
Melissa wrote:Amazingly well actually. She did cry, so was given Curosurf via ETT in the OR. Grade 1 IVH resolved, inguinal hernia repair, ligated PDA. Mild thrombocytopenia but resolved. Did have HGB C on first newborn screen, have to wait for HGB electrophoresis to be done in a few months. Otherwise only persistent issues so far are osteopenia (of course) and waiting to hear from peds. opth. about the retinopathy.

And yeah I'm sure it's difficult even when going by LMP, because that's not always the most accurate way to determine gestation, since not all women ovulate exactly on day 14, only perfect 28 dayers :lol:

So basically, what you're saying is, if there was a problem that preemies usually have, this girl had it!!!! :lol: :wink: Sounds like she's a 'lil trooper!

AND, not all women are great historians, and of course, the ones that are at high risk for preterm birth are naturally the ones that seek late prenatal care so even a dating US would be inaccurate. Did mama get Celestone?

I love talkin' about babies, we could do this all day!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


Yeah pretty amazing. Had pulmonary hemorrhage too, forgot to mention that, but resolved. Not sure if she received Celestone specifically, being the ped we just got a "yes" for maternal steroids on report, and told mom had presented with severe chest pain, increased BP of course with the HELLP. How often do you see HELLP? Seems kind of rare, only 2nd case I've seen.
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Postby ProgRocker53 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:37 am

I don't judge or condemn people who have had an abortion.. but.. apart from cases involving incest and the mother's life being in proven danger.. I believe it's very wrong.
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Postby Angel » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:48 am

Melissa wrote:Yeah pretty amazing. Had pulmonary hemorrhage too, forgot to mention that, but resolved. Not sure if she received Celestone specifically, being the ped we just got a "yes" for maternal steroids on report, and told mom had presented with severe chest pain, increased BP of course with the HELLP. How often do you see HELLP? Seems kind of rare, only 2nd case I've seen.

I see "mild" HELLP syndrome maybe a few times a year but have only seen a few cases of really severe HELLP....interestingly, the worst case I saw, mom had normal BP. It is often associated with PIH but not always. It is scary for sure, for mom and baby (and nurses!! :wink: )!!!
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Postby Melissa » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:03 am

Angel wrote:
Melissa wrote:Yeah pretty amazing. Had pulmonary hemorrhage too, forgot to mention that, but resolved. Not sure if she received Celestone specifically, being the ped we just got a "yes" for maternal steroids on report, and told mom had presented with severe chest pain, increased BP of course with the HELLP. How often do you see HELLP? Seems kind of rare, only 2nd case I've seen.

I see "mild" HELLP syndrome maybe a few times a year but have only seen a few cases of really severe HELLP....interestingly, the worst case I saw, mom had normal BP. It is often associated with PIH but not always. It is scary for sure, for mom and baby (and nurses!! :wink: )!!!


Yep definitely, esp. with how fast the mom's liver function can deteriorate, and the risk for hemorrhage making surgery even more risky than it already is.
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Postby Arianddu » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:05 am

Red13JoePa wrote:Edit and another thing "IN that position?" :lol: In all the arguments you have raised the people PUT themselves in such an untenable situation through pathetic judgement, poor work ethic and ambition and low self-respect!


How do you know? Did I tell you? Did you ever ask? Like I said before, don't presume to know anything about my situation or my reasons. It's about as accurate as me deciding that you are a wife beater because hey, that's what every guy who ever gets drunk does.

I will say again - you are entitled to hold your beliefs about the ethics of abortion. You do not have any way of knowing anything about any woman who was faced with the decision of whether or not to abort, and to claim that you do is the greatest bullshit.
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Postby Arianddu » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:06 am

Red13JoePa wrote:Ever seen an abortion?


Yes. Have you?
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Postby Red13JoePa » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:08 am

Arianddu wrote:
Red13JoePa wrote:Edit and another thing "IN that position?" :lol: In all the arguments you have raised the people PUT themselves in such an untenable situation through pathetic judgement, poor work ethic and ambition and low self-respect!


How do you know? Did I tell you? Did you ever ask? Like I said before, don't presume to know anything about my situation or my reasons. It's about as accurate as me deciding that you are a wife beater because hey, that's what every guy who ever gets drunk does.

I will say again - you are entitled to hold your beliefs about the ethics of abortion. You do not have any way of knowing anything about any woman who was faced with the decision of whether or not to abort, and to claim that you do is the greatest bullshit.


You are taking it way too personally.
Above I posted that I am not possibly able to speak to YOUR specific situation, what I am speaking too are the overall demographics/statistics of those who get abortions.
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Postby Arianddu » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:19 am

conversationpc wrote:Here's what it boils down to for me...Killing an innocent human life is wrong and, except when the life of the mother is in jeopardy, it's really unnecessary. And before you try to tell me that I am not concerned about the mental well-being of the mother, her feelings, etc., let me call BS on that. My wife and I were foster parents and have also adopted, so we do our part when we can, not that I want recognition for it. It's what caring people are supposed to do.

Those who support the right for abortion will argue that the unborn child is not a real human person or that he/she is not alive. That is flat-out bunk. But let's pretend that we just don't know when life begins. Why don't we just use common sense in that case and err on the side of safety that perhaps life MAY begin at conception instead of just using the mentality that, oh well, we'll just kill the child and hope that he/she really wasn't alive to begin with?

Let me finish by saying that I am sympathetic to women who've had abortions and why they might've chosen to have one in the first place. I know women who've had abortions and I don't condemn them, belittle them, etc. My calling as a follower of Jesus Christ is to stand up for what I believe, forgive, and show His love to them.


Thank you. You and I rarely see eye-to-eye on religion or ethical debates, but you've never shown anything but respect to me, and I've never felt anything but the same in return.
Shall we agree to disagree, and move on to a more pleasant topic?

Top call on being a foster parent, btw - I've done relief care for the children of cancer sufferers, taking them out camping or on holiday for a few days at a time and after 3 or 4 days I'm worn out. Usually we do it so the parents can have a few days where they don't have to worry about protecting the kids from seeing Mum or Dad being sick with chemo, or so they can have a few days to break down and deal with what's going on without worrying about upsetting their children. However, there are nearly always issues with the kids; either they ask us tough questions because they are worried about what's going on, or they can finally let go and grieve without worrying their parents, or they act out on their frustration and fear. It's tough to deal with, but I always know that after a few days I'm giving them back to loving, caring parents. Having the strength to take on children from damaged homes long term, dealing with all the issues that entails, maybe having to face giving those children back to the family that messed up so badly in the first place - that's a hell of a lot of strength and compassion. The world should be more thankful for people like you and your wife who can do that.
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Postby Arianddu » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:23 am

Red13JoePa wrote:You are taking it way too personally.
Above I posted that I am not possibly able to speak to YOUR specific situation, what I am speaking too are the overall demographics/statistics of those who get abortions.


But every time you make those sweeping generalisations, you are speaking to my situation, and inaccurately. How do you know what the overall demographics and statistics are? Because those I have seen do not match the people you describe. There isn't any way I can take what you say but personally.
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Postby Jana » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:10 am

Arianddu wrote:
Red13JoePa wrote:You are taking it way too personally.
Above I posted that I am not possibly able to speak to YOUR specific situation, what I am speaking too are the overall demographics/statistics of those who get abortions.


But every time you make those sweeping generalisations, you are speaking to my situation, and inaccurately. How do you know what the overall demographics and statistics are? Because those I have seen do not match the people you describe. There isn't any way I can take what you say but personally.


When my friend in high school was sixteen, she became pregnant by her first boyfriend. He left her when he found out she was pregnant. Since the age of 14 she had been taking care of her two younger siblings. One, five years younger, was mentally disabled. All the kids lived with their father, who was a drunk and in ill health from his alcoholism and actually died when she was 18, and her mother had left them several years b/f to live with another man. The mom was a raging alcoholic. So, essentially, my friend was raising herself and her siblings, taking care of an ill father, and working to help pay the mortgage. She got an abortion. And at her young age she didn't make that decision lightly. She is a great person and now married with children and still takes care of her brother financially and even her alcoholic mother. These "sweeping generalizations." as Ari put it, across the board of the type of people who get abortions is what bothers me, not the stating of beliefs. No, I would never get an abortion nor anyone in my family would, but I would never judge across the board people who do. I think many are in their teens probably who are in dire straits at the time with little family support or a host of other reasons and it's their personal story and decision, but I doubt it's an easy decision for most. Re the majority being all lazy poor people, the LAZY POOR are living off government subsidence as a career and the more children the better for them b/c they get extra money, so aren't getting abortions. Just what I've gleaned from years working in the court system.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:16 am

They're not "sweeping generalizations" they are statistics, and easily verifiable ones.

Generally like 1% of abortions occur in cases of rape or incest and the fact is most of them occur due to convenience (interference w/ work, etc) or "social circumstances" ie unmarried women who got pregant and decided they "couldn't afford" it.
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Postby Rockindeano » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:21 am

Just a question JoePa-

I see you are speaking as a devout Catholic and that's all good and well I suppose, but do you also support the Church's wish to ban prophylactics?
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Postby Michigan Girl » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:22 am

Jana wrote:
Arianddu wrote:
Red13JoePa wrote:You are taking it way too personally.
Above I posted that I am not possibly able to speak to YOUR specific situation, what I am speaking too are the overall demographics/statistics of those who get abortions.


But every time you make those sweeping generalisations, you are speaking to my situation, and inaccurately. How do you know what the overall demographics and statistics are? Because those I have seen do not match the people you describe. There isn't any way I can take what you say but personally.


When my friend in high school was sixteen, she became pregnant by her first boyfriend. He left her when he found out she was pregnant. Since the age of 14 she had been taking care of her two younger siblings. One, five years younger, was mentally disabled. All the kids lived with their father, who was a drunk and in ill health from his alcoholism and actually died when she was 18, and her mother had left them several years b/f to live with another man. The mom was a raging alcoholic. So, essentially, my friend was raising herself and her siblings, taking care of an ill father, and working to help pay the mortgage. She got an abortion. And at her young age she didn't make that decision lightly. She is a great person and now married with children and still takes care of her brother financially and even her alcoholic mother. These "sweeping generalizations." as Ari put it, across the board of the type of people who get abortions is what bothers me, not the stating of beliefs. No, I would never get an abortion nor anyone in my family would, but I would never judge across the board people who do. I think many are in their teens probably who are in dire straits at the time with little family support or a host of other reasons and it's their personal story and decision, but I doubt it's an easy decision for most. Re the majority being all lazy poor people, the LAZY POOR are living off government subsidence as a career and the more children the better for them b/c they get extra money, so aren't getting abortions. Just what I've gleaned from years working in the court system.
Would this be considered a generalization?!?! :?
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Postby Red13JoePa » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:28 am

Rockindeano wrote:Just a question JoePa-

I see you are speaking as a devout Catholic and that's all good and well I suppose, but do you also support the Church's wish to ban prophylactics?



Just an answer: yes. act F&*%ng responsibly, be accountable and you've got no issues with "unwanted" pregnancies.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:34 am

Jana wrote:When my friend in high school was sixteen, she became pregnant by her first boyfriend.



Oooo I love you so much that this is going to hurt, but stop right there. :lol:

I already lose sympathy for her and begin to hold her accountable for responsibly raising her child or to carry it and give it up for abortion.

The sentence itself appears to remove most if not all culpability on her part, too.
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Postby Ehwmatt » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:50 am

Red13JoePa wrote:
Jana wrote:When my friend in high school was sixteen, she became pregnant by her first boyfriend.



Oooo I love you so much that this is going to hurt, but stop right there. :lol:

I already lose sympathy for her and begin to hold her accountable for responsibly raising her child or to carry it and give it up for abortion.

The sentence itself appears to remove most if not all culpability on her part, too.


I honestly don't have much sympathy for this situation either. I wasn't having sex at sixteen and a good number of kids I knew weren't either. That wasn't that long ago either. Contrary to popular belief, not all kids begin knocking boots once they hit 12 or 13 these days.
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Postby S2M » Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:00 am

SherriBerry wrote:
The only bullshit in this thread is coming from you (and StocktontoMalone). Everyone else has posted their opinion in a respectful manner, no matter what that opinion may be. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated that you are an ignorant and hateful individual who describes any woman who would consider an abortion as "promiscuous" or "loose" - why don't you just write what you mean and state that you think any woman who has sex outside of marriage is a slut?

If you are a Christian, you likely believe that one day you will be judged by God - luckily for you, He will judge you with greater understanding and compassion than you practice as you judge others, an act even Jesus didn't feel righteous enough to take upon himself. No one denies your right to be opposed to abortion, but quite frankly your ridiculous rants only serve to support your opposition.


Please educate me on how my comments were 'bullshit'. My stance was that if women continue to use abortions as 'birth control AFTER the fact'...then that is the issue. That and being really tired of the whole, 'My body, my choice' agenda. Lamest excuse I ever heard. Memo: BTW, it is your body. But funny, it is against the law to help someone youthanize themselves. Double-standard? Methinks it is...
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